Known individual not in civil register

P. Breathnach · 15-04-2011 5:50pm #1

Now that I have sorted all my great-grandparents, Herself is looking for help to get to the same point.

She knows of the marriage of a pair of great-grandparents, William Aherne and Mary Brophy, in Kilbride on the Meath-Cavan border on 30 January 1887. It does not appear to have made it into the Civil Register.

Her current aim is to trace back the Brophy line, so she would like to get a birth record for Mary Brophy. She has a fix on her place and date of birth from her gravestone (Dublin, August 12, 1870 -- yes, she married at the age of 16). Her birth seems not to have been recorded in the civil register either.

A search in the Ireland Births and Baptisms 1620-1881 index produces a plausible hit (one day difference in d.o.b.) and gives names for both parents. Searching with the names of both parents produces a family with six children born, at least one of whom probably died in infancy, because the same name was used twice. [Search terms: Last name Brophy; Place Dublin (match exactly); Date 1870 +/-10; Father first name John; Mother first name Jane.]

Question: Can she use these findings to lead her to documents, and extend her knowledge further? Or should she accept that this is as far as she can go along this road?

shanew · 15-04-2011 6:08pm

it looks like there is a parish record of the marriage on www.rootsireland.ie

a William Aherne and Mary Brophy both married in the same parish in the same year .... not confirmed until you pay for the record but looks likely.

Parish is Kilbride RC, Meath

Since it's a parish record it may show a little less details than a civil cert.. i.e no occupations

Shane

P. Breathnach · 16-04-2011 12:39pm

She had found it in rootsireland. That's what put her on the road.

She also found a distant cousin who is researching a separate line of the Ahern family, and who saw the Kilbride church records, and has the Ahern-Brophy marriage noted for a different date: 30 January 1888, one year later than rootsireland. But it's a note the cousin made, and not a copy of the entry, and it was peripheral to the cousin's project.

The birth of the first child in November 1888 proves nothing conclusive. It was a fruitful marriage (9 children) but over a period of 25 years rather than the baby-every-year that you find in some families.

What is intriguing is that both her birth and her marriage seem to have escaped the civil register.

The record of one of her apparent siblings (1868) gives an address: High Street, Dublin. Has anybody got a trade directory from about that date and the time to check if there is any record of a Brophy there?

shanew · 19-04-2011 8:15pm

no sign of any Brophy households or businesses on High Street in Thom's 1868 or 1872. Is there a street number mentioned on that record ?

S.

P. Breathnach · 19-04-2011 10:11pm

Yet again, thank you Shane.

No house number on the LDS index. It's not clear what record the index points to. It's "Ireland Births and Baptisms 1620-1881".

I have been scrabbling around, and have found a William Brophy at 10 or 13 High Street in earlier trade directories. He was in the wool trade. The father of the Brophy I am checking was John Brophy, but William could possibly be connected -- perhaps his father.

The mother of the Brophy I am checking was named Jane Fegan and I got a Fegan in High Street, at Number 13: http://www.libraryireland.com/Dublin-Street-Directory-1862/87.php. That building is still (or again) a licensed premises, The Pale.

It looks as if Griffith's Valuation for High Street has not yet been digitised.

I didn't spot anything relevant in the church records in irishgenealogy.ie (but, of course, I might have blinked).

So there seem to be possibilities for both her parents being originally from High Street. But it will be one helluva challenge to establish if there are connections between these people.

shanew · 20-04-2011 7:53am

A cert for that birth may show a more detailed address. The place of birth given on extracted records is usually a superintendents district, or very occasionally a street.

Further records are due to be added to the IrishGenealogy website later this year, so might be worth another search then.

Shane

shanew · 20-04-2011 8:30am

checking the earlier directories gives a few interesting results...

Thom's 1852

10 High Street
- William Brophy, wholesale woolen and Manchester warehouse

13 High Street
- Wm. Fagan, grocer, tea, wine and spirit dealer
- Fagan's commercial Hotel

1850

10 High Street
- William Brophy, wholesale woolen and Manchester warehouse

13 High Street
- Wm. Fagan, groc. & hotel keep.

Shane

P. Breathnach · 20-04-2011 11:00am

I'm losing track! Time to step back and review.

