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How to fix antisocial areas

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    #122
    riclad
    Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    most council house,s were sold to tenants after 1990 ,
    95 per cent of tenants opted to buy the house,s.
    Some people still rent ,like old age pensioners ,people on disability allowace,
    some people who could not afford the house.
    Most of the dublin city council units are apartment blocks
    ,not 3 bed house,s .
    Those blocks mostly have security camera.s which can be monitored by the
    gardai 24/7 .
    When people own their own house they tend to be quiet,responsible
    and not cause trouble for anyone especially their neighbours.
    The main problem in dublin is high rent,s ,a homeless crisis
    and drug dealing.
    Anyone who wants drugs can buy them .
    the gardai dont have the resource,s or the staff to clamp down on drug dealers .
    My friend lives in an old council estate.
    i can see no evidence of anti social behavior when i go there .
    some people think 5 teens sitting on a wall talking is anti social behavior.
    i,m not saying theres no anti social behavior anywhere .
    I think theres maybe people post on this forum who may have been
    in a council estate a few times or maybe 5 years ago.
    So they think every council estate is a war zone or an awful place to live


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    #123
    Pronto63
    Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭Pronto63


    bubblypop wrote: »
    This is definitely not true!!

    That’s true. I’ll correct myself:
    Workers are LESS likely to have feral kids running amok!


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    #124
    Pronto63
    Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭Pronto63


    Lc2020 wrote: »
    Brilliant, it's funny how everyone is trying to distance themselves from an issue that their son/daughter may very well be implicit in. Did you ever just stop and think for a second that maybe you're part of the problem. Or does that not fit with your narrative. The classism here is quite concerning really

    I’m not part of the problem - whatever you mean by that?

    As for classism! I wasn’t born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I grew up in the inner city, a corpo flat to be precise.


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    #125
    BanditLuke
    Registered Users Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭BanditLuke


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    There is no proof that works.

    It's just something liberals happen to like

    It works in the very area I live in so you are wrong.


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    #126
    Pronto63
    Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭Pronto63


    mcgragger wrote: »
    If we had a decent police force with police that were properly trained, conditioned and managed then that's a start. Aslo a functioning courts system where people that appear there multiple times are put in jail. How many times do you read about criminals with loads of convictions?
    The problem with this country is we have a system that doesn't scare the criminals at all and they'd probably outrun the majority of the unfit police in the Gardai anyway.

    I think the problem is the courts / prisons to be honest and not the Guards.

    It must be very demoralising to bring Johnny Scumbag, who has 20 or 30 previous convictions, to court only to see him get a slap on the wrist.

    I’d be all in favour for a system of rehabilitation for the first couple of convictions but after 3 or 5 convictions there should be no concurrent sentences.

    This would mean providing extra prison spaces. Money well spent!

    I’d also build the new prisons in someplace like Longford or Leitrim. Well paid jobs where there isn’t much industry.


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    #127
    Pronto63
    Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭Pronto63


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    No we don't. We need the prison spaces but we need to vastly increase the standards in prison to give people an education and rehabilitate. We need massive investment in youth offenders institutions and more custodial sentences to give the poor bastards a chance - leaving them with their waster parents isn't helping.

    I agree but when we’re talking 20+ convictions the time for rehabilitation is over


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    #128
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    No we don't. We need the prison spaces but we need to vastly increase the standards in prison to give people an education and rehabilitate. We need massive investment in youth offenders institutions and more custodial sentences to give the poor bastards a chance - leaving them with their waster parents isn't helping.

    You have zero knowledge of the systems in place.

    They have better faculties than many private estates. They have all the courses under the sun and youth offenders don't go to prison anymore, they go to secure boarding school.

    Your attitude is why they get away with an entire life of crime


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    #129
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    BanditLuke wrote: »
    It works in the very area I live in so you are wrong.

    That's not unequivocal proof, the policy of having a minimum 10% social housing in new estates stems from nothing bar left wing ideology


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    #130
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    You have zero knowledge of the systems in place.

    They have better faculties than many private estates. They have all the courses under the sun and youth offenders don't go to prison anymore, they go to secure boarding school.

    Your attitude is why they get away with an entire life of crime


    You've zero knowledge of what actually happens. Our prisons and youth offending institutions are hell holes. In most cases they get a diversion rather than a custodial sentence.


    Your attitude is why we're not rehabilitating and have an issue with recidivism.


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    #131
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Pronto63 wrote: »
    I agree but when we’re talking 20+ convictions the time for rehabilitation is over


    We should be never getting to that stage. Where we do I agree with a long custodial sentence, but one where there are options for the person to reform if they don't take them, and re-offend upon release - another long sentence should be imposed.


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    #132
    ...Ghost...
    Registered Users Posts: 3,266 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    America has the highest incarceration rate in the world. How is it working out for them?

    You put a person in jail, give them a criminal record, you take away their options.

    Just a random thought, but maybe only certain categories of convictions should be reported to prospective employers and much like penalty points, have an expiry period.

