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Call for reform of motor tax system

2

Comments

  • #32
    Superfoods
    Closed Accounts Posts: 322 ✭✭Superfoods


    liamog wrote: »
    It's a pretty standard policy move in the anti EV playbook. The Irish Car Carbon Reduction Alliance is an industry group set up to delay the transition to EV as it reduces servicing revenue.


    Looks like Colm took a few quid to stick his name on a doc which already had the answer before the start

    “And there will not be a whole heap of EVs [electric vehicles] on Irish roads for a least a few years,” he added. The capacity to meet a one million EV target was simply not there, and there were not enough plants yet to generate batteries for EVs.


  • #33
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    This idea seems to crop up every few months.

    A circular discussion takes place and we end up precisely nowhere.


  • #34
    Duckjob
    Registered Users Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    Superfoods wrote: »
    At the cost of million......


    They're a drop in the ocean compared to other road infrastructure.

    Very worthwhile spend IMO if it closes off estates to rat runs and makes them more pleasant places for people to live.


  • #35
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    Duckjob wrote: »
    They're a drop in the ocean compared to other road infrastructure.

    Very worthwhile spend IMO if it closes off estates to rat runs and makes them more pleasant places for people to live.


    They're currently a drop in the ocean because so few of them exist.


    Retrofit them to non-motorway roads and housing estates across the Greater Dublin Area and watch that cost soar.


    In fact the planning stage alone would be complex, expensive, drawn-out and subject to enormous amounts of appeals. One person's rat-run is another's route to essential services.



    Some sort of grant available to local authorities to install such measures in specific estates where the problem is identified or reported by residents may work, slowly and over-time. But an overall implementation in a short period of time to prevent people from avoiding tolled roads is unrealistic.


  • #36
    uncle-mofo
    Registered Users Posts: 259 ✭✭uncle-mofo


    Rodney Bathgate wrote: »
    Make cyclists pay the road tax.

    Why would a cyclist pay motor tax?


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  • #37
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Superfoods wrote: »
    Looks like Colm took a few quid to stick his name on a doc which already had the answer before the start

    “And there will not be a whole heap of EVs [electric vehicles] on Irish roads for a least a few years,” he added. The capacity to meet a one million EV target was simply not there, and there were not enough plants yet to generate batteries for EVs.

    The study was funded by the "Irish Car Carbon Reduction Alliance" a group of Irish dealers that are bearish on EV takeup, and are trying to delay the transition to 2040. Personally, I think Ireland isn't big enough to make an iota of difference, cars will be switched over to zero emissions in line with whatever happens in the UK market.


  • #38
    kaahooters
    Registered Users Posts: 642 ✭✭✭kaahooters


    uncle-mofo wrote: »
    Why would a cyclist pay motor tax?

    just change the name to road tax and charge 800 per ev and 50 a year for cyclisits, keeping the current system in place untill ice vechiles are gone.


  • #39
    duffman3833
    Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭duffman3833


    tax on fuel would be more straight forward that what was suggested in article. The more you travel the more it will cost.
    That will mean however that big old luxobarges will become more affordable as they wouldn be hit with an 1800 tax bill before leaving the driveway and will increase in value big time.

    A standard motor tax charge should be implemented, say 150 and the rest of tax is gathered on fuel sales. If they want to get EV's to take off, zero road tax for them but small tax on electricity.


  • #40
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    Easiest way would be to congestion charge to cross the canals in Dublin during the morning rush , the reduction in car volume would stop the need for bus connects and save a billion and make a billion at the same time.


  • #41
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,315 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    It will go to a GPS tracked km driven model over the next 10 years ir do.


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  • #42
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    It will go to a GPS tracked km driven model over the next 10 years ir do.

    Cannot see that going down well in rural areas.


  • #43
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Chiparus wrote: »
    Easiest way would be to congestion charge to cross the canals in Dublin during the morning rush , the reduction in car volume would stop the need for bus connects and save a billion and make a billion at the same time.

    Why pick the canals as your boundary point?


  • #44
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    Chiparus wrote: »
    Easiest way would be to congestion charge to cross the canals in Dublin during the morning rush , the reduction in car volume would stop the need for bus connects and save a billion and make a billion at the same time.

    I strongly suspect driving into Dublin City Centre only makes sense for many because they get free or subsidised parking as part of their employment in the public sector.
    Taxpayer subsidised single occupant car journeys into Dublin City Centre at rush hour is madness and any government serious about tackling congestion would review it.

    Obviously for essential service shift workers who cannot get public transport at the times they start and finish work such parking should be provided. But as it as they often go without, eg St James Hospital staff, while many working 9-5 in public sector offices in Dublin City Centre continue to get it. The Gardai simply deal with the problem by parking illegally in front of all their stations, which is necessary but sub-optimal.


  • #45
    Horseshoe600
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭Horseshoe600


    The underlying point of McCarthys article is the state is currently highly dependent on tax income from motorists. As more and more people switch to EV over the coming years the tax income from VRT, excise on fuel, motor tax, VAT etc will fall off a cliff.

    This will blow a hole in the state's income and will lead to some future government coming up with new and creative ways to tax motorists by some other means.

    Ultimately people switching to EV over the coming years to save money may find that they'll be getting taxed on usage or tolls or charges or by some other means.


  • #46
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users Posts: 81,110 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    Allowing alternating number plates in to the city would in theory cut traffic by near 50%, even reg one day odd the next.


  • #47
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    duffman3833 wrote: »
    tax on fuel would be more straight forward that what was suggested in article. The more you travel the more it will cost.
    That will mean however that big old luxobarges will become more affordable as they wouldn be hit with an 1800 tax bill before leaving the driveway and will increase in value big time.