We are trying to track a Mary Brophy who, according to her headstone, was born in Dublin on 12 August 1870. The nearest we could trace was one born on 11 August 1870. We are satisfied that she is the same person, because we have some supporting evidence for that belief. Her parents were John Brophy and Jane Fegan/Fagan. We can find six children born to that couple, and the only place of birth given was for the first of them. That's the basis for our interest in High Street.

I went back to the church records in irishgenealogy, and scored a couple of hits on two of the other children, and now have another address: 3 Merchant's Quay. According to Thom's for 1862, it was the business address for Ryan's paper merchants, and I find a reference to a Ryan at that address in 1877. So I am considering the possibility of the Brophy family living in rented accommodation above.

I don't know if the High Street address for the first child is incorrect; obviously the young couple could have moved between the birth of the first child and the later ones. One possibility that I am wondering about is that she was linked with 13 High Street, and her first child was born at her parents' home. It might have been that she and her husband lived there before finding a place of their own, or she might have gone back there to be looked after by her mother.

So we are still interested in the Fegan/Fagan connection in High Street as a line worth pursuing. The Brophy connection with High Street seems weaker, and it might be put on the back burner for now.

To Shane (and others more experienced in genealogical research than we are): do we seem to be making reasonable judgements on what to pursue, and what to put aside?

Dun · 20-04-2011 11:41am

Is this the birth? I can get you a copy of this tomorrow evening if it is, since I'm doing some research anyway.

Mary Jane Brophy
Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958
birth: 1870 — Dublin South

record title: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958
name: Mary Jane Brophy
registration district: Dublin South
event type: BIRTHS
registration quarter and year: 1870
volume number: 12
page number: 652

There's also this one:
Mary Anne Brophy
Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958
birth: 1870 — Dublin North

record title: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958
name: Mary Anne Brophy
registration district: Dublin North
event type: BIRTHS
registration quarter and year: 1870
volume number: 2
page number: 722

But since it's Volume 2, it would suggest a birth in January, February or March. Volume 12 above suggests July to September.

shanew · 20-04-2011 11:46am

do you have a marriage cert for Mary Brophy ?

It would show father's name and occupation and help confirm that you are following the correct family. It would also be worth ordering the corresponding civil cert for that extracted record - could also help confirm the link and maybe give you clues re address and father's occupation.

(crossed with Dun's post...)

Shane

shanew · 20-04-2011 11:50am

ignore me... I forgot that it was the marriage for the same Mary you were looking for originally

definitely worth following up on birth certs

S.

shanew · 20-04-2011 12:04pm

had a look at the extracted births collection - and it's the Vol 12 record that matches (page number of 652 is the same as the reference in the address) :

https://www.familysearch.org/search/search/index/record-search-advanced#searchType=records&fed=true&collectionId=1584963&advanced=true&givenName=mary&surname=brophy&eventType=any&eventLocation=&eventYearFrom=1870&eventYearTo=1870&relationship=parents&fatherFirst=&fatherLast=&motherFirst=jane&motherLast=fegen&filtered=true

P. Breathnach · 20-04-2011 12:09pm

Thank you, Dun. The first one is indeed the person we are interested in. It gives the lie to what I said in post #1, because that is a record in the civil register. For some reason, the familysearch site does not bring it up unless you specify Dublin South. At least, that's the only way I have found to get it: it does not come up for me if I search on Dublin or on Ireland. And our starting position was that she was born in Dublin, but we had no clue where in Dublin.

Yes, of course the certificate would be of interest. In particular, finding her father's occupation would be very useful. So thank you very much for the offer. But we won't trouble you for it, because we are putting together a list of certificates that we will be ordering in the next few days.

shanew · 20-04-2011 12:11pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Yet again, thank you Shane.
....
No house number on the LDS index. It's not clear what record the index points to. It's "Ireland Births and Baptisms 1620-1881".
.....

just one detail to add on this.... the collection title is a little misleading since the majority of the records included (like the one for Mary Jane) are extracted from civil records. These contain a cut down version of the details from the civil birth registers and often include number on the 'address' line. This is usually the page that the record is recorded on in the register, and can be used to cross-reference with the BMD Index to order a full cert.