    On a related note, I can never understand why an insurance company asks if I have EVER been convicted of a "NON-MOTORING" offense! If I had been, it's none of their feckin business if I threw a bucket of paint on the neighbours dog when I was 10.....(dramatisation, may not have happened).

    Stay Free



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    #133
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    listermint wrote: »
    Some of the answers so far on the thread are ......Prison time and sentences.... I mean
    .

    The only way to stop antisocial is to get kids at a young age to have pride in their area. Like the age of 5 through to 10.

    Watched a program on channel 4 recently one of those home renovation ones and they guy doing the house was doing it all himself. He was a local guy and very much involved in the area.

    One thing that struck me was he was showing the camera crew around the locality it was a heavily social housing area in the UK and he showed them a roundabout and it's roads leading off it . That he had built some 17 years previously. But there was blocks on it with the names of all the school kids on the roundabout. He had the kids help him in conjunction with the school.

    The roundabout was immaculate and the roads off it. He also bumped into a your twenty something walking by pushing a pram and randomly said oh my name's on that roundabout . She was on the way to the shop and said she has great respect for the local guy.


    You need to change mindsets. It's hearts and minds. Oppression never works.

    I know lots of places with the names are on there. Walls , private property trees etc.. the issue is woth the current adults that are committing anti social behaviour.. how do you stop it


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    #134
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    You've zero knowledge of what actually happens. Our prisons and youth offending institutions are hell holes. In most cases they get a diversion rather than a custodial sentence.


    Your attitude is why we're not rehabilitating and have an issue with recidivism.

    I have over 20 years working with Criminals from putting them in there too minding them when they still went to Pat's.

    You think oberstown is a **** hole? It's got better faculties than most normal schools.

    The prisons have TV, pool tables, gym, individual cells with TV work sairview and PlayStation 2 (old but still good) and perfectly acceptable meals compete with pocket money and a shop sweet.

    They have courses available every single day for adults and there own doctor with medical facilities.

    Are they holiday homes? No let's not get carried away but hell holes? Far from it. Perhaps if they were they would pay the fine instead of going in overnight.


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    #135
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    I have over 20 years working with Criminals from putting them in there too minding them when they still went to Pat's.

    You think oberstown is a **** hole? It's got better faculties than most normal schools.

    The prisons have TV, pool tables, gym, individual cells with TV work sairview and PlayStation 2 (old but still good) and perfectly acceptable meals compete with pocket money and a shop sweet.

    They have courses available every single day for adults and there own doctor with medical facilities.

    Are they holiday homes? No let's not get carried away but hell holes? Far from it. Perhaps if they were they would pay the fine instead of going in overnight.


    Why are there so many untreated addiction and physiological issues if the facilities are so excellent?

    Why are so many serious offenders going down the route of the route of diversion rather than going to this facility?

    I appreciate that (for the most part) staff are doing their best but we've a issue with under funding and a lack places. I'll concede hellhole may be over stating it but taking the system as a whole there are systemic issues that need to be addressed and it's not a holiday camp as some people make out.


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    #136
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    ...Ghost... wrote: »
    Just a random thought, but maybe only certain categories of convictions should be reported to prospective employers and much like penalty points, have an expiry period.

    On a related note, I can never understand why an insurance company asks if I have EVER been convicted of a "NON-MOTORING" offense! If I had been, it's none of their feckin business if I threw a bucket of paint on the neighbours dog when I was 10.....(dramatisation, may not have happened).


    We (finally) have spent convictions legislation.


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    #137
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Pronto63 wrote: »
    That’s true. I’ll correct myself:
    Workers are LESS likely to have feral kids running amok!

    Yep, workers out at work, kids left to their own devices.
    No, their little Liams & Caoimhes can do no wrong......


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    #138
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Why are there so many untreated addiction and physiological issues if the facilities are so excellent?

    Why are so many serious offenders going down the route of the route of diversion rather than going to this facility?

    I appreciate that (for the most part) staff are doing their best but we've a issue with under funding and a lack places. I'll concede hellhole may be over stating it but taking the system as a whole there are systemic issues that need to be addressed and it's not a holiday camp as some people make out.

    Because people choose not to avail of the services and make the most of the opportunity. I would have thought that was self explanatory. Criminals CHOOSE to continue being criminals because it's a valid life choice for them. Prison holds no fear, welfare keeps on rolling and they never actually pay back their victims. It's all in my first post.

    And again as I said elsewhere, every fecking criminal I know claims a mental illness of some sort. Using them as a sample the entire country has ADHD and 'anxiety'. Stop robbing people and get a job, the 'anxiety' might just be called 'stresses of life' then. I get stressed, you probable get stressed, bills need paying and as transmission bus driver famously said, there's only so much overtime.


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    #139
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Yep, workers out at work, kids left to their own devices.
    No, their little Liams & Caoimhes can do no wrong......

    Generally they would be in school and with minders.


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    #140
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    Generally they would be in school and with minders.

