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Picard 1x10 - "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

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Comments

  • #122
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    Tom Hardy bulked up too much since Nemisis. And I thought he was a totally unconvincing Picard back then anyway.

    James McAvoy would be a much a better choice – and he did even, maybe jokingly, express an interest back when all this was just beginning. When Picard "died" in this episode and it started to become apparent they were going to give him a new body – I did allow myself just a moment of hope that he'd wake up as McAvoy for Season 2. That they gave him the same old broken down body again is more than a bit ridiculous tbh.


    Overall though – I did really enjoy this series! As a fan I liked seeing the old stuff again, and most of the new stuff was fine too. A much better show than Discovery, if we need to compare. Not perfect. Even disapointing in a few places. But I really enjoyed it.


  • #123
    Spear
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 25,035 CMod ✭✭✭✭Spear


    Minime2.5 wrote: »
    Id like to know where the Enterprise is or what became of it. Hasnt it.always been the flag.ship

    It's the Enterprise-F, an Odyssey class, under Captain Worf, according to the books accompanying the series.


  • #124
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Another thing the finale made me go "hmmm" about. Notwithstanding the superficial attempt at epic scale with the 100s of ships, I really wish Trek pulled more from the parallel storytelling of submarine warfare. Just have 2 ships, squaring off. Give them a sense of scale, heft and danger of one gets the drop on the other. But no, must have lasers explosions kabooooomm....


  • #125
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    TheValeyard wrote: »
    Well that's just because you cant please a certain percentage of Trek fans. Let's be honest Orville had some brilliant episodes dealing with controversial issues.






    It does and I really like it but the fawning over it as "real" Trek is wholly disingenuous, it would be ripped to **** by those same fans if it were official


  • #126
    Rawr
    Registered Users Posts: 3,740 ✭✭✭Rawr


    Spear wrote: »
    It's the Enterprise-F, an Odyssey class, under Captain Worf, according to the books accompanying the series.

    Damn! Where's that show?!! I'd love to watch a show about that.


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  • #127
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Evade


    Rawr wrote: »
    Damn! Where's that show?!! I'd love to watch a show about that.
    I wouldn't want to be a goldshirt on that ship.

    Ops Officer: Captain, there's a 99% chance we can rescue the away team and complete the mission.
    Worf: Hmm... *thinks back to Change of Heart* Too risky, procede with the mission. Add the away team's names to the weekly memorial.


  • #128
    Rawr
    Registered Users Posts: 3,740 ✭✭✭Rawr


    Evade wrote: »
    I wouldn't want to be a goldshirt on that ship.

    Ops Officer: Captain, there's a 99% chance we can rescue the away team and complete the mission.
    Worf: Hmm... *thinks back to Change of Heart* Too risky, procede with the mission. Add the away team's names to the weekly memorial.

    Crewman: Cpt Worf. The Terrelian Ship would like to signal their in intention to begin peace talks.

    Cpt. Worf: Prepare for Ramming Speed!

    Crewman: What?!!


  • #129
    AllForIt
    Registered Users Posts: 8,268 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Okay, my take.

    I loved the scene with Picard and Data.

    "A butterfly that lives forever is not a butterfly at all". Mortality vs immortality.

    Does anyone know the background song in that scene, it was beautiful. I don't know it.


    What I was disappointed about in the series is I thought from episode 1, Commodore Oh had the potential to be a great character and would play a more prominent role in the series. In the season finale all I got was her staring at the ships view screen with a single line.

    From the very beginning this series was about bringing Data back, they brought him back, but for such short a time. As good a final scene it was with Data, I would have preferred he played a role in series 2. Maybe Spiner doesn't want to.

    I really don't see where the series can go from here.


  • #130
    Rawr
    Registered Users Posts: 3,740 ✭✭✭Rawr


    AllForIt wrote: »

    What I was disappointed about in the series is I thought from episode 1, Commodore Oh had the potential to be a great character and would play a more prominent role in the series. In the season finale all I got was her staring at the ships view screen with a single line.

    Yea, that was a bit off. She was sort of just standing alone, suddenly in Romulan uniform and in a silly cartoon-villianess moment declares to the audience.
    "Now our (evil) plan will be completed!"

    All she was missing was the evil laugh.

    It really does feel like they missed a trick there. She would have spent so many years becoming a Starfleet Flag Officer, so why not have her head a Starfleet armada. Then we could have some moral conflict with some of the Starfleet folk not wanting to follow her orders and attack the planet. Captain Riker could have been the catalyst for that etc....

    Loads of potential, pissed away needlessly.


  • #131
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,198 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    I'm really shocked no Q at the end.