The address line is usually a district (registration, superintendents etc..) rather than a proper address.

S.

Dun · 20-04-2011 12:18pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Thank you, Dun. The first one is indeed the person we are interested in. It gives the lie to what I said in post #1, because that is a record in the civil register. For some reason, the familysearch site does not bring it up unless you specify Dublin South. At least, that's the only way I have found to get it: it does not come up for me if I search on Dublin or on Ireland. And our starting position was that she was born in Dublin, but we had no clue where in Dublin.

Yes, of course the certificate would be of interest. In particular, finding her father's occupation would be very useful. So thank you very much for the offer. But we won't trouble you for it, because we are putting together a list of certificates that we will be ordering in the next few days.

Well, if you're sure.. I can get it for free. Coincidentally I'll be working on both of those marriage volumes anyway because they contain the Donegal registers too, so it's no bother. I can send you an image of it, and save you €6

P. Breathnach · 20-04-2011 12:21pm

shanew wrote: »

had a look at the extracted births collection - and it's the Vol 12 record that matches (page number of 652 is the same as the reference in the address) :

https://www.familysearch.org/search/search/index/record-search-advanced#searchType=records&fed=true&collectionId=1584963&advanced=true&givenName=mary&surname=brophy&eventType=any&eventLocation=&eventYearFrom=1870&eventYearTo=1870&relationship=parents&fatherFirst=&fatherLast=&motherFirst=jane&motherLast=fegen&filtered=true

That explains something that puzzled us: what the "652, NO 2, CITY OF DUBLIN" referenced.

Perhaps you can explain this one, as it is the reason why we are looking for a High Street connection:
name: Mary Anne
gender: Female
baptism/christening date:
baptism/christening place: 720, HIGH ST, DUB, IRE
birth date: 15 Dec 1868
birthplace: High St, Dub, Ire
death date:
name note:
race:
father's name: John Brophy
father's birthplace:
father's age:
mother's name: Jane Fegan
mother's birthplace:
mother's age:
indexing project (batch) number: C70140-4
system origin: Ireland-VR
source film number: 101181
reference number: 2:29W4J0R

Are we on a wild goose chase?

shanew · 20-04-2011 12:25pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Thank you, Dun. The first one is indeed the person we are interested in. It gives the lie to what I said in post #1, because that is a record in the civil register. For some reason, the familysearch site does not bring it up unless you specify Dublin South......

the new familysearch website assumes Registration Districts for locations - which can confuse it where county and district names overlap.

For counties where this can happen It's better to try specific searches by district first - if possible. This doesn't sort the issue completely - as searches for counties with districts named the same can be unreliable. Cork Wicklow etc

S.

shanew · 20-04-2011 12:29pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That explains something that puzzled us: what the "652, NO 2, CITY OF DUBLIN" referenced.

Perhaps you can explain this one, as it is the reason why we are looking for a High Street connection:
name: Mary Anne
gender: Female
baptism/christening date:
baptism/christening place: 720, HIGH ST, DUB, IRE
birth date: 15 Dec 1868
birthplace: High St, Dub, Ire
death date:
name note:
race:
father's name: John Brophy
father's birthplace:
father's age:
mother's name: Jane Fegan
mother's birthplace:
mother's age:
indexing project (batch) number: C70140-4
system origin: Ireland-VR
source film number: 101181
reference number: 2:29W4J0R

Are we on a wild goose chase?

That refers to a different civil record.... the page number on the reference (and the different date) suggests that ... since the parents are the same, maybe this Mary died and they reused the name later ?
It happens - I've a few cases like that in my ancestors

S.

P. Breathnach · 20-04-2011 1:07pm

shanew wrote: »

That refers to a different civil record.... the page number on the reference (and the different date) suggests that ... since the parents are the same, maybe this Mary died and they reused the name later ?
It happens - I've a few cases like that in my ancestors.

Yes, indeed, Shane, this Mary did indeed die in infancy, before Herself's great-grandmother was born, so we are satisfied it is the same family. I have found the re-use of names in the families of three of my grandparents and in my father's family, so I imagine it was fairly common in the past (it would be seen as very strange nowadays).