    The teenagers?
    Plenty of kids of working parents are allowed to do whatever they want.
    You should know that


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    #141
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    Because people choose not to avail of the services and make the most of the opportunity. I would have thought that was self explanatory. Criminals CHOOSE to continue being criminals because it's a valid life choice for them. Prison holds no fear, welfare keeps on rolling and they never actually pay back their victims. It's all in my first post.

    And again as I said elsewhere, every fecking criminal I know claims a mental illness of some sort. Using them as a sample the entire country has ADHD and 'anxiety'. Stop robbing people and get a job, the 'anxiety' might just be called 'stresses of life' then. I get stressed, you probable get stressed, bills need paying and as transmission bus driver famously said, there's only so much overtime.

    It is the job of a defence barrister to get their client off so he/she uses every excuse there is to effect that. A tactic. Needs not be true? Unless there is medical evidence


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    #142
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    Because people choose not to avail of the services and make the most of the opportunity. I would have thought that was self explanatory. Criminals CHOOSE to continue being criminals because it's a valid life choice for them. Prison holds no fear, welfare keeps on rolling and they never actually pay back their victims. It's all in my first post.

    Fear of prisons is no deterrent, especially with our revolving door. As I've said I believe that repeat offenders should be given long sentences but in Nordic style prisons that have a lower recidivism rate.
    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    And again as I said elsewhere, every fecking criminal I know claims a mental illness of some sort. Using them as a sample the entire country has ADHD and 'anxiety'. Stop robbing people and get a job, the 'anxiety' might just be called 'stresses of life' then. I get stressed, you probable get stressed, bills need paying and as transmission bus driver famously said, there's only so much overtime.

    Maybe there just is a higher incidence of mental illness and we're just not doing anything about it in prisons we're certainly not at the forefront of addiction rehabilitation.

    You've also avoided my point that we're using a soft touch of diversion far too much and not intervening sooner. Given I seem to want to lock up more people and for longer I'm not sure how you can say my attitude is the one that is responsible for the perpetuation of crime. Unless you think the community approach is working and I will listen to your point if you think it is.

    Lastly on funding - Oberstown has what, 40 - 50 places? Open to correction there. What other facilities do we have for juveniles? Again genuine question. There are probably 40 kids on a single estate in some cases that need massive intervention because of ****e waster parents.


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    #143
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Graces7 wrote: »
    It is the job of a defence barrister to get their client off so he/she uses every excuse there is to effect that. A tactic. Needs not be true? Unless there is medical evidence


    A plea of mitigation will be backed up with evidence. While you'd think it's the job of defence to 'get people off' the vast majority plead guilty and that's when mitigation comes into play.


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    #144
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bubblypop wrote: »
    The teenagers?
    Plenty of kids of working parents are allowed to do whatever they want.
    You should know that

    Teenagers don't go to school? I thought just teens were about 17 or 18 sitting the leaving.

    And yes, of course not all are watched and steered straight but studies have shown that The most likely to stay in education and not enter the Criminal world are those from a stable working household. The most likely to enter criminality stress those who's father's are Criminals followed by those with absent father's so actually, sometimes Daddy sticking around causes more harm


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    #145
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Graces7 wrote: »
    It is the job of a defence barrister to get their client off so he/she uses every excuse there is to effect that. A tactic. Needs not be true? Unless there is medical evidence

    Actually all solicitors and barristers take an oath to seek the truth and uphold Justice.

    I have never seen a solicitor openly lie in court. Instead most cases would involve suggestions designed to cast doubt in a judge / jury by making the witness appear wrong or unsure

    Anyway, I'm not going by what defences say, I'm talking direct to Criminals and yes, it is bull**** that they all have these illnesses. It's a crock of **** to stay on welfare and get sympathy.


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    #146
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,050 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    What is the point of suggesting 'put them in the army?' The army does not need gun fodder any more, soldiers are qualified people with skills and hopefully a decent lifestyle. How does throwing in a rabble of indisciplined, reluctant youths work? Who gets to run them round and 'mind' them. I'd suggest the days of whitewashing the coal are long gone.


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    #147
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    A plea of mitigation will be backed up with evid ence. While you'd think it's the job of defence to 'get people off' the vast majority plead guilty and that's when mitigation comes into play.

    sigh. devious. I am out of touch; thank you.


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    #148
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    We should be never getting to that stage. Where we do I agree with a long custodial sentence, but one where there are options for the person to reform if they don't take them, and re-offend upon release - another long sentence should be imposed.

    so by then they are institutionalised ?


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    #149
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    That's not unequivocal proof, the policy of having a minimum 10% social housing in new estates stems from nothing bar left wing ideology

    Always love the anecdotes , everyone on boards who lives in a council gaf paints the entire experience as a paradise with no social issues and all the neighbours work and theres never been any trouble, when literally by every metric be it crime, antisocial behaviour, employment stats, life expectancy, substance abuse issues we can all see that these are guaranteed to be much worse than in private estates.


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