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Penalty points in road works area

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  • 25-06-2020 12:57am
    #1
    gozzers08
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭


    Hi all, picked up some penalty points in Kilmacanogue, fine with it but irked also as it’s the zone that goes to 60kph due to road works. The road works were not active due to covid-19. Any thoughts on whether reduced speed limits must apply despite the reason for them being absent? Thanks.


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    #2
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,630 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    If the temporary speed limit order was still valid, they still apply.


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    #3
    AaronDJ
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭AaronDJ


    heading south. where does the 60km zone end? at the flyover where it would normally go back to 100kmh or further south?


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    #4
    manlad
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭manlad


    Got caught by this last week in this zone, 66km p/h in a 60km road works zone, the kicker is the reduced speed signage wasn't even there before we approached the van but after the van as I went back and checked. I'm not bothered spending a day in court to challenge buts its extremely frustrating.


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    #5
    RebelButtMunch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,378 ✭✭✭RebelButtMunch


    Plenty of signage and advance notice on that road.


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    #6
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Signs are everywhere including a light up sign specifically stating speed vans.
    Garda do be there too in car.


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    #7
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,796 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    manlad wrote: »
    Got caught by this last week in this zone, 66km p/h in a 60km road works zone, the kicker is the reduced speed signage wasn't even there before we approached the van but after the van as I went back and checked. I'm not bothered spending a day in court to challenge buts its extremely frustrating.

    They're trying to do you for 10% over? Tell them to **** off.

    I've raised questions about equipment calibration in a couple of similar situations in my time, especially in busy traffic, and both were cancelled. Neither the Guards nor the speed camera contractor wants to waste time and money up in front of a judge explaining why they haven't used discretion in a 10% over scenario.

    It was my brother in law in the Garda Traffic Corps at the time who told me to contest it and that he would never book someone for 10% over as it wouldn't be worth the hassle for all concerned.


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    #8
    Kingp35
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,246 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kingp35


    I would definitely contest it. The Garda probably won't even show up and it will be automatically struck out.


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    #9
    AaronDJ
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭AaronDJ


    manlad wrote: »
    Got caught by this last week in this zone, 66km p/h in a 60km road works zone, the kicker is the reduced speed signage wasn't even there before we approached the van but after the van as I went back and checked. I'm not bothered spending a day in court to challenge buts its extremely frustrating.

    Which road works were you caught in, the ones in Kilmacanogue or the ones before kilmacanogue? the signs are well done in Kilmacanogue but the ones for the temporary resurfacing before kilmac were a bit odd alright.


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    #10
    manlad
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭manlad


    AaronDJ wrote: »
    Which road works were you caught in, the ones in Kilmacanogue or the ones before kilmacanogue? the signs are well done in Kilmacanogue but the ones for the temporary resurfacing before kilmac were a bit odd alright.

    Just before Kilmacanogue. My wife was with me, she didn't notice them either. All traffic was moving at a similar pace, I was been overtaken by cars in the fast lane most of the time.


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    #11
    AaronDJ
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭AaronDJ


    When you say just before Kilmacanogue, Do you mean a few junctions before it on M11 Southbound where the speed limit should be 120kmh but was reduced to 80 then 60km for road resurfacing. Then back to 120. Or Do you mean just before Kilmacanogue as on the N11 just around the corner from roadworks through the middle of Kimacanogue ?


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    #12
    manlad
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭manlad


    I don't recall specific works but the speed limit returned to 120km p/h after 200m later which was the most frustrating part.


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    #13
    AaronDJ
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭AaronDJ


    manlad wrote: »
    I don't recall specific works but the speed limit returned to 120km p/h after 200m later which was the most frustrating part.

    Very annoying. I was past those road works Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of last week. Monday tuesdays signs were there and wednesday they were gone from southbound and had moved to the northbound side. what date where you caught?


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    #14
    manlad
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭manlad


    AaronDJ wrote: »
    Very annoying. I was past those road works Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of last week. Monday tuesdays signs were there and wednesday they were gone from southbound and had moved to the northbound side. what date where you caught?

    31st of August. I've paid the fine, not worth challenging i.e day in court, there were clearly road works albeit bad signage around speed limits. I will say it doesn't make sense that I get the same fine and points for driving 66km p/h than someone driving 120km p/h in the same scenario.


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    #15
    TheFactMan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 98 ✭✭TheFactMan


    gozzers08 wrote: »
    Hi all, picked up some penalty points in Kilmacanogue, fine with it but irked also as it’s the zone that goes to 60kph due to road works. The road works were not active due to covid-19. Any thoughts on whether reduced speed limits must apply despite the reason for them being absent? Thanks.

    Nah you ll be fine if you go to court with it, it will be thrown out happened me, surprisingly the judges do show common sense and aren't as black and white as people on here would have you believe.


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    #16
    AaronDJ
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭AaronDJ


    manlad wrote: »
    31st of August. I've paid the fine, not worth challenging i.e day in court, there were clearly road works albeit bad signage around speed limits. I will say it doesn't make sense that I get the same fine and points for driving 66km p/h than someone driving 120km p/h in the same scenario.