But can you say what civil record is referenced? It's the only mention of High Street that we have, and I am wondering if giving High Street as the birthplace might be simply an interpolation of the address of the registrar's office -- that the birthplace was in the area served by an office in High Street. There was a dispensary on High Street: I think that sometimes these were used as local registration offices.

If that is the case, I might suspend (pending further enquiries) the suggestion that I made to Herself that we go for a drink in The Pale, as the possibility that it is an ancestral place is weakening.

shanew · 20-04-2011 1:27pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

.....
....
But can you say what civil record is referenced? It's the only mention of High Street that we have, and I am wondering if giving High Street as the birthplace might be simply an interpolation of the address of the registrar's office -- that the birthplace was in the area served by an office in High Street. There was a dispensary on High Street: I think that sometimes these were used as local registration offices.
....

for the 11 Aug 1870 record ?

name: Mary Jane Brophy
registration district: Dublin South
event type: Birth
quarter and year: 1870
volume :12 / Page : 652

You would need to order a cert to confirm the actual address.

I can confirm that there was both a dispensary and a registrars office on High Street - saw it listed yesterday when I search for your Brophys and Fagans.. Addresses are rare on extracted births - usually they are district. I hadn't clicked that it might be the Registration Office rather than the place of birth - but that seems like a good theory to me...

here's the lists of children I found ion the extracted records :

Kate Brophy / 09 Jun 1867 / 577, DUBLIN
Mary Anne / 15 Dec 1868 / 720, High St, Dublin
Mary Jane / 11 Aug 1870 / 652, No 2, City Of Dublin, Ire
Anne Brophy / 31 Jan 1873 / South Dublin
Johanna Brophy / 14 Feb 1875 / No 2 South City, City Of Dublin
Jane Brophy / 30 Dec 1876 / Dublin
Ellen Brophy / 27 Aug 1878, Dublin
Anne Brophy / 31 Jan 1873 / South Dublin

Parents : John Brophy & Jane Fagan/Fegen/Fagen

and there's also one more, this time a son, in the parish records (the extracted records only cover up to about 1880/81) :

Parish : St. Andrews (RC)
Name : James Brophy
Date of Birth: N/R N/R 1882
Address : 33 Sandwith Place
Parents : John Brophy / Jane Fagan
Sponsors: Pat Kelly / Anne Kelly

Shane

shanew · 20-04-2011 1:32pm

the earlier Mary's birth seems to have been registered a few weeks after the birth as it appears in 1869 ;

name: Mary Anne Brophy
registration district: Dublin South
event type: Birth
Quarter and year: 1869
Volume : 2 / Page 720

S.

P. Breathnach · 20-04-2011 2:53pm

Dun wrote: »

Well, if you're sure.. I can get it for free. Coincidentally I'll be working on both of those marriage volumes anyway because they contain the Donegal registers too, so it's no bother. I can send you an image of it, and save you €6

In that case, yes please.

Herself also says to thank you.

[I'm being honest with her. I could pretend that I am directly uncovering the additional stuff that I am getting here, but I have told her that I have been lucky in finding helpful people.]

P. Breathnach · 20-04-2011 3:38pm

shanew wrote: »

here's the lists of children I found ion the extracted records :

Kate Brophy / 09 Jun 1867 / 577, DUBLIN
Mary Anne / 15 Dec 1868 / 720, High St, Dublin
Mary Jane / 11 Aug 1870 / 652, No 2, City Of Dublin, Ire
Anne Brophy / 31 Jan 1873 / South Dublin
Johanna Brophy / 14 Feb 1875 / No 2 South City, City Of Dublin
Jane Brophy / 30 Dec 1876 / Dublin
Ellen Brophy / 27 Aug 1878, Dublin
Anne Brophy / 31 Jan 1873 / South Dublin

Parents : John Brophy & Jane Fagan/Fegen/Fagen

and there's also one more, this time a son, in the parish records (the extracted records only cover up to about 1880/81) :

Parish : St. Andrews (RC)
Name : James Brophy
Date of Birth: N/R N/R 1882
Address : 33 Sandwith Place
Parents : John Brophy / Jane Fagan
Sponsors: Pat Kelly / Anne Kelly

This family is getting bigger and more obscure! The High Street connection seems to be unsupported. We do have Merchant's Quay for two of the births, and now we have Sandwith Place. The 1901 census tells us that 33 Sandwith Place was a five-room house occupied by four households, so it's possible that it was similar twenty years earlier, and that the Brophys were not a wealthy family.

