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Another brick wall

  • 16-04-2020 11:49pm
    #1
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,300 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Following on from my recent breakthrough I’m now looking at the next brick wall on my to-do list involving an individual who appears to disappear at the turn of the last century.

    This brick wall is particularly frustrating, not least because the time frame is relatively recent but also because I have established pretty much everything else for this family. From cradle to grave I can tell you all about the parents, children and grandchildren but not Joseph who vanishes from the written record after the 1901 census.

    Here’s what I know…

    Joseph Pelly was born in Eyrecourt, Co. Galway in 1871 to James Pelly (1840-1878), a doctor based in Eyrecourt, and Mary Frances Thomson (1844-1923) of Dublin City. His parents were married in Dublin in 1864.

    Joseph had six siblings; Kathleen (1865-1912) married Ernest Moore, Mary Baptista (1867-1942) also married Ernest Moore, James Thomas (1868-1934) married May Dennehy, Frances Josephine (1869-1948) married John Reid, Mary Emmanuel (1873-1934) married Joseph Murray, and Agnes ((1875-1952) married Joseph Halloran.

    In 1901 he was employed as a bank clerk and living at 56 Harcourt Street, Dublin City with his mother, two of his sisters, and his mother’s step-brother.

    In 1911 his mother was still living at 56 Harcourt Street and recorded that her seven children were all still alive but Joseph was nowhere to be found.

    According to a chart compiled by my mother’s uncle in the 1970’s Joseph was supposed to have been married with children but the chart gives no details of this union and I have found nothing to substantiate it either.

    I have searched all the usual places for this guy and found nothing – not a marriage, not a death, not a mention in a newspaper. So I’m wondering what else might have happened to him that would explain his disappearance.

    Any and all suggestions will be most gratefully received as I badly want to put this one to bed.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



Comments

  • #2
    CassieManson
    Registered Users Posts: 693 ✭✭✭CassieManson


    Could he have emigrated?


  • #3
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,300 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    CassieManson wrote: »
    Could he have emigrated?

    He may well have Cassie but I can find no evidence of this.

    Save for his sister Frances Josephine who moved to Michigan following her husbands death, all his other siblings and their spouses lived and died in Dublin.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #4
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Have you looked for him under initials in the 1911 census? i.e. could he have been in prison/hospital/army/workhouse and thus recorded differently?

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #5
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,300 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    I have Pinky and nothing likely shows up.

    But I do wonder did he end up in prison or an institution as it's so odd that I can find nothing on him post the census yet researching the rest of the family posed no particular difficulties.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #6
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    I do think emigration is the most likely for him.
    I'm sure you've looked in the US censuses and the UK 1939 Register.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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  • #7
    CassieManson
    Registered Users Posts: 693 ✭✭✭CassieManson


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    Have you looked for him under initials in the 1911 census? i.e. could he have been in prison/hospital/army/workhouse and thus recorded differently?

    It could also be an error in transcription eg Kelly instead of Pelly?

    I have Keily ancestors who are often transcribed as Kelly - makes them very difficult to find!


  • #8
    CassieManson
    Registered Users Posts: 693 ✭✭✭CassieManson


    Hermy wrote: »
    Following on from my recent breakthrough I’m now looking at the next brick wall on my to-do list involving an individual who appears to disappear at the turn of the last century.

    This brick wall is particularly frustrating, not least because the time frame is relatively recent but also because I have established pretty much everything else for this family. From cradle to grave I can tell you all about the parents, children and grandchildren but not Joseph who vanishes from the written record after the 1901 census.

    Here’s what I know…

    Joseph Pelly was born in Eyrecourt, Co. Galway in 1871 to James Pelly (1840-1878), a doctor based in Eyrecourt, and Mary Frances Thomson (1844-1923) of Dublin City. His parents were married in Dublin in 1864.

