The poppy , to wear or not to wear?

jonniebgood1 · 12-11-2013 9:08pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

It requires a special logic to compare Imperialism (of whatever kind) with Nazism. There is no doubt Rebelheart you are special.

The post you reported led to ban a ban for Rebelheart Pedro. You do however need to be careful if you are reporting posts for being directed 'against the person' that you are not guilty of the same yourself. In the case quoted above you are not abusive but you are getting personal so in future please resist from temptation. There is no infraction against you in this case but heed the warning. If you (or anyone else) wish to query this then do so by PM.

Moderator.

jonniebgood1 · 12-11-2013 9:15pm

tac foley wrote: »

I thought that, having had a flaming session from a post or two of my own in the recent few days, that I might have become inured to posts like the ones I'm seeing here.

So I looked over on the other thread, now well over 120 pages long, and was truly horrifed at the wave of desperate hatred, revulsion and near psychopathic loathing for the British and things British, past and present, that pervades that thread.

How sad it all is. People from this country go over to Ireland, see and meet the Irish people on their own ground, and never, it seems to me, get to realise how desperately they are loathed and hated by at least half the population, if the posters on the other thread are anything to go by. You must be the world's best actors, that's for sure.

I'll certainly be giving any visit to Ireland again some very close consideration, and here's me with an Irish name from end to end.

For those of you with your life-long hatred to keep you warm, here on THIS part of the forum, and elsewhere, note that any person from the UK reading those awful hate-filled pages will probably choose a more friendly place to visit.

Like Afghanistan. Just like Ireland used to be in the old days that so many of you miss so badly, over there they can smile at you with a twinkle in their eye as they press the button.

tac

Do you ever question why people may hold these opinions that you find so repulsive? Honestly you need to back up with your horror and read a history book or 2. Hatred as you phrase it does not generally arise from nothing but yet you seem to ignore the cause. Rather you tar the masses with the expressed views of a minority. This is akin to tarring all British people with the views of the national front, a view equally ridiculous to that you express here.

jonniebgood1 · 12-11-2013 9:29pm

Lest anyone be fooled into thinking that objection to the symbolism of the poppy is only associated with Irish nationalism as some on here may be assuming I quote part of Robert Fisks article from the Independent entitled "Time the poppy's wilted petals of hypocrisy were thrown away"

Tolstoy caught the other side of this "non-meaning" of war in his critique of Napoleon's invasion of Russia. An "event took place", he wrote in 'War and Peace', "opposed to human reason and human nature.

Millions of men perpetrated against one another such innumerable crimes, frauds, treacheries, incendiarisms and murders, as in whole centuries are not recorded in the annals of all the law courts of the world, but which those who committed them did not at the time regard as being crimes."

It was Lewis's idea – that war was ultimately devoid of meaning – which my father was, I think, trying to capture when he described the 1914-18 conflict to me in his hospital room as "just one great waste".

He had survived that war and outlived another and the end of the British Empire, which I suspect we have not ceased mourning – could that be really what the poppies are all about? – and even lived long enough to watch the first Gulf War on television.

He often quoted what he believed to be the last words of Nurse Edith Cavell, shot in Brussels by the Germans for rescuing Allied soldiers behind enemy lines, words that are inscribed on her monument beside the National Gallery: "Patriotism is not enough."

But in full, her very last words – spoken to a British chaplain before she was executed – were these: "But this I would say, standing in view of God and eternity, I realise that patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone."
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/robert-fisk-time-the-poppys-wilted-petals-of-hypocrisy-were-thrown-away-29740083.html

With the likes of Jon Snow and Fisk refusing to wear the poppy I suggest more than blind obedience to the notion of this symbol is required to understand the more subtle objections than those thus far expressed.

tac foley · 12-11-2013 9:53pm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Do you ever question why people may hold these opinions that you find so repulsive? Honestly you need to back up with your horror and read a history book or 2. Hatred as you phrase it does not generally arise from nothing but yet you seem to ignore the cause. Rather you tar the masses with the expressed views of a minority. This is akin to tarring all British people with the views of the national front, a view equally ridiculous to that you express here.

Please read what I wrote again - 'How sad it all is. People from this country go over to Ireland, see and meet the Irish people on their own ground, and never, it seems to me, get to realise how desperately they are loathed and hated by at least half the population, if the posters on the other thread are anything to go by.'