Sixteen-year old Mary Jane married into a moderately prosperous family on the Meath-Cavan border. How did she manage that leap?

Herself asks me to join her thanks to mine for all the help.

Dun · 20-04-2011 4:25pm

I'd say it's easier to go that way if you're a woman than if you're a fella

I'll get those to you tomorrow evening or Friday.

P. Breathnach · 20-04-2011 5:04pm

I may have something more.

Have a look at this from the 1901 census: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Fitzwilliam/Lennox_Street/1306982/ (expand to show all information).
John Brophy, head of family, is a stonecutter. That's a possible link, because Mary Jane married a stonecutter. It would answer my question about how a 16-year old from inner-city Dublin ended up married to the proprietor of a quarry on the Meath-Cavan border.

We have some names that match with what Shane has posted, and also got some names that are new to us. No Jane Fegan/Brophy, but Annie has no stated occupation, so she might be housekeeping for her widowed father and his family.

There is no sign of John Brophy in the 1911 census. But I find this household unit: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Wood_Quay__part_of_/Ovoca_Road/82294/
If we disregard the ages, it looks like the same family. But the ages are a long way out. The Anne in our Brophy family would have been 38 at the time of the 1911 census. Would she have declared herself to be 26? Single and still hoping?

Submitted as feedback, and to invite opinions on the plausibility of the two households being the same people.

Dun · 21-04-2011 10:34pm

11 August 1870, 4 New Row - Mary Jane - Female - John Brophy, 4 New Row - Jane Brophy, formerly Fegan - Stone Cutter - The Mark x of Jane Brophy, Mother, 4 New Row

The other record is 7 Feb 1870, and is Mary Anne born to Michael Brophy and Anne Fitzpatrick at 91 Talbot Street. If you need the image, let me know.

P. Breathnach · 21-04-2011 11:38pm

That's great, Dun. Many thanks.

The stonecutter occupation is confirmed, which underpins the connections I made with the 1901 and 1911 censuses.

It's yet another location for the family. We started off believing they were in High Street, and now there is no sign that they ever were (apart from visiting the registrar's office fairly frequently to record births).

We're on a roll!

I found a baptism record for a Jane Catherine Fagan in 1845 -- looks a plausible d.o.b. for somebody who was producing children between 1867 and 1888. If we can find a marriage record, we might be able to link them, and get names for another generation.

P. Breathnach · 22-04-2011 9:10am

Dun,

I found the Brophy-Fagan marriage:
name: John Brophy
registration district: Dublin North
event type: MARRIAGES
registration quarter and year: 1866
volume number: 12
page number: 547

If that is on your desk, we would love to see it.

Dun · 22-04-2011 10:00am

Ah, they're not quite on my desk - they're at the local LDS FHC. I'll be back there on Thursday and can get it for you then if you don't mind waiting.

P. Breathnach · 22-04-2011 11:39am

Dun wrote: »

Ah, they're not quite on my desk - they're at the local LDS FHC. I'll be back there on Thursday and can get it for you then if you don't mind waiting.

We don't want to burden you unfairly, but if it's reasonably convenient for you, then yes, please.

shanew · 22-04-2011 12:32pm

there's an extracted version of that marriage on FamilySearch

groom's name: John Brophy
bride's name: Jane Fagan
marriage date: 28 Aug 1866
marriage place: North Dublin, Dublin, Ireland
groom's father's name: James Brophy
bride's father's name: Bernard Fagan
groom's marital status: Single
bride's marital status: Single

see : https://www.familysearch.org/search/search/index/record-search-advanced#searchType=records&fed=true&collectionId=1584964&advanced=true&givenName=John&surname=brophy&eventType=any&eventLocation=&eventYearFrom=1866&eventYearTo=1866&relationship=spouse&spouseFirst=&spouseLast=fagan&filtered=true

Shane

Known individual not in civil register

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