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New (Hybrid) Bus For Dublin?

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  • 02-02-2016 7:53pm
    #1
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭


    Any chance we might get see the Wrightbus Hybrid on Dublin's streets at some point in the future?

    As a big fan of the NBFL (Borismaster) I have always wondered, might Dublin Bus be interested in such a beast? Does Dublin Bus have any interest in Hybrid/Diesel-Electric technology?

    7980617401_8291063729_z.jpg

    A Mock-up of how one might look in Dublin.......


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    #2
    Stevek101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭Stevek101


    www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-bus-refused-funding-for-trial-of-hybrid-buses-1.2510039

    Unlikely at this rate. 110 new buses this year. Most likely all SG models as in past 2 years.


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    #3
    Stevek101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭Stevek101


    www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-bus-refused-funding-for-trial-of-hybrid-buses-1.2510039

    Unlikely at this rate. 110 new buses this year. Most likely all SG models as in past 2 years.


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    #4
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Umm, thank's for that, but what a shame the Guv won't even fund a trial...


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    #5
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Umm, thank's for that, but what a shame the Guv won't even fund a trial...

    Perhaps it's due to Dublin Bus already having some operational experience of diesel/electric hybrids,courtesy of the Wrightbus group.

    The original vehicle,WH1,first arrived in Dublin at the end of 2008 on a three year trial.

    The Minister of the day,Mr Martin Cullen,was moved to exclaim....
    "An equally significant announcement was also made by Mr Cullen during his visit as the Minister also confirmed that, with his support, Dublin Bus has agreed with Wrights to supply a hybrid electric double deck vehicle, describing it as a move to advance the sustainable agenda within Dublin Bus.

    More recently,in 2014,Dublin Bus trialled one of the Wrightbus group's more recent versions to TfL specification...Numberred DM2,it operated out of Conyngham Road depot.

    The reality with Hybrid vehicles is that they are compromises,and in many cases not very good one's.

    Generally unless Central Government's climb on board with significant ongoing financial subsidization,then Hybrids make little commercial sense.

    The most basic element in the Hybrid package,the Battery and the current technology surrounding it,has some significant question marks remaining over it.

    With Lithium continuing to be the most popular element in Hybrid Battery construction,maintaining a reliable and sustainable source of this scarce mineral is already problematical..with China,Bolivia,Chile and Peru the most prolific sources accompanied by many significant ecological issues in their mining regions.

    https://www.foeeurope.org/sites/default/files/publications/13_factsheet-lithium-gb.pdf

    Whilst it may suit Local Politicians in many developed countries to puff-up Hybrid operation,there are some worrying aspects which merit consideration...

    http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/01/19/tesla-motors-dirty-little-secret-is-a-major-proble.aspx

    http://www.timescolonist.com/opinion/letters/mining-lithium-causes-environmental-problems-1.1813923

    http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/hold-smugness-tesla-might-just-worse-environment-know/

    With TfL's London committment to a Zero Emission Zone from 2020 now fast approaching,it is little surprise that London's Hybrid fleet is increasing rapidly.

    However,what is less easy to deduct is the actual operational and eficiency benefits,when the Central Government "Green Bus Funding" support is factored out.

    Going Hybrid also means going Hysbuvention,and that is something which modern Politics deems difficult to countenance.

    Going Green is an expensive option :)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #6
    donkey balls
    Registered Users Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭donkey balls


    There is two bus operators in Aberdeen using buses that are run on Hydrogen fuel cells only by product/emissions is water vapor.


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    #7
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    donkey balls wrote: »
    There is two bus operators in Aberdeen using buses that are run on Hydrogen fuel cells only by product/emissions is water vapor.

    True indeed,however it's far greater scenario than just a few oul buses...

    http://www.shfca.org.uk/news_article/274/
    The city council has secured £9.2million of EU funding towards the projects, has committed to contribute £2million over four years and will secure a further £9.3million of funding from project partners. At a meeting of the Full Council, councillors approved the authority's participation in the High V.Lo City, HyTransit, HyTrEc and LOWCAP cluster projects, subject to securing 90% of additional funding from external partners.

    So the total cost of the project is c.£Stg 20,500,000...some of which comes directly from the Ratepayers of Aberdeen.

    Unless we can secure a few more "External Partners" this type of experimentation is likely to remain a "Foreign" matter for now.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #8
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    donkey balls wrote: »
    There is two bus operators in Aberdeen using buses that are run on Hydrogen fuel cells only by product/emissions is water vapor.

    A waste of money, time, and energy, fool cells are a joke



    The future is electric :D
    London's famed red buses are set to receive a little dash of green, thanks to five new all-electric additions to the fleet. After being formally received at a ceremony last week, the new local emissions-free vehicles will now be rolled out along service routes where pollution is of particular concern.