My father was a fighter in the War of Independence, and went to prison for his actions. He was a soldier for the Free State Army in the Civil War, and lived in the fear that any day he might have to shoot his own brother. I was a soldier, too, and spent many an unhappy day in Ireland over the years. So I don't need a lecture on what happened in the past, Sir, from you or anybody else.

However, if I can smile, albeit crookedly, at the sight of a Sinn Feín councillor standing bare-headed in public in Belfast, the capital city of Northern Ireland, on Remembrance Day, and to look at the first minister, who once spent his time trying to blow up an ancient city, then I expect nothing less from those posters on the other thread to let the hate die down, and get on with life as it is, not as they wish it had been down the paths of violence.

That thread is now fast approaching 200 pages, much of it making unpleasant reading for those who think that the entire Irish people are their friends.

Unless you ban me from this site, as I know you are quite able to do, I won't be going anywhere soon, much to the annoyance of a good few posters here. I may well be the only person here who is not 100% Irish, and I have my own simple agenda. That is to get on with people in peace.

tac

Jawgap · 12-11-2013 10:42pm

I think people read too much into wearing / not wearing a poppy.

I wear it primarily because some strangers showed compassion to someone I was quite fond of. If that's their symbol I'm happy to contribute and raise some small awareness of the work they do for a few days a year.

To a much lesser degree I wear it to commemorate other family members who served (thankfully not at the cost of their lives) in the Connaught Rangers & Irish Guards. It's very much a personal decision.

If someone decides to interpret the wearing (or not wearing) of a poppy in a more political context, that's their problem and no one else's.

pedroeibar1 · 13-11-2013 12:50am

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Lest anyone be fooled into thinking that objection to the symbolism of the poppy is only associated with Irish nationalism as some on here may be assuming I quote part of Robert Fisks article from the Independent entitled "Time the poppy's wilted petals of hypocrisy were thrown away"

With the likes of Jon Snow and Fisk refusing to wear the poppy I suggest more than blind obedience to the notion of this symbol is required to understand the more subtle objections than those thus far expressed.

I take your point but only to a certain extent, because there is a huge difference between a cogent, reasoned argument such as the one put forward by Bob Fisk and the clear anti-British invective contained in the content posted (not for the first time) by several on this topic.

I have no idea where your suggestion on ‘blind obedience to the notion of this symbol’ comes from – that is not apparent from most of the posts in this thread. I contribute to the RBL or the RNLI or the VdeP or Concern or Peter McVerry because of what they do on the charity front, not because of anything else. I no more support the British than I do the Catholic Church. That is the way it is with most people – money goes to a worthwhile cause – nothing whatsoever to do with ‘blind obedience’. My relatives who fought and survived in both wars did not have to depend on the RBL, but I am happy to contribute to it for those that need it, and to the other charities be they for sailors in distress, young homeless or the extremely needy. I respect and honour what they do.

Maybe I misunderstand the rules of Boards but I find it strange that you see fit to quote Nurse Cavell in full - "But this I would say, standing in view of God and eternity, I realise that patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone" and yet at the same time the Mods have allowed rampant racism to stand untouched on this and several other threads and infractions/bans are dished out/threatened only for personal abuse.

Potatoeman · 13-11-2013 12:11pm

tac foley wrote: »

Please read what I wrote again - 'How sad it all is. People from this country go over to Ireland, see and meet the Irish people on their own ground, and never, it seems to me, get to realise how desperately they are loathed and hated by at least half the population, if the posters on the other thread are anything to go by.'

My father was a fighter in the War of Independence, and went to prison for his actions. He was a soldier for the Free State Army in the Civil War, and lived in the fear that any day he might have to shoot his own brother. I was a soldier, too, and spent many an unhappy day in Ireland over the years. So I don't need a lecture on what happened in the past, Sir, from you or anybody else.

However, if I can smile, albeit crookedly, at the sight of a Sinn Feín councillor standing bare-headed in public in Belfast, the capital city of Northern Ireland, on Remembrance Day, and to look at the first minister, who once spent his time trying to blow up an ancient city, then I expect nothing less from those posters on the other thread to let the hate die down, and get on with life as it is, not as they wish it had been down the paths of violence.

