Irish being shoved down people's throats

mrsherself · 31-01-2017 11:57pm #1

I HATE that phrase, mainly because I feel like it's been repeated so many times that it's not an original statement and people use it to describe how they disliked Irish in school.

I'm an Irish teacher, fairly new to it. I've been teaching seven years. I didn't enjoy the Irish curriculum in school, but I did like the language and therefore, chose to take more of an interest in college.

What gets to me is the phrase "Irish was shoved down our throats in school". I only ever see this phrase when people are speaking specifically about Irish. Not maths. Not english. Not geography. Just Irish. And these are not all people of the Peig generation either! All age ranges from the Peig readers to the newly graduated. I hate this phrase because it makes me out, as a teacher of Irish, to be some sort of Nazi-esque villain whose job it is all day long to batter the children in my care and shout at them until they 'get it right'. I love Irish. I do not love the curriculum, but I also don't think that it's being shoved down anyone's throat. It's being taught. No more or less than any other course.

I feel like people who use this phrase are not people I can understand. I would like to really know why or how they feel this way, but they tend to utter this phrase (usually online after ranting about how horrendous Irish teachers are/were) and then walk away.

Any explanations or thoughts on where this phrase comes from?

Ps: I'm more interested in thoughts on people aged 40 and under who were not of the Peig generation, as poor Peig is usually used as a bizarre excuse

Pss: I made a point of reading Peig after hearing how aaaaaaawful this book was. It wasn't great, but holy God, it wasn't awful!

sryanbruen · 01-02-2017 7:49pm

mrsherself wrote: »

I HATE that phrase, mainly because I feel like it's been repeated so many times that it's not an original statement and people use it to describe how they disliked Irish in school.

I'm an Irish teacher, fairly new to it. I've been teaching seven years. I didn't enjoy the Irish curriculum in school, but I did like the language and therefore, chose to take more of an interest in college.

What gets to me is the phrase "Irish was shoved down our throats in school". I only ever see this phrase when people are speaking specifically about Irish. Not maths. Not english. Not geography. Just Irish. And these are not all people of the Peig generation either! All age ranges from the Peig readers to the newly graduated. I hate this phrase because it makes me out, as a teacher of Irish, to be some sort of Nazi-esque villain whose job it is all day long to batter the children in my care and shout at them until they 'get it right'. I love Irish. I do not love the curriculum, but I also don't think that it's being shoved down anyone's throat. It's being taught. No more or less than any other course.

I feel like people who use this phrase are not people I can understand. I would like to really know why or how they feel this way, but they tend to utter this phrase (usually online after ranting about how horrendous Irish teachers are/were) and then walk away.

Any explanations or thoughts on where this phrase comes from?

Ps: I'm more interested in thoughts on people aged 40 and under who were not of the Peig generation, as poor Peig is usually used as a bizarre excuse

Pss: I made a point of reading Peig after hearing how aaaaaaawful this book was. It wasn't great, but holy God, it wasn't awful!

I'm a student currently in TY and I got a B in the JC for HL Irish. Tá grá agam don Ghaeilge

but I hate, no wait, I despise how it's taught.

When I say that it's being shoved down my throat, I mean that I'm being FORCED to learn it and in such a ridiculous, stupid way also. I hate being forced to do something even if I do love it.

mrsherself · 01-02-2017 9:35pm

Well to be honest, you still haven't answered my question at all! You're also "forced" to learn maths and English and you're "forced" to have a certain amount of other subjects but you haven't said they are being "shoved down your throat".
You also haven't explained what it is SPECIFICALLY about Irish that you don't like the way it's taught.
You haven't explained what makes ot different and why this phrase is used.
For example, what has your current Irish teacher shoved down your throat? Is he/she not trying to just teach you the curriculum?? What is he/she doing that is violent and unkind?

sryanbruen · 01-02-2017 9:47pm

mrsherself wrote: »

Well to be honest, you still haven't answered my question at all! You're also "forced" to learn maths and English and you're "forced" to have a certain amount of other subjects but you haven't said they are being "shoved down your throat".
You also haven't explained what it is SPECIFICALLY about Irish that you don't like the way it's taught.
You haven't explained what makes ot different and why this phrase is used.
For example, what has your current Irish teacher shoved down your throat? Is he/she not trying to just teach you the curriculum?? What is he/she doing that is violent and unkind?

