Islam and the progressive left?

AnGaelach · 14-06-2017 5:23pm

dav3 wrote: »

'Progressive' is a pejorative term now? It can be difficult to keep up with the 12 year old american edgelords, every day a new definition of a word. Whatever will they think of next.

I know, right? Like how they tried to rewrite the word gender from being synonymous with sex to having its own distinct amorphous meaning. Or like how they tried to rewrite racism to meaning you have to have power. Or like how they've tried to come up with all sense of nonsensical mumbo jumbo like xim/xer or polybiquadrisexualgenderedophile.

The reason progressive has become a pejorative is because you on the Left have made an absolute mockery of yourselves. What better way to return the favour than to mock you for what you purport to be? "Progressives".

AnGaelach · 14-06-2017 5:39pm

Grayson wrote: »

Islamic terrorist is not reflective of Islam.

The hint is in the name.

circadian · 14-06-2017 5:45pm

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Us libtards won't be laughing when Europe is Islamified eh?

Or some such bollocks

Stop virtue signalling.

Am I doing this right? I still have no idea what SJW, virtue signalling and all those other buzzwords really mean.

Zebra3 · 14-06-2017 5:55pm

topper75 wrote: »

So you can logic that way.

But I can't.

Aha! Yet another double standard. Should carry a health warning reading those posts.

:D:D:D

Oh, dear.

You can logic anyway you want.

All I said was that you weren't close to what I was talking about.

Relax there.

take everything · 14-06-2017 5:56pm

A good example of how the Left stupid people (I think I'm gonna retire ”libtard” but it does adequately express left stupidity) is invoking nature or nurture as it suits.

Homosexuality/sexual orientation: completely nature (genetic) and not nurture (environment). Of course I agree this a reasonable account of orientation (not that it really matters as an argument as to how ethical orientation and its reflected behaviour is- ie completely ethical once consensual). But a dogma and sclerosis builds around leftie thought and even wondering whether environment/experience can influence orientation becomes heresy.

Contrast this with Left dogma about something like IQ having a strong genetic basis. It's too touchy a topic so it's either not broached or talked about in an obtuse way.

There's an endless number of these contradictory narratives that would madden any rationalist.

ScumLord · 14-06-2017 5:57pm

More of this left right nonsense. The left is full of all sorts of groups like socialists, communists, labour, libertarians, anarchists amongst many more, the right side is as diverse and all of these people, even if they're too the left disagree with each other on many different topics.

Many people in the left would be very lapse when it comes to religion, including being full blown atheists. So there's no love for Islam, there's an expected level of tolerance, the same shown to Christians and buddhists, and all sorts of religions. All people to the left are doing is being consistent and fair when it comes to the diversity of religion.

The extreme right seems to think that being tolerant should also include being tolerant of racism, xenophobia and stuck in a culture that became redundant decades ago and downright obstructive in the modern age. They aren't promoting culture, they're promoting a male macho dominated world where successful men should be in charge and everyone should just listen to them regardless of whether they're right or wrong, or what the fact and evidense may say.

When I hear people going on about lefty liberals, or conservative right I just assume they're an simpleton who can't deal with the real world and would rather live in a fantasy land of good guys and bad guys, good vs evil, us against them, and use the actions of tiny groups of people to condemn wide ranges of people whether those people are in any way related to what they're talking about seems to be completely irrelevant.

AnGaelach · 14-06-2017 5:59pm

ScumLord wrote: »

When I hear people going on about lefty liberals, or conservative right I just assume they're an simpleton

Now that's what I call irony.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 14-06-2017 6:01pm

The trans movement would be another eg to 'Take Everything' post. It's impossible to argue that gender is a social construct and support the existence of transgenderism.

Il Fascista · 14-06-2017 6:08pm

ScumLord wrote: »

All people to the left are doing is being consistent and fair when it comes to the diversity of religion.

Come on, this part is nonsense. If what you said was true then words like Islamophobia wouldn't exist.

The Backwards Man · 14-06-2017 6:13pm

circadian wrote: »

Stop virtue signalling.

Am I doing this right? I still have no idea what SJW, virtue signalling and all those other buzzwords really mean.

They all mean the same thing;

That the person you are taking to is a bit of an arsehole.

take everything · 14-06-2017 6:18pm

I am going to get flak for this but he front of today's independent has a photo of students playing hurling with one of the students wearing some sort of dress (presumably mandated by Islam) while playing hurling.

Frankly, to me, it looks ridiculous. It is completely restrictive to their movement in the game of hurling. What purpose does it serve on a young girl playing hurling.

If that photo is meant to depict progressive multiculturalism it has failed in its depiction for me.