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



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  • #132
    Rawr
    Registered Users Posts: 3,740 ✭✭✭Rawr


    TheValeyard wrote: »
    I'm really shocked no Q at the end.

    I was surprised too. There were rumors that he'd turn up.
    After Picard dies and turns up in that lounge I got really excited. I fully expected Q to turn up and be all:

    Q: Jean-Luc! Mon Capt-i-tain...so here we are at last.

    Picard: Q! Are you somehow behind all of this?!

    Q: Behind what? The unravelling of your ever so limited mortal coil? Come now Jean-Luc, must you also blame me for the way your species leave this universe? I am hurt that you think this.

    Picard: So, I *am* dead?

    Q: If you wish to call that, then fine...you are "dead". Lets make it easy on your human sensibilities.

    (Doors open, with light beyond.)

    Picard: What is that?

    Q: Well....you were quite good that this "exploration" thing you enjoyed so much, with that bizarre attraction your species has to the "unknown".

    Picard: Where does that door lead to?

    Q: Ah.....what fun would it be if I simply told you? See you around Jean-Luc. (Snaps finger and disappears).

    Picard walks through door, and disappears. End credits...


  • #133
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,198 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Rawr wrote: »
    I was surprised too. There were rumors that he'd turn up.
    After Picard dies and turns up in that lounge I got really excited. I fully expected Q to turn up and be all:

    Q: Jean-Luc! Mon Capt-i-tain...so here we are at last.

    Picard: Q! Are you somehow behind all of this?!

    Q: Behind what? The unravelling of your ever so limited mortal coil? Come now Jean-Luc, must you also blame me for the way your species leave this universe? I am hurt that you think this.

    Picard: So, I *am* dead?

    Q: If you wish to call that, then fine...you are "dead". Lets make it easy on your human sensibilities.

    (Doors open, with light beyond.)

    Picard: What is that?

    Q: Well....you were quite good that this "exploration" thing you enjoyed so much, with that bizarre attraction your species has to the "unknown".

    Picard: Where does that door lead to?

    Q: Ah.....what fun would it be if I simply told you? See you around Jean-Luc. (Snaps finger and disappears).

    Picard walks through door, and disappears. End credits...

    I'd actually be happy with that ending. :)

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



  • #134
    FutureGuy
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 15,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭FutureGuy


    Spear wrote: »
    It's the Enterprise-F, an Odyssey class, under Captain Worf, according to the books accompanying the series.

    Correct me if I am wrong but he is captain of the E in that book?


  • #135
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    My bad points.

    I didn't like the Federation fleet. The ships were lumpy and duplicated far too much. I have read that there are in fact 4 distinct classes of ships visible on screen, but someone will have to do some forensic-level screen capping to verify that because you really can't tell. They need to hire a new designer, because none of the ship designs in Picard really worked.

    The fact that Oh spent most of the episode repeatedly asking her fleet of 200 ships to target one medium sized office building... and then being distracted each time... that was tiresome.

    "Target the build-" Space Flowers
    "Ok, now targe-" La Sirena
    "Ignore THAT and targ-" La Sirena x 1000
    "OK NOW JUST TAR-" Federation fleet
    "OH FOR F-" Contractual clause 5, subsection 2

    Just push the button Oh.

    Space Cersei. If she's actually dead, then this is a good thing. But she has a personal transporter, so maybe not. My hope is that with the Cube damaged and no Romulan ship in range, that she just went splat.

    "Acting" Captain Riker. Don't sell yourself short, Will. In front of the Romulans, just say "Captain".


  • #136
    Spear
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 25,035 CMod ✭✭✭✭Spear


    FutureGuy wrote: »
    Correct me if I am wrong but he is captain of the E in that book?

    No, you're correct, in the book Last, Best Hope he was made temporary first officer, then captain of the E after Picard left it to become an admiral.


  • #137
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,886 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Don't think the Enterprise-F gets a mention anywhere, not sure if it's considered canon. (Although the Odyssey class seems to have been made canon).


  • #138
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,198 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Well Eaglemoss will be pissed. Very few new ships for them to try and sell!

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



  • #139
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Evade


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    I didn't like the Federation fleet. The ships were lumpy and duplicated far too much. I have read that there are in fact 4 distinct classes of ships visible on screen, but someone will have to do some forensic-level screen capping to verify that because you really can't tell. They need to hire a new designer, because none of the ship designs in Picard really worked.
    A lot of the CG in Picard seemed lazy. All the transporter effects were the same, they didn't even bother to slap a colour filter over them for the different races' transporters.


  • #140
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Evade


    TheValeyard wrote: »
    Well Eaglemoss will be pissed. Very few new ships for them to try and sell!
    Or happy because they can sell the same model four times.