I did not mention Maths and English because I thought you would use your brain to think that I would say that they are shoved down my throat (because I would as I'm forced to do them like Irish).

I don't like:

- How you are forced to learn poetry when in actual reality, the student(s) haven't got a clue and instead just memorise sample answers (well most at least, not all).
- How you are forced to learn prose or short stories (again going back to the poetry)
- How you are forced to write essays, stories or debates, again students just learn off samples and haven't the slightest clue what they're writing down
- Very little emphasis on speaking the language (more of a problem at JC than LC but even at LC, still way too much emphasis on literature than actually speaking the language which is very stupid)

I even once contacted the Minister for Education back in 2015 on behalf of complaining about the curriculum of Irish.

My teacher is teaching the curriculum and only for the sake of the curriculum. He is not helping me learn the language, he is not helping me speak the language, he is only teaching the curriculum, therefore shoving the stupid curriculum down my throat. I WANT TO LEARN Irish, I want to speak it but thanks to the dumb curriculum I cannot speak it well. Also, he teaches very little grammar. I have researched everywhere and everywhere for getting to know Irish grammar. And because of my research, my grammar for Irish is miles better than it once was like back in 2nd year and early 3rd year. My teacher did not get me up to the standard I am teaching myself to right now. Me as a teacher would teach the students the curriculum AND to speak the language.

Loveinapril · 01-02-2017 9:58pm

I don't understand the phrase either, but I had a different emersion in it. I went to a Gaelscoil until I started an English speaking secondary school. I love Irish, but it was very frustrating as a fluent 12 year old joining a class of students who struggled with the very basic stuff. For the 6 years of secondary school I lost my passion and was bored more than anything. As a result, I lost most of my Irish. I am slowly trying to rebuild my knowledge and try to speak/ read it in every day life as I would love to be bi- lingual again.

mrsherself · 01-02-2017 10:02pm

No. That was my point. I have never heard ANYONE say that English or maths was "shoved down their throat" so don't be rude by saying you thought I would use my brain to assume that would be the case with you. Never have I heard anyone say that in relation to English or maths.

The rest of your answer, however, I appreciate. What I think you need to acknowledge for the most part is that it's not really the method that your teacher is using that you hate, but rather you hate the curriculum. You have mentioned how you wish your teacher would focus more on oral and grammar but aside from that, it sounds like it's the course, rather than the way it's being taught, that you hate.

In conclusion, I wish you, and others like you, would change the phrase "shoved down your throat" for a phrase like:
- the curriculum is awful
- my teacher spends too much time on prose and poetry
- I hate the course
rather than the aforementioned phrase which is overdramatic and doesn't at all describe what the problem is.

I agree with you in a lot of ways. I think the poems and prose are horrendous. However I like having them on the course so I think it would be better to pick interesting/funny prose and poetry rather than the awful tripe that's currently on the course.
I personally think the essay is awful too. I would love to see that taken off.

Anyway, thanks for your input. And all I ask is that in future you articulate your actual opinions about the curriculum and the teaching of it instead of relying on that last and incorrect phrase...

sryanbruen · 01-02-2017 10:05pm

mrsherself wrote: »

No. That was my point. I have never heard ANYONE say that English or maths was "shoved down their throat" so don't be rude by saying you thought I would use my brain to assume that would be the case with you. Never have I heard anyone say that in relation to English or maths.

The rest of your answer, however, I appreciate. What I think you need to acknowledge for the most part is that it's not really the method that your teacher is using that you hate, but rather you hate the curriculum. You have mentioned how you wish your teacher would focus more on oral and grammar but aside from that, it sounds like it's the course, rather than the way it's being taught, that you hate.

In conclusion, I wish you, and others like you, would change the phrase "shoved down your throat" for a phrase like:
- the curriculum is awful
- my teacher spends too much time on prose and poetry
- I hate the course
rather than the aforementioned phrase which is overdramatic and doesn't at all describe what the problem is.