    A standard motor tax charge should be implemented, say 150 and the rest of tax is gathered on fuel sales. If they want to get EV's to take off, zero road tax for them but small tax on electricity.

    That's one of the several reasons that such a change will never happen. The Green's just wouldn't have it.

    EV's are on the up sales wise and based on the very realistic assumption that an overall drop in revenue form the motoring sector won't be allowed happen that area is the obvious one for additional taxation.


  • #48
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    The fuel guzzling 'luxobarge' is outdated and on the way out, not that many on the road or being produced so they won't really have much effect overall. Policy won't be determined by them.


  • #49
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    Still plenty of bigger engined vehicles about, and more are being sold new too. They won't be getting cheaper road tax - it simply won't happen.

    Any move towards adding motor tax to the price of fuel will be rightly seen as pro urban and anti rural.

    Another compelling reason not to entertain such a notion.


  • #50
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Still plenty of bigger engined vehicles about, and more are being sold new too. They won't be getting cheaper road tax - it simply won't happen.

    Any move towards adding motor tax to the price of fuel will be rightly seen as pro urban and anti rural.

    Another compelling reason not to entertain such a notion.


    There are some big engined vehicles out there but the newer ones are very fuel efficient like a 3.5 litre merc diesel doing 60mpg. Current tax is only 180!


  • #51
    Duckjob
    Registered Users Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    Rodney Bathgate wrote: »
    Make cyclists pay the road tax.
    kaahooters wrote: »
    just change the name to road tax and charge 800 per ev and 50 a year for cyclisits, keeping the current system in place untill ice vechiles are gone.

    No problem with paying €50 for a bike as long as the taxes are kept in fair proportion according to the main factors like road wear caused.

    https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/

    Fancy an annual tax of €833,333 to drive ? Didn't think so. Away with your nonsense.


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  • #52
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    Why pick the canals as your boundary point?

    Because it is the easiest points to control,

    There is a congestion charge on the Port tunnel that works very well.


  • #53
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    CrankyHaus wrote: »
    I strongly suspect driving into Dublin City Centre only makes sense for many because they get free or subsidised parking as part of their employment in the public sector.
    Taxpayer subsidised single occupant car journeys into Dublin City Centre at rush hour is madness and any government serious about tackling congestion would review it.

    Obviously for essential service shift workers who cannot get public transport at the times they start and finish work such parking should be provided. But as it as they often go without, eg St James Hospital staff, while many working 9-5 in public sector offices in Dublin City Centre continue to get it. The Gardai simply deal with the problem by parking illegally in front of all their stations, which is necessary but sub-optimal.

    Does not happen in other police forces, make the guards take public transport like everyone else.


  • #54
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Chiparus wrote: »
    Because it is the easiest points to control,

    There is a congestion charge on the Port tunnel that works very well.

    Not really when a high volume of traffic from N4 and N3 don't touch touch them. Theirs a lot of residences within it, such as inchicore And the city limits are beyond them. The canals seems like a rather odd choice.


  • #55
    mikeecho
    Registered Users Posts: 5,038 ✭✭✭mikeecho


    I can see motor tax based on Kw for EVs coming down the line.

    The state needs money, and motoring is an easy touch, not just here, but globally.

    We don't have, not can we afford the anpr network to enforce any distance based tolling nationwide. The cheapest option is to keep selling circular discs for your windscreen, and charge every vehicle a few hundred euro, no matter what fuel source they consume.


  • #56
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    Not really when a high volume of traffic from N4 and N3 don't touch touch them. Theirs a lot of residences within it, such as inchicore And the city limits are beyond them. The canals seems like a rather odd choice.

    Just do it at peak times to cross the canals driving into town say 8am to 9 am, residents such as in inchicore and portabello may apply for passes although cannot see them needing to cross the canal to go into town- in London residents within the charging zone recieve 90% discount.

    https://www.visitlondon.com/traveller-information/getting-around-london/congestion-charge

    As for the N3,N4 , the charge can be applied at the appropriate artery for those roads, eg Con Colbert.


  • #57
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,755 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    It will go to a GPS tracked km driven model over the next 10 years ir do.

    Not a hope.

    Who's going to -pay- to fit GPS to all my 20yr old ICEs?

    And the data charges?

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #58
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,755 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    uncle-mofo wrote: »
    Why would a cyclist pay motor tax?

    For Solidarity, brother :)

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #59
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    galwaytt wrote: »
    For Solidarity, brother :)


    Electric bikes. On the electricity!


  • #60
    PaulKK
    Registered Users Posts: 2,279 ✭✭✭PaulKK


    Why not just simplify the system and have 2 tax rates for all cars be they electric or ICE based on weight or something. E.g. <= 1500kg 250 per year and > 1500 kg 400 a year.

    It's my understanding that most cars from the past 10 years on the road are in the lowest tax bands A/B, i.e roughly 200 per year anyway.

    We were all paying out 350 on 1.4 golfs 15 years ago so I don't think it's unreasonable to just flatten the rates for all cars.

    The vrt rate by CO2 could be retained to incentise buying a lower emission car in the first place.


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  • #61
    mikeecho
    Registered Users Posts: 5,038 ✭✭✭mikeecho


    The old cc based system wasn't all that bad.

    Well up to a 2l which was €710. (I regularly paid 710)

    Anything over 2000cc and the government lost the plot.

    https://www.motortax.ie/OMT/motortaxinfotype.do

    I think if they were fairer with the 2000cc+ rates we could go back to that.

    But I think they'll go with a bhp/Kw based motor tax system for EVs.
    It doesn't have to be a fair system .
    It's just a system for generating revenue.
    After all . It's a tax.

    Taxing on useage isn't feasible, the infrastructure needed will never exist here. People talk about zones, they talk about the m50, the canals as boundary markers.

    What about the rest of the country ?
    .


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