  • #141
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Rawr wrote: »
    Also, were those robot claws the same ones we saw briefly in Discovery? Are the big bad super-robots some how connected with Control? Not sure I like that idea :(

    The writers have said no. Which doesn't prevent future writers trying to create a link, but that wasn't the intention. The intention was to echo Lovecraftian cosmic horror, which was the first thing that came to my mind when I saw that bit.
    FGR wrote: »
    They could have also put Riker on the bridge of a re-dressed Discovery too..would have been better than what we did see.

    Pretty sure that's exactly what they did. Bridge redress, a fine Star Trek tradition.
    FGR wrote: »
    Agreed! Jurati still openly chose to kill Maddox and, judging from what had been said, would still be guilty of a crime perhaps by loss of reason/insanity of the like. That can't be tolerated especially by Picard; a man who believes you should face consequences for your actions.

    Someone asked Chabon about that, he says the intention is for that to be picked up in Season 2. The fleet left before Jurati could turn herself in, and she has said she will do it, so that's yet to come.
    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Speaking of Riker, you'd think he'd have wanted to be there at the death of his friend and mentor, but sure no worries. It's better Picard died among virtual strangers I'm sure. :rolleyes:

    Riker doesn't know Picard is about to die. After he signs off, Jurati gives Picard a look that says "You didn't tell him".

    Also, people complaining that Narek just disappeared... do we really need a wrap-up scene to know he'll be back? Something was cut, I think, but we didn't need it because Narek will be back.


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  • #142
    Greyjoy
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Greyjoy


    Rawr wrote: »
    It really does feel like they missed a trick there. She would have spent so many years becoming a Starfleet Flag Officer, so why not have her head a Starfleet armada. Then we could have some moral conflict with some of the Starfleet folk not wanting to follow her orders and attack the planet. Captain Riker could have been the catalyst for that etc....

    Loads of potential, pissed away needlessly.

    It made no sense that the Romulans would needlessly expose an agent that managed to infiltrate the highest level of Starfleet just to stand around like a cartoon villain. Oh leading the Federation fleet would have made for a better confrontation having Starfleet wrestle with its own conscience. But maybe that would have been too reminiscent of the end of Captain America : Winter Soldier?


  • #143
    Greyjoy
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Greyjoy


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Pretty sure that's exactly what they did. Bridge redress, a fine Star Trek tradition.


    Someone asked Chabon about that, he says the intention is for that to be picked up in Season 2. The fleet left before Jurati could turn herself in, and she has said she will do it, so that's yet to come.

    A bridge redress would have worked better but what we got was basically Frakes sitting in front of a green screen.

    The idea that the Federation fleet didn't even hang around long enough for Jurati to hand herself over is some of the biggest load of horsesh*t this entire season. They discover a planet of synths and don't even leave a couple of ships in orbit to open diplomatic relations or even establish a defensive perimeter in case the Romulans decide to return with a larger fleet??


  • #144
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    The good:

    The themes of death and love are brought to a nice conclusion. Unlike others, I liked that Picard's decision on death was different to Data's. Data was ready, and though he could have chosen to "live" forever it was never going to be the human life he had always wished for. Only death could give him that. For Picard, death was inevitable (and still is) but given the choice, when that door opened, he walked through it to hold on to whatever piece of life he could still have.

    It seems obvious that season 2 will explore what it means to return from death in this way. Does Picard consider himself to be the "real" Picard? Do others? This another opportunity to explore humanity, which is what Star Trek has always really been about. That's a good set up.

    Data's first scene with Picard, Data unable to express love for Picard. This was fully correct, and it didn't matter to Picard. Data sacrificed his life for him, what more could an android do?

    Narek's scene with Narissa. He gave you a chance, Space Cersei. He just wanted you to see him. You blew it.

    Data's final scene, listening to his daughter sing his favorite song, aging and fading like the human he always wanted to be.

    The crew of La Sirena have built into a nice family unit, but there's plenty of room for conflict and complication to fuel future drama.

    Tentacled horrors from the beyond always make me smile.


  • #145
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    The good:

    The themes of death and love are brought to a nice conclusion. Unlike others, I liked that Picard's decision on death was different to Data's. Data was ready, and though he could have chosen to "live" forever it was never going to be the human life he had always wished for. Only death could give him that. For Picard, death was inevitable (and still is) but given the choice, when that door opened, he walked through it to hold on to whatever piece of life he could still have.

    It seems obvious that season 2 will explore what it means to return from death in this way. Does Picard consider himself to be the "real" Picard? Do others? This another opportunity to explore humanity, which is what Star Trek has always really been about. That's a good set up.