I agree with you in a lot of ways. I think the poems and prose are horrendous. However I like having them on the course so I think it would be better to pick interesting/funny prose and poetry rather than the awful tripe that's currently on the course.
I personally think the essay is awful too. I would love to see that taken off.

Anyway, thanks for your input. And all I ask is that in future you articulate your actual opinions about the curriculum and the teaching of it instead of relying on that last and incorrect phrase...

Ok and sorry for being rude.

ultra violet 5 · 01-02-2017 10:12pm

focus your teaching on the students who love the language;

the students who don't want to learn irish should go on strike

Positively Negative · 01-02-2017 10:13pm

Maths, Geography, English ect will come in handy at some point in life so is needed. Irish has no real use, so why should people be FORCED to study it?

Its thought from a very young age right up to 16 or 17 year olds yet most people in this country can barley string a sentence together in Irish

Insect Overlord · 01-02-2017 10:15pm

Positively Negative wrote: »

Maths, Geography, English ect will come in handy at some point in life so is needed. Irish has no real use, so why should people be FORCED to study it?

Its thought from a very young age right up to 16 or 17 year olds yet most people in this country can barley string a sentence together in Irish

Or, indeed, in English...

mrsherself · 01-02-2017 10:16pm

sryanbruen wrote: »

Ok and sorry for being rude.

Best of luck with everything. And don't let the curriculum take away your love for the language! Is fiú go mór an Ghaeilge a fhoghlaim...

mrsherself · 01-02-2017 10:19pm

Positively Negative wrote: »

Maths, Geography, English ect will come in handy at some point in life so is needed. Irish has no real use, so why should people be FORCED to study it?

Its thought from a very young age right up to 16 or 17 year olds yet most people in this country can barley string a sentence together in Irish

Well because actually I disagree with the point. Pretty much nothing you learn in secondary school is practically useful in life: knowing how rocks are created does not help you, or understanding how to pick out examples of assonance and metaphors in a poem, or learning differentiation or plotting graphs etc. Nothing you learn is very useful, but I guess therein lies the problem a lot of people have with education in general.

I must repeat: this point is invalid as Irish does not stand out from any of the other subjects from this point of view.

Positively Negative · 01-02-2017 10:19pm

An File wrote:

Or, indeed, in English...

So? I didn't pay attention the odd time I actually went, still doesn't stop me contributing to a debate rather than just post smart ass one liner to mock a stranger. Sound fella you are.

ultra violet 5 · 01-02-2017 10:21pm

tíre gan teanga, tíre gan ainm

sryanbruen · 01-02-2017 10:22pm

ultra violet 5 wrote: »

tíre gan teanga, tíre gan ainm

Beatha teanga í a labhairt!

Positively Negative · 01-02-2017 10:23pm

I never learned any of those things you mentioned so i cant comment, just giving you my opinion on why I hated Irish more than any of the other FORCED subjects.

Without maths, I couldn't add up my bills, count my savings, couldn't get a job as an accountant or even a shopkeeper.

Without English I can't read or write.

Without Geography I'd get lost, couldn't read a map.

Without Irish I'd be grand.

54and56 · 01-02-2017 10:24pm

mrsherself wrote: »

Well to be honest, you still haven't answered my question at all! You're also "forced" to learn maths and English and you're "forced" to have a certain amount of other subjects but you haven't said they are being "shoved down your throat".

I was an LC student in the 80's and I felt "forced" to learn Irish.

For the Inter (Junior) Cert it was obligatory like a range of subjects. The difference between being forced to do English, Maths, History, Geography etc is that they provide you with skills you need and can use in daily life as you become an adult and develop a career etc. They are necessary building blocks of education which are pretty much replicated throughout most western countries.

Irish on the other hand is not a subject which is required for use in daily life and is in fact a poor duplication of English from a pure communication perspective i.e. Practically everyone communicates through English and it's a language which is commonly used in business and travel internationally whereas Irish is used by a tiny minority of people as their main language on this small island and by virtually no one else internationally.

For the Leaving Cert the compulsory subjects were English, Maths and Irish. Two of the three are as essential to a basic education as water and air are to survival of human beings. One isn't and is leveraged into the list of "required" Leaving Cert subjects for political rather than educational reasons.