Ulysses Gaze · 14-06-2017 6:20pm

circadian wrote: »

Stop virtue signalling.

Am I doing this right? I still have no idea what SJW, virtue signalling and all those other buzzwords really mean.

It means you're a Cuck

ScumLord · 14-06-2017 6:28pm

Il Fascista wrote: »

Come on, this part is nonsense. If what you said was true then words like Islamophobia wouldn't exist.

I don't get what you're trying to say. That attempting to treat all religions equally leads to islamophobia?

Widdershins · 14-06-2017 6:37pm

take everything wrote: »

I am going to get flak for this but he front of today's independent has a photo of students playing hurling with one of the students wearing some sort of dress (presumably mandated by Islam) while playing hurling.

Frankly, to me, it looks ridiculous. It is completely restrictive to their movement in the game of hurling. What purpose does it serve on a young girl playing hurling.

If that photo is meant to depict progressive multiculturalism it has failed in its depiction for me.

Why is it on the front page in the first place? Is there a story to it?

end of the road · 14-06-2017 6:40pm

red ears wrote: »

You will be gone its your grandchildren who will deal with the results of this liberal naivety.

what "liberal naivity"

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The one thing that leftism doesn't and has never acounted for is that there are bad people in the world.

It works brilliantly on paper but there will always be somebody to abuse the system. Whether it be corruption for more wealth/power, or socially where the meanist kid rules the play ground because he doesn't play by the rules.

This will always occur, its human nature for an alpha male to take control.

At the moment Sunni Islam is the alpha male. It doesn't play by conventional rules and if you upset it, it will end brutally.

wrong. leftism is very clear that there are bad people in the world. very clear. unlike rightism however, they recognise that bad people exist in many forms, come from many countries and cultures, unlike rightism, which think only bad people come from cultures that aren't theirs.

biko wrote: »

Islam and the progressive left?

Maybe it is that they both hate Jews

nope. they do not hate the jews.
the far right on the other hand just use the jews for their muslim hating agenda.

circadian wrote: »

Stop virtue signalling.

Am I doing this right? I still have no idea what SJW, virtue signalling and all those other buzzwords really mean.

they mean nothing. they are a bunch of nonsensical drivel used to try and dismiss one's point and shut people down. thankfully they fail every time, but it doesn't stop the kids from using these terms.

pickarooney · 14-06-2017 6:54pm

Beyondgone wrote: »

Turkeys voting for Christmas, pretty much.

Christians voting for Turkey would be stranger.

AnGaelach · 14-06-2017 7:14pm

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't get what you're trying to say. That attempting to treat all religions equally leads to islamophobia?

There isn't any such attempt to treat all religions equally. A vast majority of the left seems to be quite hostile to anything to do with Catholicism and ignoring any of the problems Islam brings.

You can't even bring up Catholicism without people calling you a pedophile enabler, or that you hate women and want to put dead kids in sewerage systems.

And yet, if you mention Islam's relationship with terrorism or its treatment of women/minorities, the knives come out to try to paint you as being an Islamaphobic racist.

SkepticQuark · 14-06-2017 7:25pm

AnGaelach wrote: »

The reason progressive has become a pejorative is because you on the Left have made an absolute mockery of yourselves. What better way to return the favour than to mock you for what you purport to be? "Progressives".

take everything wrote: »

A good example of how the Left stupid people (I think I'm gonna retire ”libtard” but it does adequately express left stupidity) is invoking nature or nurture as it suits.

Homosexuality/sexual orientation: completely nature (genetic) and not nurture (environment). Of course I agree this a reasonable account of orientation (not that it really matters as an argument as to how ethical orientation and its reflected behaviour is- ie completely ethical once consensual). But a dogma and sclerosis builds around leftie thought and even wondering whether environment/experience can influence orientation becomes heresy.

Contrast this with Left dogma about something like IQ having a strong genetic basis. It's too touchy a topic so it's either not broached or talked about in an obtuse way.

Are people still seriously at this? So I can I start ranting about "the right" now. Oh the right love their conspiracy theories, I mean look at Infowars and Breitbart. The right dogma brainwashes you to become a neo-nazi that believes the deep state is out to get them. The white nationalists looking for the cleansing of the country! The right teaches you that only white people should exist, gay marriage should be outlawed and we should have only Christians in our nations.

That's stupid right, good we agree. So stop doing it yourselves but with the other side of the compass.

It is downright stupid to talk about a whole half a political compass in that way because you throw in millions of people who don't even agree on the things you claim they agree on.