    I passed on 31st Aug about 8.30am... signs were badly laid out. what time did you get caught at?


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    #17
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,243 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    The details if anyone is wondering.

    https://www.speedlimits.ie/roadworks-speed-limit-orders
    WICKLOW COUNTY COUNCIL

    Road - M11/N11 (between Junction 7 - Bray South and Junction 8 - Kilmacanogue)

    Speed Limit in Force - 60 km/h

    Duration - From 17th February 2020 to 1st February 2021


    Full Notice:

    Road works on the M11/N11 between junction 7 and 8 (Bray South to Kilmacanogue) are due to commence.

    Notice is hereby given that in exercise of the powers vested under Section 10 of the Road Traffic Act, 2004, and in the interest of safety, it is necessary to make a Road Works Speed Limit Order, in respect of the area where the works are to be carried out.

    Subject to the Road Works Speed Limit Order No. 1 of 2020, 60 km/h per hour shall be the Road Works Speed Limit for mechanically propelled vehicles on the roads as specified in the First Schedule hereto, this Special Speed Limit to apply from Monday 17th February 2020 until the 1st February 2021, or such earlier date as may be determined by Wicklow County Council.


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    #18
    AaronDJ
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭AaronDJ


    Victor wrote: »
    The details if anyone is wondering.

    https://www.speedlimits.ie/roadworks-speed-limit-orders

    I presume the speed limit signs have to be up for the 60km limit to be enforced?


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    #19
    Pinoy adventure
    Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭Pinoy adventure


    Sucker


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    #20
    Pythagorean
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭Pythagorean


    The thing to remember here is that the law is an ass. It has no powers of discretion, or ability to judge the intricacies of a situation. That's the role of judges.


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    #21
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,243 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    AaronDJ wrote: »
    I presume the speed limit signs have to be up for the 60km limit to be enforced?

    No. The bye-laws and the Road Works Speed Limit Order are the law. The signs are just a notification of the law.


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    #22
    artanevilla
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,260 Mod ✭✭✭✭artanevilla


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    They're trying to do you for 10% over? Tell them to **** off.

    I've raised questions about equipment calibration in a couple of similar situations in my time, especially in busy traffic, and both were cancelled. Neither the Guards nor the speed camera contractor wants to waste time and money up in front of a judge explaining why they haven't used discretion in a 10% over scenario.

    It was my brother in law in the Garda Traffic Corps at the time who told me to contest it and that he would never book someone for 10% over as it wouldn't be worth the hassle for all concerned.

    Really it's irrelevant wether the equipment is calibrated or not, its submitted as evidence and it's up to the judge to decide on that evidence. The case won't be dismissed due to equipment not being calibrated.

    For example a Garda can say in court he witnessed you speeding without any equipment to back it up, oral testimony is evidence, it's your word against theirs.

    The calibration thing is something that's going around for years, it's not something that gets you out of a speeding ticket.

    Same applies for the 10%, the law is the law, 1% over is speeding and you can be prosecuted.


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    #23
    AaronDJ
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭AaronDJ


    Victor wrote: »
    No. The bye-laws and the Road Works Speed Limit Order are the law. The signs are just a notification of the law.


    Hmmm. very strange tho if you pass a 120km/h speed sign into a road that has a bye-law passed and is now 60kmh zone that you could be done even if there are no signs. if you werent local you likely wouldn't know about a bye-law for road works... that m50/m11/n11 is a disaster for speed limits changing


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    #24
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,243 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    AaronDJ wrote: »
    Hmmm. very strange tho if you pass a 120km/h speed sign into a road that has a bye-law passed and is now 60kmh zone that you could be done even if there are no signs. if you werent local you likely wouldn't know about a bye-law for road works... that m50/m11/n11 is a disaster for speed limits changing
    The flip side is that people would just steal signs / put up their own.


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    #25
    AaronDJ
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭AaronDJ


    Victor wrote: »
    The flip side is that people would just steal signs / put up their own.

    well yes... but if you are on the M11 you could expect it to be 120kmh unless sign posted other wise. i also thought go safe van operators are to check speed signs and insure they are viable and readable etc. not sure where I read that though.... then again as a previous poster rightly says. the law has no judgement. that what judges are for


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    #26
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,243 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    AaronDJ wrote: »
    well yes... but if you are on the M11 you could expect it to be 120kmh
    We are talking about the N11, that normally has a 100km/h speed limit.


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    #27
    AaronDJ
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭AaronDJ


    Victor wrote: »
    We are talking about the N11, that normally has a 100km/h speed limit.

    well not entirely. Manlad was caught slightly further back at the road works on M11. and the speed dropped from 120.. down to 80 and then down to 60... then back up 120... then becomes N11 and drops to 100kmh.

    I had misresd the maps you linked and thought they were for the road works before kilmac. But the sign posts on M11 disappeared over night as I drove along one day trying to remember where the road works were and next thing I was in kilmac. then on way home they have appeared on the northbound side.


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