When I think of all the time I wasted trying to ensure I got a pass "D" in ordinary level Irish so as to not have a "Fail" on my results I get quite angry. It was a total waste of time which would have been better spent on another elective subject which I may have actually enjoyed and benefited from e.g. biology.

From the day I finished my Leaving Cert to this very moment I can honestly say I haven't needed "Irish" in one single situation in life. English - yes, Maths - Yes, Economics, Accountancy, Geography, History (if only for quizzes and conversations!!) and Physics etc - YES!!

Languages evolve, some blossom and become dominant (English, Spanish, Madarin etc) whereas others wither and ultimately die as the traditional speaker base adopts more effective languages through which they can communicate to a wider audience. Irish is a dying language which we shouldn't be forced to learn in order to artificially keep it alive. If people wanted to communicate via Irish they wouldn't have to be forced to do so.

ultra violet 5 · 01-02-2017 10:28pm

sryanbruen wrote: »

Beatha teanga í a labhairt!

translation , le do thoil

sryanbruen · 01-02-2017 10:28pm

ultra violet 5 wrote: »

translation , le do thoil

A language lives if it's spoken

mrsherself · 01-02-2017 10:33pm

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

I was an LC student in the 80's and I felt "forced" to learn Irish.

For the Inter (Junior) Cert it was obligatory like a range of subjects. The difference between being forced to do English, Maths, History, Geography etc is that they provide you with skills you need and can use in daily life as you become an adult and develop a career etc. They are necessary building blocks of education which are pretty much replicated throughout most western countries.

Irish on the other hand is not a subject which is required for use in daily life and is in fact a poor duplication of English from a pure communication perspective i.e. Practically everyone communicates through English and it's a language which is commonly used in business and travel internationally whereas Irish is used by a tiny minority of people as their main language on this small island and by virtually no one else internationally.

For the Leaving Cert the compulsory subjects were English, Maths and Irish. Two of the three are as essential to a basic education as water and air are to survival of human beings. One isn't and is leveraged into the list of "required" Leaving Cert subjects for political rather than educational reasons.

When I think of all the time I wasted trying to ensure I got a pass "D" in ordinary level Irish so as to not have a "Fail" on my results I get quite angry. It was a total waste of time which would have been better spent on another elective subject which I may have actually enjoyed and benefited from e.g. biology.

From the day I finished my Leaving Cert to this very moment I can honestly say I haven't needed "Irish" in one single situation in life. English - yes, Maths - Yes, Economics, Accountancy, Geography, History (if only for quizzes and conversations!!) and Physics etc - YES!!

Point taken, agreed yeah. Except I don't think I learned anything useful in secondary school English and maths and geography that you speak of there. Everything I learned that were building blocks of education (such as reading, writing, counting, percentages, mapreading etc) were all learned in primary school.

I didn't actually like Irish in school like a lot of people here. I sort of decided to start taking an interest in the language and now I've ended up teaching it! I hate that I have to teach a curriculum that, to me, drags the language down. But I've always been able to separate language from curriculum. I wish something could change.

sryanbruen · 01-02-2017 10:36pm

mrsherself wrote: »

Point taken, agreed yeah. Except I don't think I learned anything useful in secondary school English and maths and geography that you speak of there. Everything I learned that were building blocks of education (such as reading, writing, counting, percentages, mapreading etc) were all learned in primary school.

I didn't actually like Irish in school like a lot of people here. I sort of decided to start taking an interest in the language and now I've ended up teaching it! I hate that I have to teach a curriculum that, to me, drags the language down. But I've always been able to separate language from curriculum. I wish something could change.

Here's the reply to my complaint I sent the Minister for Education back in 2015 in case you're interested:

Dear Sir/Madam,

The Minister for Education and Skills, Ms. Jan O’Sullivan TD, has asked me to respond to your recent e-mails in relation to the teaching of Irish in schools.

Ireland’s constitution has enshrined Irish as the first official language of the State and it is therefore the duty of the government to uphold and protect the status of the Irish language. This has been the position of successive governments since 1937. Irish is also an official language of the European Union and is a living spoken community language in parts of Ireland.