Sadly I think I'm going to have to keep repeating myself here because this is the second post now on this exact problem. Pick what and who you are disagreeing with specifically, none of this "the left" ****. I'll happily disagree with what I'd call the regressive left or the far left (we can pick a name) who don't agree with free speech, who don't allow open discussions on immigration reform that are reasonable to have etc. And yes they are a subset of "the left" but as I'm sure you've learnt in maths subsets don't necessarily represent the entire set.

circadian · 14-06-2017 7:26pm

AnGaelach wrote: »

There isn't any such attempt to treat all religions equally. A vast majority of the left seems to be quite hostile to anything to do with Catholicism and ignoring any of the problems Islam brings.

You can't even bring up Catholicism without people calling you a pedophile enabler, or that you hate women and want to put dead kids in sewerage systems.

And yet, if you mention Islam's relationship with terrorism or its treatment of women/minorities, the knives come out to try to paint you as being an Islamaphobic racist.

Really? You honestly believe that?

I rarely see people going into a rabid overdrive of spewing hate towards the church when it comes into conversation.

Also, I'm pretty sure many of what you consider "the left" are in uproar about the arms deal with Saudi Arabia, the country from which Wahabbism, an extremely conservative Islamic branch comes from.

dr.fuzzenstein · 14-06-2017 7:26pm

snow_jon wrote: »

agree strongly how the left will mercilessly slate the catholic church and happily associate mistreatment of single mothers with catholicism yet whenever a terrorist attack occurs which IS claim is in honour of the prophet , they are first out of the blocks to declare it has nothing to do with islam

Well, I would never associate the average Irish catholic with either trying to bugger me or trying to blow me up.
It's the same with Muslims. I have Turkish, Tunisian and Moroccan friends. You would be amazed at the amount of times they don't want to behead me with a rusty bread knife or kill me in some other gruesome fashion.
For example I am German, but you may be amazed to hear that I am not a Nazi. My Dutch friends do not smoke weed, I could go on.
People don't always behave like their lazy stereotype.
Terrorists are just arseholes who rejoice in killing people. It would be wrong to condemn an entire group of people because of a few psycho murderous cnuts.

Religion is not the problem. The problem is that human beings have a certain percentage of murderous arseholes that just want to kill and will use any excuse to do so.
How have people not realised this very simple, basic concept that a 6 year old would understand.
Some people are just cnuts.

ScumLord · 14-06-2017 7:36pm

AnGaelach wrote: »

There isn't any such attempt to treat all religions equally. A vast majority of the left seems to be quite hostile to anything to do with Catholicism and ignoring any of the problems Islam brings.

You can't even bring up Catholicism without people calling you a pedophile enabler, or that you hate women and want to put dead kids in sewerage systems.

And yet, if you mention Islam's relationship with terrorism or its treatment of women/minorities, the knives come out to try to paint you as being an Islamaphobic racist.

Come on now, that's all nonsense. The catholic church has a direct effect on the Irish people, they caused great harm to Irish people that's why people have strong emotions about the church, it's a separate issue to Islamic extremists, but because they're both religions comparisons are made.

There are extreme views from people about the church, but that doesn't mean everyone who dislikes the church thinks that catholics are peadophile enablers, that's taking extreme minority views and applying them to everyone who disagrees with you.

The problem when it comes to Islamic terrorists suffers the same effect. Some extremists are using Islam as a justification for their own power lust and we're saying that those people represent normal Muslims and start picking apart their religious texts to prove that assumption, then someone else points out the Christian religious texts have a lot of similar stuff and it goes on and on.

All religion is bunkum, but if I have to tolerate Christian bunkum on a daily basis , then Christians have to tolerate Muslim bunkum too. I'm all for restricting the more anarchic practices of the Muslim faith, just like the catholics had to go through. But ultimately this is a secular democracy, we should be able to think what we like as long as it doesn't affect other people.

jackofalltrades · 14-06-2017 8:09pm

ScumLord wrote: »

Many people in the left would be very lapse when it comes to religion, including being full blown atheists.
So there's no love for Islam, there's an expected level of tolerance, the same shown to Christians and buddhists, and all sorts of religions.
All people to the left are doing is being consistent and fair when it comes to the diversity of religion.

The idea that the left are being "consistent and fair" with different religions is laughable.
They're at pains to make excuses for Islam and at the same time have no restraint when it comes to criticising Catholicism.
They'll happy endorse violence against so called fascists on the one hand and defend Islamists(religious fascists) on the other.
Ardent feminists suddenly resort to cultural relativism when it comes segregation between men and women in Islamic society.
Just look at the vastly different ways the two religions are treated on this site.