That thread is now fast approaching 200 pages, much of it making unpleasant reading for those who think that the entire Irish people are their friends.

Unless you ban me from this site, as I know you are quite able to do, I won't be going anywhere soon, much to the annoyance of a good few posters here. I may well be the only person here who is not 100% Irish, and I have my own simple agenda. That is to get on with people in peace.

tac

So Irish people should not have a negative opinion of Britian but you have a chip on you shoulder about Sinn Fein?

Most people on here dont hate individual British people but the actions of that empire had a very negative impact on Ireland. In fact the fact Britian was a colonial power caused friction with the Americians when Brittian needed aid during world war 1 and 2. There was unease aiding them particuarly considering their exploitation of countries like India where people were treated little better than slaves.

Jawgap · 13-11-2013 12:40pm

Potatoeman wrote: »

So Irish people should not have a negative opinion of Britian but you have a chip on you shoulder about Sinn Fein?

Most people on here dont hate individual British people but the actions of that empire had a very negative impact on Ireland. In fact the fact Britian was a colonial power caused friction with the Americians when Brittian needed aid during world war 1 and 2. There was unease aiding them particuarly considering their exploitation of countries like India where people were treated little better than slaves.

I'll freely admit to being an Anglo-phile. I lived there for a few years and found them not at all bad.

In that vein, let's not confuse history with myth. Did the colonial administration do some nasty things - yes, they did. But they also had important and beneficial impacts elsewhere in Irish society (public health, economic and trade, social etc) as well as the empire providing serious opportunities for Irishmen (and women) to earn a living at various levels. Often that living was earned at the expense of other locals and 'colonials' - and Irishmen often inflicted the same oppression on 'natives' that bridled so much at home.

Also, lets not kid ourselves that when independence was won that somehow this island became a land of milk and honey. What followed wasn't "religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities" for all, nor were the children 'cherished' except by the local clergy. In fact if anything instead of bending the knee to a monarch in London, we turned instead to bending the knee and kissing the ring of a resident of Drumcondra!

And while we're merrily wandering away from the topic, I'll also admit to having a chip about Sinn Fein - lets not forget what they are part of, what they did and what they are trying to airbrush from history.

......and finally - to be utterly simplistic - as bad and all as the Brits might have been - they weren't as bad as Stalin!!!

Potatoeman · 13-11-2013 1:50pm

Jawgap wrote: »

I'll freely admit to being an Anglo-phile. I lived there for a few years and found them not at all bad.

In that vein, let's not confuse history with myth. Did the colonial administration do some nasty things - yes, they did. But they also had important and beneficial impacts elsewhere in Irish society (public health, economic and trade, social etc) as well as the empire providing serious opportunities for Irishmen (and women) to earn a living at various levels. Often that living was earned at the expense of other locals and 'colonials' - and Irishmen often inflicted the same oppression on 'natives' that bridled so much at home.

Also, lets not kid ourselves that when independence was won that somehow this island became a land of milk and honey. What followed wasn't "religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities" for all, nor were the children 'cherished' except by the local clergy. In fact if anything instead of bending the knee to a monarch in London, we turned instead to bending the knee and kissing the ring of a resident of Drumcondra!

And while we're merrily wandering away from the topic, I'll also admit to having a chip about Sinn Fein - lets not forget what they are part of, what they did and what they are trying to airbrush from history.

......and finally - to be utterly simplistic - as bad and all as the Brits might have been - they weren't as bad as
Stalin!!!

I never said it was perfect here after British rule but these were our mistakes to make. The development made under Bristish rule does not excuse their occupation and as most empires they draw wealth into their empire homeland and away from their colonies. Thats how they work.
You seem to have an issue with SFs history but they only existed because of British occupation. Our small population is a direct result of the famines impact on this country. We would be a very different place without the occupation.
Im aware of Stalins bloody rein but it does not excuse the actions of other powers at the time.

Jawgap · 13-11-2013 2:25pm

Potatoeman wrote: »

I never said it was perfect here after British rule but these were our mistakes to make. The development made under Bristish rule does not excuse their occupation and as most empires they draw wealth into their empire homeland and away from their colonies. Thats how they work.
You seem to have an issue with SFs history but they only existed because of British occupation. Our small population is a direct result of the famines impact on this country. We would be a very different place without the occupation.
Im aware of Stalins bloody rein but it does not excuse the actions of other powers at the time.