    Joseph had six siblings; Kathleen (1865-1912) married Ernest Moore, Mary Baptista (1867-1942) also married Ernest Moore, James Thomas (1868-1934) married May Dennehy, Frances Josephine (1869-1948) married John Reid, Mary Emmanuel (1873-1934) married Joseph Murray, and Agnes ((1875-1952) married Joseph Halloran.

    In 1901 he was employed as a bank clerk and living at 56 Harcourt Street, Dublin City with his mother, two of his sisters, and his mother’s step-brother.

    In 1911 his mother was still living at 56 Harcourt Street and recorded that her seven children were all still alive but Joseph was nowhere to be found.

    According to a chart compiled by my mother’s uncle in the 1970’s Joseph was supposed to have been married with children but the chart gives no details of this union and I have found nothing to substantiate it either.

    I have searched all the usual places for this guy and found nothing – not a marriage, not a death, not a mention in a newspaper. So I’m wondering what else might have happened to him that would explain his disappearance.

    Any and all suggestions will be most gratefully received as I badly want to put this one to bed.



    Could this be him?

    Bank Official living in Cork, born in Galway. Age slightly out but that's not unusual.

    If this is him he appears to have died in 1914


  • #9
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    It certainly looks more like a P than a Kelly in the image!

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #10
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Rootsireland has a transcript birth of a Cornelius Gerald Pelly born 1864 to Patrick Pelly and Mary Anne Dillon AND another one born to Patrick Pelly and Mary Horan in 1864 - different parishes.

    There's another in 1871 Cornelius Joseph born to Martin Pelly and Bridget Ann Fagan.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #11
    KildareFan
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭KildareFan


    Looks like that chap Cornelius was from Co Galway - his funeral mass was held in St Michael's Ballinasloe and he was buried in Portumna [Irish Independent 25 Aug 1914 p1]; he was based in Killarney in the 1901 Census http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kerry/Killarney/New_Street__Lower_/1414670/


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  • #12
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,300 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    CassieManson wrote: »
    It could also be an error in transcription eg Kelly instead of Pelly?

    I have Keily ancestors who are often transcribed as Kelly - makes them very difficult to find!

    I think it's very likely that he is hiding somewhere disguised as a Kelly.

    Cornelius Joseph, the bank official in Fermoy who died unmarried in 1914 and Cornelius Gerald are both first cousins - their fathers, James, Martin and Patrick are all brothers.

    EDIT: The family of Patrick Pelly and Mary Horan are a different line of Pelly's to mine.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #13
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,300 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    I should add that I have been researching this family for more than ten years and have been collaborating with a member of the Pelly family (who's been researching his ancestry for several decades) to establish the identity of all the Pelly's in Ireland and beyond.

    I hope this doesn't sound arrogant or big-headed - it's honestly not meant that way. It's just that despite considerable efforts this guy has evaded all attempts to find him so far. So I'm looking for a novel approach to finding him - something I haven't thought of or somewhere I haven't thought to look.

    Please do keep the suggestions coming because I know in all likelihood he's probably hiding in plain sight!

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #14
    CassieManson
    Registered Users Posts: 693 ✭✭✭CassieManson


    You may already have seen this..his name appears in this document from 1902


  • #15
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,300 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    CassieManson wrote: »
    You may already have seen this..his name appears in this document from 1902

    No, that's one I hadn't seen before - good find Cassie.

    His uncle is the C. Pelly at No. 64 - another Cornelius, he was a local government auditor.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #16
    crossman47
    Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭crossman47


    He was a bank clerk so it may be worth consulting the relevant bank, if it still exists. It may be one of those that made up AIB or BOI. I imagine, for pension purposes, they could have good records.


  • #17
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,300 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    I wouldn't have thought of that crossman - excellent suggestion.

    I know his cousin Cornelius mentioned above worked in the National Bank Ltd. in Fermoy, and that another cousin Hyacinth Albert Pelly was manager of the Hibernian Bank in Cork.

    Do you know where I might look to ascertain whether he had a pension or not?

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #18
    crossman47
    Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭crossman47


    Hermy wrote: »
    I wouldn't have thought of that crossman - excellent suggestion.