SkepticQuark · 14-06-2017 8:15pm

jackofalltrades wrote: »

The idea that the left are being "consistent and fair" with different religions is laughable.
They're at pains to make excuses for Islam and at the same time have no restraint when it comes to criticising Catholicism.
They'll happy endorse violence against so called fascists on the one hand and defend Islamists(religious fascists) on the other.
Ardent feminists suddenly resort to cultural relativism when it comes segregation between men and women in Islamic society.
Just look at the vastly different ways the two religions are treated on this site.

I'm on "the left" and I think Islam has some backwards beliefs and teachings. There you go point one done.

I condemn violence against anyone who doesn't agree with you politically. I condemn the actions of "antifa" which come across as very childish and immature. They do not support in many cases the bedrock of a free and open society.

I also do not defend or agree with Islamists who take the worst parts of the Qur'an and use that to then go out and commit acts of terror against anyone who does not support their cause. There that's point two done.

I'm not an "ardent feminist" but I also disagree with how women are treated by much of the Islamic world and hope places like Saudi Arabia etc. can actually adopt equal rights for men and women.

This again is the problem I raised in my last post but nobody is listening. You can't lump people in your neat boxes and expect the people you've thrown into just be like "okay cool I now adopt the stereotypes you state as fact that represent the side of the political compass I'm on."

I don't have to suddenly become a "classical liberal" like Sargon or Rubin to criticise my side, I'll happily criticise groups that are part of the left but you'll get nowhere with me if you keep going on about "the left" as a nice catch-all to represent anyone to the left of you politically.

pickarooney · 14-06-2017 9:18pm

take everything wrote: »

I am going to get flak for this but he front of today's independent has a photo of students playing hurling with one of the students wearing some sort of dress (presumably mandated by Islam) while playing hurling.

Frankly, to me, it looks ridiculous. It is completely restrictive to their movement in the game of hurling. What purpose does it serve on a young girl playing hurling.

If that photo is meant to depict progressive multiculturalism it has failed in its depiction for me.

Girls aren't even allowed to play hurling in Ireland

Call Me Jimmy · 14-06-2017 9:22pm

AnGaelach wrote: »

I think it's some kind of neurosis by the Left to categorise everybody as helpless hapless creatures that need their protection. Certain elements of the Left have gone so far into their delusions that they seem to believe minorities to be, essentially, children needing their hand and their care.

Whilst some on the Left no doubt see it as merely an electoral ploy to get votes, I believe a great many of them are quite fanatical in their belief. Fanatical to the point of double-think.

For example, in Sweden the SD (a right-wing party) was demonised for trying to organise a gay pride march because it went through a Muslim area... Think about that for a second. The Left denounced a gay pride rally because it went through a Muslim area.

Yup, you can only defy logic so much before it eats you

eyerer · 14-06-2017 9:24pm

end of the road;103806702

wrong. leftism is very clear that there are bad people in the world. very clear. unlike rightism however, they recognise that bad people exist in many forms, come from many countries and cultures, unlike rightism, which think only bad people come from cultures that aren't theirs.

Really, the extreme leftists (is SJW still used?) attack anyone that doesn't agree with their beliefs. Sometimes with venomous yelling, sometimes with violence. You can't say only the right dislikes outsiders.

In general, I used to think liberal meant you could accept peoples' differences, but I must have got that wrong..

Grayson · 14-06-2017 9:57pm

AnGaelach wrote: »

The hint is in the name.

So you're saying I'm wrong? Islam is the same as islamic terrorism? And you're basing this on the fact that they have the same sounding name.

Well done. You have reached the level of rationality of a 5 year old.

take everything · 14-06-2017 10:59pm

pickarooney wrote: »

Girls aren't even allowed to play hurling in Ireland

Hurling, camogie, whatever the game they were playing.

Why is the distinction important.
As I say, I cannot understand why a young girl playing camogie is dressed so differently to the other players.

Grueller · 14-06-2017 11:18pm

pickarooney wrote: »

Girls aren't even allowed to play hurling in Ireland

Up to 14 they can and do

Junkyard Tom · 14-06-2017 11:39pm

jackofalltrades wrote: »

'The Left' are at pains to make excuses for Islam and at the same time have no restraint when it comes to criticising Catholicism.

First I reject the term 'The Left' because it's become fucking meaningless but let's park that for the moment.

Let us compare the two religions in the Irish context. Islam has done nothing to the Irish people. The RCC has a history of institutional abuse against the Irish people, from industrial schools to the de-facto slavery of the laundries.

Nobody but nobody makes excuses for Islamists attacking innocent people.

Okay?

Islam and the progressive left?

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