This Government is committed to supporting the overall thrust of the 20 Year Strategy for the Irish Language 2010-2030, and to the delivery of the goals and targets proposed. As part of this, a thorough reform of the Irish curriculum and the way Irish is taught at primary and second level is being undertaken. The priority is to take steps to improve the quality and effectiveness of the teaching of Irish.

A revised Leaving Certificate curriculum in Irish began in all schools in September 2010, and was examined for the first time in 2012. The revised programme provides for an increase in the proportion of marks available for oral assessment to 40%, and is aimed at promoting a significant shift in emphasis towards Irish as a spoken language, where students can communicate and interact in a spontaneous way, and where Irish is spoken every day in schools. A review is currently underway of the oral component of Irish in the Leaving Certificate, and it is expected that a report will be published on this in early 2016.

I hope that this information is of assistance.

Yours sincerely,

Sean Tansey
Private Secretary

ultra violet 5 · 01-02-2017 10:36pm

sryanbruen wrote: »

A language lives if it's spoken

go raibh maith agat,

if i had to translate that i'd say

"má bhíonn duine ag leabhairt an teanga, tá sí beo"

mrsherself · 01-02-2017 10:37pm

Yes! It is a dying language! Definitely! And teaching it in schools is not going to resurrect it. It's an academic version of the language.

It's not dead though. It's still spoken by people naturally in gaeltacht areas. That's where I'm more concerned about it dying though.

endacl · 01-02-2017 10:38pm

Positively Negative wrote: »

I never learned any of those things you mentioned so i cant comment, just giving you my opinion on why I hated Irish more than any of the other FORCED subjects.

Without maths, I couldn't add up my bills, count my savings, couldn't get a job as an accountant or even a shopkeeper.

Without English I can't read or write.

Without Geography I'd get lost, couldn't read a map.

Without Irish I'd be grand.

Most people don't have maths. They have arithmetic. A vocabulary, if you will, as opposed to a fluency in the language of mathematics.

Without literacy you wouldn't be able to read and write. Irrespective of the language used.

Seriously? On a daily basis? You'd get lost?

mrsherself · 01-02-2017 10:40pm

Thank you for the report. Yeah, I love that oral is a much larger part of it now BUT they haven't lessened the amount of stuff on the written section really.
Everything to be studied on the curriculum is boring and/or depressing. I adore teaching Irish but that's because I have the passion for the language. But I can imagine someone who doesn't like the language - it would be so alienating and so boring for them

NickNickleby · 01-02-2017 10:41pm

I'm 61. I came to Ireland when my parents returned from UK when I was 10. I absolutely LOVED Irish, but hated how it was taught. My feeling was that those who taught it were actually convinced they were instilling nationalism into the Jackeen kids. And remember I was only 10 (well perhaps I formed this opinion over the next 5 years).

Anyway, my classes from the following year were all through Irish. No problem, loved it. Went to secondary, where classes were once again through English. No problem, I was good at it. But once again, the old 'bate it into the unpatriotic scum' seemed to be the motivation for ALL the Irish teachers.

Left school and went to work where I never used Irish again - except for 2 occasions. On one I was doing some work in Conradh na Gaeilge HQ, and when I admitted to knowing the old cúpla focail, they refused to speak English to me, so I struggled manfully along. Another time I went for an Interview, and there was a 10% bonus for Irish, so I availed of it. THIS is what gets me most - and I know, I'm a hypocrite!! or as Bertie might say "Tá mé hypocrite".

Despite this, a few years ago, I went to Comhrá sessions in the local pub, and enjoyed myself, until I detected the 'we're REAL Irish people" sentiment. Despite what I've heard many times, I don't believe Irishness is diluted by not speaking Irish.

So, to the original point of the thread:
RTE puts on programmes in Irish - with subtitles in English. If I wanted to watch a programme in Irish I'd switch to TG4. Even TG4 use English subtitles, and I suspect its to appeal to non Gaeilgeoirs , to keep up the advertising revenue.
Certain occupations require Leaving Cert Irish (Garda) when there's very little likelihood of needing to use it.
All official documents require both English and Irish versions. Where the font size differs, the larger must be used on the Irish text.
I was on a Motorway recently, the huge big sign had huge big Irish text for the name of the next town, I had to look twice to see the smaller font for the English.
Mathematical Table books - recently doing an exam and having to remember that the pages on the left (or was it the columns?) were in Irish, and skipping round trying to find what I wanted.