    I don't share your optimism: on balance I've enjoyed this series, which is why the finale's shítting of the bed has disappointed & annoyed me so much. In regards the "death", I don't think they're going to do anything with it, because we've been here before. I've tried to avoid cribbing on Alex Kurtzman as it's reductionist, but it feels like Kurtzman has pulled the same stunt as he did with "Star Trek Into Darkness". Namely: killing a character for a cheap emotional shock, only to undo it a scene or so later. While the details were different Picard's "death" played out exactly the same as Kirk's own in that abomination of a movie. Same attempt to play for emotion without earning it, though at least Picard wasn't trying to be clever in Darkness' blatant riffing on Wrath of Khan.


  • #146
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    pixelburp wrote: »
    I don't share your optimism: on balance I've enjoyed this series, which is why the finale's shítting of the bed has disappointed & annoyed me so much. In regards the "death", I don't think they're going to do anything with it, because we've been here before.

    The writers/producers indicated on an AMA a few days ago that they intend for it to be a theme in S2. Maybe it won't happen, but it's clear they don't mean for Picard's return to be a get out of jail free card. Else they would just have had the androids simply "heal" Picard using something akin to the positronic matrix therapy that would have saved Thad Riker.
    pixelburp wrote: »
    I've tried to avoid cribbing on Alex Kurtzman as it's reductionist, but it feels like Kurtzman has pulled the same stunt as he did with "Star Trek Into Darkness". Namely: killing a character for a cheap emotional shock, only to undo it a scene or so later. While the details were different Picard's "death" played out exactly the same as Kirk's own in that abomination of a movie. Same attempt to play for emotion without earning it, though at least Picard wasn't trying to be clever in Darkness' blatant riffing on Wrath of Khan.

    That film made me so annoyed, but Picard's return is nothing like that. And if they're smart, the writers will explore the consequences of it in season 2.

    Mind you, they could have written in consequences for Kirk's resurrection too, if they wanted to, but instead they made it a cheap fix. The mirroring of TWOK made my blood boil. I don't want to think about that movie anymore.


  • #147
    pah
    Registered Users Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭pah


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    And if they're smart, the writers will explore the consequences of it in season 2.

    Nothing I have seen so far in season 1 would support the argument that the writers are smart


  • #148
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    pah wrote: »
    Nothing I have seen so far in season 1 would support the argument that the writers are smart

    Nothing redeeming in the 10 episodes? Why'd you put yourself through that? It's going to be a subjective evaluation I guess, but I can never understand why someone would sit through 10 hours of something before deciding not only that they merely don't like it, but that it sucks.

    I think there have been plenty of brilliant writing moments, but plenty of clumsy ones. Uneven, but certainly showing plenty of evidence that the writers are smart.

    In their handling of the theme of mortality and the meaning of being human, they've done well in my view. The fleshing out of the La Sirena crew, really nicely done. I like them all, I want to see them do more. The Riker family were great. The writers killed people and put others through transformative experiences- that seems to enrage some fans, but the temptation to give the fans something safe and low-stakes would have been strong.

    But then you have Oh and Narissa and some really clunky exposition scenes. The Federation fleet in this episode- that was a hugely anticipated moment and they blew it.

    But Narissa in particular. Yeesh. Mind you, if you put Narissa into a scene with Sela, shot it all TNG style and transmitted it back to 1993, it'd probably work just fine. We've just moved on from whatever it is they were trying to do there.

    Some of the worst parts of the last episode weren't exactly writing issues either. Narek's fate was filmed and cut. Ditto Ramdha and the XBs. The Federation fleet was just as disappointing for how it looked as how they interacted with the story.


  • #149
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    The writers/producers indicated on an AMA a few days ago that they intend for it to be a theme in S2. Maybe it won't happen, but it's clear they don't mean for Picard's return to be a get out of jail free card. Else they would just have had the androids simply "heal" Picard using something akin to the positronic matrix therapy that would have saved Thad Riker.

    If they've addressed it as something they want to explore, then that's cool they don't intend pretending it never happened. I still think it was an awful decision, both narratively and conceptually, but if the production team is honestly going to explore it more, cool.


  • #150
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    pixelburp wrote: »
    If they've addressed it as something they want to explore, then that's cool they don't intend pretending it never happened. I still think it was an awful decision, both narratively and conceptually, but if the production team is honestly going to explore it more, cool.

    I think they can't avoid it. I mean, they must have known that even some of the fans would have qualms about whether Golem Picard is the "real" Picard.


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  • #151
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Evade


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Some of the worst parts of the last episode weren't exactly writing issues either. Narek's fate was filmed and cut. Ditto Ramdha and the XBs. The Federation fleet was just as disappointing for how it looked as how they interacted with the story.
    I'm a bit skeptical of this as an excuse. There's almost certainly a couple of scenes they could have moved to part one to make room for these resolution scenes in part two.


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