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How do you convince people god exists?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Well that's true I suppose - no one wants a stay in the auld fiery gulag!


  • Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭Hobosan


    Well that's true I suppose - no one wants a stay in the auld fiery gulag!

    There's no evidence for God, but someone must be held responsible for this meat grinder, so for that reason, I choose to believe.

    None of that afterlife crap. The bastard is hiding in this Universe, and we must track him down and submit him to a round of 'Unit - 731' style testing.

    The question shouldn't be 'Does God Exist?'; It should be, 'On the off Chance God Exists, Why is He Trying to Track Himself Down With The Intention of Performing a Live Vivisection on Himself?'


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    He certainly deserves it!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    The sort of place an ever loving omnipotent being could easily create you mean?

    I just don't get the adoration at all [...]
    Stockholm Syndrome:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,857 ✭✭✭dogbert27


    Why stop at God?

    How do you convince people heaven exists?
    How do you convince people hell exists?
    How do you convince people purgatory exists?

    How do you convince people the devil exists, angels, demons, etc.?

    A universal law is the conservation of energy, energy cannot be created nor destroyed but converted from one form to another so do we truly die or change to a different form of energy?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium




    I like Fry, but could never work out the illogicality of being so angry and having an unhinged rant with something you claim you don't believes exists.
    It's not as if he was being asked about believers /religion either, he was asked a hypothetical question about what he would say to God if he meets him in the afterlife. Very curious reaction. Mine would be more like ". . you exist . . .hmm . . wasn't expecting that . . .so what's your true nature in comparison to what we were told on earth . . . how much of it was true ?"

    I can't imagine my response to "what will you say to a leprechaun if you ever meet one" would be to work myself up into a hysterical frenzy imagining all the complaining I'm going to do something I don't believe even exists. Very bizarre.

    Maybe I should be working myself up into a frenzy about how I never found one of it's pots of gold at the end of the rainbow ? . . . . YOU WANKER LEPRECHAUNS !!! WHERE WAS THE POT OF GOLD REALLY HIDDEN ??? WHATS THAT ALL ABOUT !!! I'M GOING TO GET YOU LITTLE FECKERS. HOW DARE YOU !!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    Nikki Sixx wrote: »
    People who have died and come back

    Nobody has ever died and "come back".

    Nikki Sixx wrote: »
    For me the seasons and the way nature moves in cycles is fascinating. I find it too hard to believe that say the seasons, the way animals hibernate each year and the dependence of flowers on honey bees to complete their life cycle, is all an accident. But I’m sure I’ll be regarded as simple for saying that.

    Ah the old argument from design. Douglas Adams compared it to a puddle thinking its hole in the ground was perfectly made just for it:
    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Douglas_Adams#cite_note-1

    You don't appear to be at all familar with the basic concepts of evolution. You don't need a god to explain the existence of the earth or life on it.

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    There are no atheists in foxholes.

    13340719_10154262060484533_661667113_o.jpg

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Nobelium wrote: »
    I like Fry, but could never work out the illogicality of being so angry with something you claim you don't believes exists.
    Gay Byrne posed a hypothetical and Fry replied with clarity and some wit to the question, pointing out, completely accurately, that many religious claim that their deity is in some sense, all-loving, and that this claim is demonstrably untrue. But rather than honestly accepting this and honestly replying to it, the vast majority of religious people prefer instead to ignore that it is false and simply carry on making the claim.

    Public dishonesty should be a matter of shame for the people concerned, but for some reason - and I believe it annoys most non-religious people and is probably what annoys Fry here - religion is simply given a free pass and the dishonesty is simply hand-waved away.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    robindch wrote: »
    Gay Byrne posed a hypothetical and Fry replied with clarity and some wit to the question, pointing out, completely accurately, that many religious claim that their deity is in some sense, all-loving, and that this claim is demonstrably untrue. But rather than honestly accepting this and honestly replying to it, the vast majority of religious people prefer instead to ignore that it is false and simply carry on making the claim.