So, there you have it. I like Irish as a language, I presume the new generation of teachers of Irish are far removed from the raving lunatics of my youth. (I know a couple, and they seem to be refreshingly modern in their attitude). I hate with a passion the examples of stuffing it down my throat that I've listed in the previous paragraph.

Is mise,
Nick

mrsherself · 01-02-2017 10:45pm

Irish is a language with a lot of baggag e, some of it political as you mentioned. A lot of the kids I teach now are completely unaware of any affiliations the language has with the ira or nationalists etc - It's crazy how a few generations change things.

Well I have used Irish since school, any time I mentioned or heard taoiseach, tánaiste, áras an uachtaráin, na gardaí, bean an tí, gaeltacht... etc! It's everywhere! And I bet you've used those words too!

54and56 · 01-02-2017 10:48pm

mrsherself wrote: »

It's not dead though. It's still spoken by people naturally in gaeltacht areas. That's where I'm more concerned about it dying though.

But why are you concerned about it dying? It's a natural part of society evolving. We may have a chip on our collective shoulders that English was forced upon us by the Brits as a consequence of their occupation etc but since 1922 people have been free to speak whatever language they prefer and the vast majority have voted in favour of English. If the remaining few in Gaeltacht areas follow suit so what? What impact will it have on society over all? Maybe through rose tinted glasses some people will miss it but that's about it.

Positively Negative · 01-02-2017 10:54pm

I'm going by what the subjects were called at school.

OK I wouldn't get lost, but I found it usefull at some stage in life. Never ever, not even once have I needed Irish, whereas every other subject comes in handy and is needed in life.

Edit: History also is a pretty useless subject to be forced to learn. Irish and History should be choice subjects

carefulnowted · 01-02-2017 11:01pm

I am currently in leaving cert, doing HL Irish. It's not that I hate the language itself, I just resent being forced to do it year after year with no ability to opt-out. The oral aspect of it isn't too bad (and I find it's easier to get better at Irish by speaking a lot of it) but the poems and stories are ridiculously boring.

You can't deny that Irish is not essential in the life of a typical teenager. Maths and English are. Also, the skills learned in Maths and English can be applied to a variety of other subjects - physics, chemistry, applied maths, engineering, woodwork, etc for maths, as well as geography, history, home ec, etc for english (subjects where essay-writing takes a central role).

Students tend to harbour a dislike for Irish as a subject because they can't see the relevance of it to their lives, while most can understand the importance of a modern language (French, Spanish), maths, english etc.

mrsherself · 01-02-2017 11:09pm

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

But why are you concerned about it dying? It's a natural part of society evolving. We may have a chip on our collective shoulders that English was forced upon us by the Brits as a consequence of their occupation etc but since 1922 people have been free to speak whatever language they prefer and the vast majority have voted in favour of English. If the remaining few in Gaeltacht areas follow suit so what? What impact will it have on society over all? Maybe through rose tinted glasses some people will miss it but that's about it.

Well now, where do I start?! ðŸ˜‚

First of all, I not only love Irish, but languages in general, and I feel like they tell us a lot about a community of people. You can learn a lot of interesting things by learning a language. I don't like to hear about the death of any language. I would never welcome that.

Secondly, no one ever voted whether to speak Irish or English. It was a) whatever they naturally spoke growing up and/or b) whatever they had to learn to get by. A lot of native Irish speakers were forced to learn English because employment wasn't available for non-English speakers. Teenagers in the gaeltacht now know more English than Irish because they're growing up in such an interconnected world with amercan social media, English and American tv and music etc - It's everywhere. I can't help but think that's not a positive thing. When people start losing their local accents in favour of a broad American accent (you should listen to some teenagers), I cannot see any of that globalisation as a good thing.
When I go to Italy, I go because it's different, because they have a different culture, different food, a different language. I'm not happy at how amercanised Ireland is becoming. I won't be happy at the death of the Irish language either.

I guess people are different though. To each their own view.

Irish being shoved down people's throats

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