Seriously, I think you need to take a trip around our national museums and national library......

Up until about the middle part of the second decade of the last century, the notion that Ireland was 'occupied' was a fanciful one held by a few romantic fools.....

Yes, empires draw from their colonies - they draw in raw materials, cultural artifacts etc and tie them into restrictive trading arrangements. That explains why, for instance, our National Museum has an Egyptian collection that extends to more than 3,000 objects! Acquired, along with thousands of other objects from Persia, India and the Far East, because of its connections with the British Museum. I must have missed the bit where we've said we're going to give them back:rolleyes:

Never mind the fact that when you read down the list of great, good and not so good personalities who shaped the empire you see there's a lot of Irish names in there and a lot of Irish regiments with a lot of Irish farm boys.

Let's not re-write history, just because we're embarrassed by it. And let's also acknowledge facts - Ireland's pre-independence GDP exceeded that of Britain. The ill conceived Economic War reduced us from a situation from where we were doing pretty well in terms of national wealth to one where we fell to the bottom of the pile. It was an ill conceived affair brought on by Dev's protectionists notions.

....and if SF raison d'etre is linked to the 'British occupation' how come they are expending so much effort to increase their representation south of the border?

Anyway, I can clearly see where this is going so my last word on it will be to quote Casement from the letter he sent to the officer responsible for his custody before he was executed........

“Whatever you may think of my attitude towards your Government and the Realm I would only ask you to keep one thing, in that good heart of yours – and that is that a man may fight a country and its policy and yet not hate any individual of that country . . .”

Jawgap · 13-11-2013 2:47pm

Potatoeman wrote: »

I never said it was perfect here after British rule but these were our mistakes to make. The development made under Bristish rule does not excuse their occupation and as most empires they draw wealth into their empire homeland and away from their colonies. Thats how they work.
You seem to have an issue with SFs history but they only existed because of British occupation. Our small population is a direct result of the famines impact on this country. We would be a very different place without the occupation.
Im aware of Stalins bloody rein but it does not excuse the actions of other powers at the time.

Final, final word.....

You might want to consider the appropriateness of describing the systematic child abuse that characterised the first 70 or so years of the State's independent existence as a "mistake."

I think we're well off topic now......

jonniebgood1 · 13-11-2013 2:58pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I have no idea where your suggestion on ‘blind obedience to the notion of this symbol’ comes from – that is not apparent from most of the posts in this thread. I contribute to the RBL or the RNLI or the VdeP or Concern or Peter McVerry because of what they do on the charity front, not because of anything else. I no more support the British than I do the Catholic Church. That is the way it is with most people – money goes to a worthwhile cause – nothing whatsoever to do with ‘blind obedience’. My relatives who fought and survived in both wars did not have to depend on the RBL, but I am happy to contribute to it for those that need it, and to the other charities be they for sailors in distress, young homeless or the extremely needy. I respect and honour what they do.
.

Blind obedience refers to the general insistence in some quarters that people must wear the poppy, generally seen in British media for example.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Maybe I misunderstand the rules of Boards but I find it strange that you see fit to quote Nurse Cavell in full - "But this I would say, standing in view of God and eternity, I realise that patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone" and yet at the same time the Mods have allowed rampant racism to stand untouched on this and several other threads and infractions/bans are dished out/threatened only for personal abuse.

I quoted Fisk if you read my post.

In any case I don't agree with you that people should not express their opinion if it is genuinely felt on a nationalistic basis. I do not in this case censor such opinion nor should I be asked to.

jonniebgood1 · 13-11-2013 3:01pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Final, final word.....

You might want to consider the appropriateness of describing the systematic child abuse that characterised the first 70 or so years of the State's independent existence as a "mistake."

I think we're well off topic now......

You are way off topic as you note, thus making your point utterly irrelevant to the topic under discussion.

jonniebgood1 · 13-11-2013 3:04pm

tac foley wrote: »

However, if I can smile, albeit crookedly, at the sight of a Sinn Feín councillor standing bare-headed in public in Belfast, the capital city of Northern Ireland, on Remembrance Day, and to look at the first minister, who once spent his time trying to blow up an ancient city, then I expect nothing less from those posters on the other thread to let the hate die down, and get on with life as it is, not as they wish it had been down the paths of violence.