    Public dishonesty should be a matter of shame for the people concerned, but for some reason - and I believe it annoys most non-religious people and is probably what annoys Fry here - religion is simply given a free pass and the dishonesty is simply hand-waved away.

    I get all this, but instead Fry's reaction wasn't to complain about some of the illogical claims of some believers/religions, but instead a full on emotional and angry rant at an entity he claims he doesn't believe even exists. Not very convincing of non belief. I'd be more like "meh . . so what else it true . . .and not true"


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,995 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    robindch wrote: »
    Fry replied with clarity and some wit to the question, pointing out, completely accurately, that many religious claim that their deity is in some sense, all-loving, and that this claim is demonstrably untrue.
    i have found that one of the better 'god doesn't have your best interests at heart' arguments - albeit a sarcastic one - is that when he sent his one and only son to save Man, his son didn't suggest anything along the lines of 'hey guys, you really should wash your hands after you have a ****, and boil your water before drinking it'.
    poor ould jesus seemed to have been restricted to passing on advice which was already known at the time, which was weird considering he was a god.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Nobelium wrote: »
    I get all this, but instead Fry's reaction wasn't to complain about some of the illogical claims of some believers/religions, but instead a full on emotional and angry rant at an entity he claims he doesn't believe even exists. Not very convincing of non belief. I'd be more like "meh . . so what else it true . . .and not true"

    He was replying in the context of Byrne's hypothetical scenario where God did exist.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    atheist in foxholes

    I get their point than circumstances might not alter someone belief / non belief, but the pic isn't very convincing. They are in a barracks, in barracks uniform, with a whiteboard, under a shady palm tree.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    i have found that one of the better 'god doesn't have your best interests at heart' arguments - albeit a sarcastic one - is that when he sent his one and only son to save Man, his son didn't suggest anything along the lines of 'hey guys, you really should wash your hands after you have a ****, and boil your water before drinking it'.
    poor ould jesus seemed to have been restricted to passing on advice which was already known at the time, which was weird considering he was a god.

    Ah yeah, but water into wine though. Who wouldn't want a mate like that at a party? :)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    smacl wrote: »
    He was replying in the context of Byrne's hypothetical scenario where God did exist.

    I know, I said that in the post, but I can't see how I could work myself up into a frenzy about hypothetically meeting something that I believe doesn't even exist and then giving this thing I don't believe exists an emotional and angry telling off.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    i have found that one of the better 'god doesn't have your best interests at heart' arguments - albeit a sarcastic one - is that when he sent his one and only son to save Man, his son didn't suggest anything along the lines of 'hey guys, you really should wash your hands after you have a ****, and boil your water before drinking it'.
    poor ould jesus seemed to have been restricted to passing on advice which was already known at the time, which was weird considering he was a god.

    Pretty sure they washed themselves and boiled water or drank some kind of alcohol instead, but like he didn't even bring a smart phone and some prozac with him.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Nobelium wrote: »
    I know, I said that in the post, but I can't see how I could work myself up into a frenzy about hypothetically meeting something that I believe doesn't even exist and then giving this thing I don't believe exists an emotional and angry telling off.

    The point wasn't what he believed or not though, it was an illustration that the notion of a loving Christian God is baloney. What he left on the table was either a god that doesn't exist or a god that was indifferent at best to the interests of humanity. If you accept that, it clearly tells us that Christianity is more about power than love.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    smacl wrote: »
    The point wasn't what he believed or not though, it was an illustration that the notion of a loving Christian God is baloney. What he left on the table was either a god that doesn't exist or a god that was indifferent at best to the interests of humanity. If you accept that, it clearly tells us that Christianity is more about power than love.

    Yeah but ranting at a so called God that is indifferent at best to the interests of humanity isn't actual atheism. I can't get emotionally worked up into having a hypothetical rant with something I genuinely believe doesn't even exist, and even if it turned out to . .I would actually know nothing about what is true and not about it, or what kind of entity it even was.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭victor8600


    Nobelium wrote: »
    Yeah but ranting at a so called God that is indifferent at best to the interests of humanity isn't actual atheism. ...