    Developed by Chinese car and rechargeable battery maker BYD, the air conditioned double-decker buses measure 10.2 m (33.46 ft) long and can each carry 81 passengers; 54 seated and 27 standing. The buses are powered by 345 kWh iron phosphate batteries and have a range of 190 mi (305 km).

    Charging equipment will be installed at service operator Metroline's Willesden Bus Garage in north London, where the buses will be recharged in four hours overnight. BYD says the buses are capable of carrying out most daily duty cycles.


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    #9
    skywanderer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 334 ✭✭skywanderer


    Why not go for CNG or LPG, it would reduce emissions and is a tried and proven technology unlike Hybrids and electric running.


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    #10
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I thought Dublin Bus had some natural gas buses a few years ago. Maybe that was somewhere else.

    It may have been Bus Eireann


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    #11
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 12,962 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I thought Dublin Bus had some natural gas buses a few years ago. Maybe that was somewhere else.

    It may have been Bus Eireann

    Dublin Bus had one to demo but it was not the most reliable of beasts by all accounts.


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    #12
    LastStop
    Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭LastStop


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I thought Dublin Bus had some natural gas buses a few years ago. Maybe that was somewhere else.

    It may have been Bus Eireann

    Heard some of the older lads talk about them gas buses. A number of drivers passed out while driving them. If you can believe the stories.


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    #13
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,955 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Funding in the October Budget for more bus replacements next year and *still* no electric or hybrid rollout. Diesel is incredibly noisy, hot and polluting. It's 5 years out of date at this stage.

    AlekSmart, there are other metals you can use for the batteries not just lithium. And do you want me to explain the ecological problems of diesel? They are an order of magnitude worse. Unfortunately all you can really do is try to move technology to less polluting forms, there will still be localised pollution around the mines but the total pollution is greatly lessened.

    At this stage we should be moving to all-electric traction, hybrids are a bridge between those two technologies.

    As for cost - the internal combustion is a very mature technology at this stage so its cost is not ever coming down any further. The oil shocks of the 1970s was the last time the ICE saw any significant redesigns. On the other hand, electric vehicle technology is expensive but coming down in price very fast. They will fall below the cost of ICEs within the next 5 years so subsidies won't be needed. The maintenance cost looks even better - with very few moving parts there are far less failure points so the cost is minimal.

    The technology is changing fast as we are going through a period of disruption so ideas like "electric vehicles are expensive" are the case right now but won't be for long.


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    #14
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Funding in the October Budget for more bus replacements next year and *still* no electric or hybrid rollout. Diesel is incredibly noisy, hot and polluting. It's 5 years out of date at this stage.

    AlekSmart, there are other metals you can use for the batteries not just lithium. And do you want me to explain the ecological problems of diesel? They are an order of magnitude worse. Unfortunately all you can really do is try to move technology to less polluting forms, there will still be localised pollution around the mines but the total pollution is greatly lessened.

    At this stage we should be moving to all-electric traction, hybrids are a bridge between those two technologies.

    As for cost - the internal combustion is a very mature technology at this stage so its cost is not ever coming down any further. The oil shocks of the 1970s was the last time the ICE saw any significant redesigns. On the other hand, electric vehicle technology is expensive but coming down in price very fast. They will fall below the cost of ICEs within the next 5 years so subsidies won't be needed. The maintenance cost looks even better - with very few moving parts there are far less failure points so the cost is minimal.

    The technology is changing fast as we are going through a period of disruption so ideas like "electric vehicles are expensive" are the case right now but won't be for long.

    All sound and valid points,and not being argued by myself.

    However,the core issue remains,not Public Transport Operator policy,but Central Government committment to the issue.

    The various EU emission control systems,now at what is known as Euro VI level have strengthened and promoted Diesel Hybrid development and sales,however for a modern day Fleet Engineer specifying in a highly cost-conscious environment,the choice of straight diesel is easy...unless Governments or Regulatory Authorities directly subsidise those Electric or Hybrid alternatives,as in the U.K.

    For example,further roll-out of Londons zero-emission policy,is to a large extent dependent upon the construction of enough additional electric generation capability to charge c.9500 potentially fully electric buses.

    There remains also,the inconvienent issue of what that same Government policy facilitated in terms of Commuting patterns,with longer and more convoluted patterns becoming the norm as Dublins commuters were enticed to set up home in far away towns and villages.

    Our lack of an electrified Railway Network is one glaring example of a vast gap in Central Government's comprehension of what's desireable in matters Public Transport.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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