...

tac

I am not sure you grasp that there are more than Republican objectors to the poppy.

To prove me wrong could you outline the particular objections that are widely reported on by the Channel 4 news Jon Snow.???

Santa Cruz · 13-11-2013 8:12pm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

I am not sure you grasp that there are more than Republican objectors to the poppy.

To prove me wrong could you outline the particular objections that are widely reported on by the Channel 4 news Jon Snow.???

If they were true Republicans they would treat those with different opinions with respect. But as we know they have hijacked Republicanism for their own ends

Jawgap · 13-11-2013 8:43pm

Jon Snow objects to wearing the poppy on air because of what he described as "poppy fascism."

Incidentally, all the money raised in Ireland stays in Ireland. Sure, some of it will be used to help a few blow-in Brits, but most of it will go to help Irish citizens and their families who have a genuine need. It's Irish people helping Irish people.

Incidentally, you don't have to wear the big "Flanders poppy" - there's a very nice (and fairly discreet) ceramic lapel pin available - a poppy superimposed and centred on a shamrock. That's the one I wear.

tac foley · 13-11-2013 9:05pm

Jawgap wrote: »

...a poppy superimposed and centred on a shamrock. That's the one I wear.

Now THAT's something I'd like to see. If I'd known there was such a thing, I would have worn one in memory of my grandfather.

I must ask an Irish friend if he can find one for me sometime.

tac

kabakuyu · 13-11-2013 9:09pm

Paddy Harte MEP proposed this some years ago. It is somethining I would wear quite happily,like alot of Irish people I had family that served in the BA and the old IRA.The development of such a hybrid poppy should be encouraged so that we have a more Irish connection with the poppy.

http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/news/local-news/poppy-shamrock-hybrid-in-honour-of-irish-war-dead-1-2099672

Pic of Irish poppy here http://www.freewebs.com/irishregimentsofthebritisharmy/

Jawgap · 13-11-2013 9:34pm

Ask and ye shall receive.....

Can be ordered online from here...

http://rbl-limerick.webs.com/

I got mine in the Royal Irish Fusiliers Regimental Museum in Armagh along with a "Descendant of WWI Veteran" pin.

tac foley · 13-11-2013 11:13pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Ask and ye shall receive.....

Can be ordered online from here...

http://rbl-limerick.webs.com/

I got mine in the Royal Irish Fusiliers Regimental Museum in Armagh along with a "Descendant of WWI Veteran" pin.

Done, thank you, Sir.

tac

Dr.Tank Adams · 13-11-2013 11:37pm

Whatever value it had originally (not much tbh) has been completely diluted by the rampant jingoism that has become attached to it in recent years.

johnny_doyle · 14-11-2013 1:33am

Dr.Tank Adams wrote: »

Whatever value it had originally (not much tbh) has been completely diluted by the rampant jingoism that has become attached to it in recent years.

switch off the TV/put down the paper and go along to an RBL event and see if you can spot any signs of jingoism.

Potatoeman · 14-11-2013 9:59am

Jawgap wrote: »

Seriously, I think you need to take a trip around our national museums and national library......

Up until about the middle part of the second decade of the last century, the notion that Ireland was 'occupied' was a fanciful one held by a few romantic fools.....

Yes, empires draw from their colonies - they draw in raw materials, cultural artifacts etc and tie them into restrictive trading arrangements. That explains why, for instance, our National Museum has an Egyptian collection that extends to more than 3,000 objects! Acquired, along with thousands of other objects from Persia, India and the Far East, because of its connections with the British Museum. I must have missed the bit where we've said we're going to give them back:rolleyes:

Never mind the fact that when you read down the list of great, good and not so good personalities who shaped the empire you see there's a lot of Irish names in there and a lot of Irish regiments with a lot of Irish farm boys.

Let's not re-write history, just because we're embarrassed by it. And let's also acknowledge facts - Ireland's pre-independence GDP exceeded that of Britain. The ill conceived Economic War reduced us from a situation from where we were doing pretty well in terms of national wealth to one where we fell to the bottom of the pile. It was an ill conceived affair brought on by Dev's protectionists notions.