    True. Also a 'merciful' God could still be a complete monster. Genghis Khan could be called 'merciful' during the siege of Bukhara:
    According to Juvaini, after Genghis Khan took Bukhara "he contented himself with looting and slaughter only once and did not go to the extreme of a general massacre" as he did in Khorasan, although most of the city burned. He chose a moderate path between mercy and punishment because the population readily submitted while the garrison in the citadel resisted.

    So a merciful God may flood the whole known world, drowning everybody. But It is merciful, so selected people are allowed to live. :pac:




  • victor8600 wrote: »
    So a merciful God may flood the whole known world, drowning everybody. But It is merciful, so selected people are allowed to live. :pac:

    Yeah, but he did it because people were idiots..


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    victor8600 wrote: »
    True. Also a 'merciful' God could still be a complete monster. Genghis Khan could be called 'merciful' during the siege of Bukhara:

    So a merciful God may flood the whole known world, drowning everybody. But It is merciful, so selected people are allowed to live. :pac:

    Nah . . .I'd be expecting more a Freddy Mercury type character to be honest


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,946 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    dogbert27 wrote: »
    Why stop at God?

    How do you convince people heaven exists?
    How do you convince people hell exists?
    How do you convince people purgatory exists?

    How do you convince people the devil exists, angels, demons, etc.?

    A universal law is the conservation of energy, energy cannot be created nor destroyed but converted from one form to another so do we truly die or change to a different form of energy?

    Metabolised by bugs, but a fair bit of energy is dissipated by heat.

    Of course, the question of consciousness extending beyond the body is tied in with panpsychism, which could be argued to some extent. There are still open questions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,393 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    According to the science boffins there are ten or eleven dimensions.
    Could be a perfectly simple scientific explanation for our consciences to leak into another dimension.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,946 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    kneemos wrote: »
    According to the science boffins there are ten or eleven dimensions.
    Could be a perfectly simple scientific explanation for our consciences to leak into another dimension.

    I would regard consciousness as a process rather than a type of fluid.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,443 ✭✭✭jobeenfitz


    Maybe god had a mental breakdown? If I was responsible for the human race I might feck off to another universe n pretend it wasn't me. So mental breakdown or just had enough of yee Cu***.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Yeah, but he did it because people were idiots..

    Perfectly reasonable excuse for genocide I'm sure. Killing people that you made because you made them too stupid. Of course being omniscient he obviously knew he'd made them too stupid in advance and was going to slaughter them. All in a days work for a merciful lord no doubt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,857 ✭✭✭dogbert27


    igCorcaigh wrote: »
    Metabolised by bugs, but a fair bit of energy is dissipated by heat.

    Of course, the question of consciousness extending beyond the body is tied in with panpsychism, which could be argued to some extent. There are still open questions.

    You're decaying body gets eaten by a bug with transfer of energy, that gets eaten by a chicken with transfer of energy that gets eaten by a human with transfer of energy to procreates with transfer of energy to form a zygote and hence re-incarnation!

    Well done, you've cracked it! :pac:




  • smacl wrote: »
    Yeah, but he did it because people were idiots..

    Perfectly reasonable excuse for genocide I'm sure. Killing people that you made because you made them too stupid. Of course being omniscient he obviously knew he'd made them too stupid in advance and was going to slaughter them. All in a days work for a merciful lord no doubt.

    It was because they were too loud..

    Understandable..


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    It was because they were too loud..

    Understandable..

    You'd think an omnipotent deity might've just said 'shush!' in that case rather than resorting to genocide. Not so much a vengeful God as a grumpy all powerful psychopath. And the Christians are afraid of the Devil, makes you wonder whether they've backed the right horse there?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭victor8600


    It was because they were too loud..

    Understandable..

    I would say it was a merciful deed to put them down, to prevent the unnecessary suffering of all parties ;)


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