    I know his cousin Cornelius mentioned above worked in the National Bank Ltd. in Fermoy, and that another cousin Hyacinth Albert Pelly was manager of the Hibernian Bank in Cork.

    Do you know where I might look to ascertain whether he had a pension or not?

    Hibernian became part of Bank of Ireland so maybe query them. I wasn't thinking of any source for pension other than the employer itself.


  • #19
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,300 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    Yes, I have indeed Deja Boo.

    Interesting man Hyacinth Albert.
    I believe he also played a pivotal role in getting Mr. Ford to set up shop in Cork.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #20
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Well, even just to thrive being a man called Hyacinth is impressive.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #21
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,300 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    The name Hyacinth has been in the family since at least the early 1700's and survives to this day.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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  • #22
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,300 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    Funny turn of events.

    I had an enquiry from someone the other day about another Joseph Pelly - an uncle of the chap I'm looking for - and while searching for the uncle I found several family trees on Ancestry which appear to refer to my Joseph Pelly. All four trees have much the same info and name my g-g-grandparents as his parents but there is no record or detail I can find that definitively ties this Joseph Pelly to my Pelly ancestors in Dublin.

    I haven't found any records on Ancestry that name his parents or give his date and place of birth. The federal census returns he appears on just say born in Ireland, and a few years younger at that, but the 1915 New Jersey state census does at least record the correct month of birth. Based on New Jersey death indexes it would appear he died in 1923 before he'd had a chance to fill out a naturalization record.

    I'll message the various users and see what they have to say and report back.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #23
    crossman47
    Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭crossman47


    Just be careful as it is likely the family trees you mention copied from one another so only one of them has figured out the tree.


  • #24
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,300 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    crossman47 wrote: »
    Just be careful as it is likely the family trees you mention copied from one another so only one of them has figured out the tree.

    Not only from one another but also from me too unfortunately.

    Some information and an image I shared with someone else a few years back whose tree is public has made it into the trees I'm interested in. Consequently, as things stand the information in them has almost no currency. But hopefully as the users are descendants of Joseph Pelly one of them will respond to my message with some personal knowledge that ties everything together.

    As there isn't another Joseph Pelly born in Ireland that I know of that could be him I'm very hopeful that I have the right man but he's been demoted from bank clerk to labourer en route to the States and that alone makes me doubtful.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #25
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,300 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    Well, I've spent a bit of time working on this one and on the balance of probabilities I think I have the right man.

    My concern about his occupation has been allayed somewhat. While he is variously described on US travel documents, census returns, and his draft card as a labourer and later a machinist in an engineering works, the 1910 Newark, New Jersey city directory describes him as a bookkeeper which is more in line with what I might have expected. So for whatever reason he moved from finance into engineering.

    I haven't had responses to messages I've sent but it's early days.

    In the meantime I'll keep looking for records of his marriage and death in New Jersey just to remove any lingering doubt.

    Either way that's another brick wall knocked and one more to go which I'll post in a few days if you'll indulge me.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #26
    Deja Boo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,429 ✭✭✭✭Deja Boo


    Hermy wrote: »
    ...

    As there isn't another Joseph Pelly born in Ireland that I know of that could be him I'm very hopeful that I have the right man but he's been demoted from bank clerk to labourer en route to the States and that alone makes me doubtful.
    New Jersey was probably very industrial at the time. Labourer or machinist in the engineering field may've been some of those readily accessible jobs assured to him (and he may've progressed in it), as this Newark article states, "[The Irish immigrants] did heavy construction work, building canals, bridges and railroads, coach makers, hatters, in stone quarries, and manufacturing, in time, owning many of the businesses. ... Initially, many settled in the Ironbound district... As Newark prospered, no longer did the Irish immigrant come empty handed: a job was usually assured by friends before the immigrant left Ireland, where he can learn a trade and earn more money than he could as a laborer."

    1910 Nationality Map of Newark
    The Ironbound District


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