....and if SF raison d'etre is linked to the 'British occupation' how come they are expending so much effort to increase their representation south of the border?

Anyway, I can clearly see where this is going so my last word on it will be to quote Casement from the letter he sent to the officer responsible for his custody before he was executed........

A few romantic fools alright. Youre talking about GDP but that does not reflect where the money is going or who is getting it. People adapted to life under British rule and adjusted but it was an occupation. I noticed you didnt mention the famine in your response eithrer. That alone made the occupation negative for Ireland.

Jawgap · 14-11-2013 10:54am

Potatoeman wrote: »

A few romantic fools alright. Youre talking about GDP but that does not reflect where the money is going or who is getting it. People adapted to life under British rule and adjusted but it was an occupation. I noticed you didnt mention the famine in your response eithrer. That alone made the occupation negative for Ireland.

Yes, and you didn't mention the the Old-Age Pensions Act 1908 and its administration in Ireland - now maybe we can move on, in the best traditions of these debates, to whose grandfather shot whose

Rather than drag the thread back off the rails can I suggest you read a book or two then start a new thread into which you can pour all this well worn anti-British, hyper-critical invective and I can safely ignore it in the pursuit of some kind of informed discussion.

tac foley · 14-11-2013 10:58am

It is ironic indeed to notice that our friend potatoeman [sic] chooses to write his posts in the English language and not Irish.

Had it not been for the timely interference of many others who spoke the English language, this post and all preceding it may well have been written in either German, or, far more likely, Russian.

tac

Potatoeman · 14-11-2013 11:01am

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, and you didn't mention the the Old-Age Pensions Act 1908 and its administration in Ireland - now maybe we can move on, in the best traditions of these debates, to whose grandfather shot whose

Rather than drag the thread back off the rails can I suggest you read a book or two then start a new thread into which you can pour all this well worn anti-British, hyper-critical invective and I can safely ignore it in the pursuit of some kind of informed discussion.

If you were following the thread you would know that my issues were with people claiming the British empire was good for Ireland. It wasn't and many choose to interrupt this as hatred for all British people. It isn't.

Jawgap · 14-11-2013 11:11am

tac foley wrote: »

It is ironic indeed to notice that our friend potatoeman [sic] chooses to write his posts in the English language and not Irish.

Had it not been for the timely interference of many others who spoke the English language, this post and all preceding it may well have been written in either German, or, far more likely, Russian.

tac

Probably would have been French - and it automatically would have sounded sexier and better

or Spanish - in which case we'd have a pretty rubbish rugby team, but a decent football one - Barcelona would be the team of choice for people who've never attended a football ground instead of Manchester United (I'd like to think we wouldn't have supported Franco

)

gobnaitolunacy · 14-11-2013 11:16am

I fear threads of this ilk have a tendancy to descend into the usual whataboutery and cat-calling.

Question: Why can't the uk govt 'look after' its soldiery better these days rather than the need for a charity take up the slack?

tac foley · 14-11-2013 11:19am

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

I fear threads of this ilk have a tendancy to descend into the usual whataboutery and cat-calling.

Question: Why can't the uk govt 'look after' its soldiery better these days rather than the need for a charity take up the slack?

I'm sure that you can tell me who looks after Irish veterans.

tac

Jawgap · 14-11-2013 11:20am

Potatoeman wrote: »

If you were following the thread you would know that my issues were with people claiming the British empire was good for Ireland. It wasn't and many choose to interrupt this as hatred for all British people. It isn't.

Can you start a separate thread on this?

The issue isn't whether the British Empire was 'good' or 'bad' for Ireland, the issue is people trying to re-write history to remove the grey bits - of which there were many - and define everything in black and white.

The - let's call it - 'Republican Narrative' is that the country was occupied by a foreign force and we (the Irish people) suffered under the heel of a brutal and repressive regime.

Whereas even a cursory reading of the contemporary sources reveals - in the words of Dermot Ferriter - "a nationalist movement that would not lament the passing of British rule, but was comfortable with the trappings of Empire." In fact, the main criticism that the nationalist / home rule movement were lobbing at Dublin Castle in the early 1900s was that the home rule movement was being killed with kindness!

......and that really is my final word on this, in this thread. Start a dedicated thread and take it on from there.

The poppy , to wear or not to wear?

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