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BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Count me down as another person in favour of the BusConnects CPOing and the CG plaza, by the way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    Interesting to see the NTA figuring out how to use twitter

    https://twitter.com/dermotog/status/1054308228425768960


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Unfortunately one of the most pro-active critics of BusConnects, a FF activist, cannot bring themselves to admit they got it wrong.

    https://twitter.com/LukeMartin_DL/status/1054294583864147968

    After it's proven to be incorrect, they resort to deflection rather than admit their scaremongering.
    https://twitter.com/LukeMartin_DL/status/1054326944748187650


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    By the by - Mr Murray is photographed by the Irish Times standing at stop 1190 - this should clear up any vagueness as to where he gets on the bus. In this case, the gentleman would not have to walk any further to catch the bus, he could walk to the same 1190 stop, and get on the N4 directly to Spencer Dock. I think it's absolutely appalling behavior by the Irish Times to (a) not fact-check this but more importantly (b) not to contact Mr Murray and give him corrected information.

    It seems to me that the publication of an article with an clickbaiting headline was more important to the Irish Times editors and journalists than the truth. This is just another little peak behind the curtain of the dumpster fire that is Irish journalism.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,194 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    MJohnston wrote: »
    By the by - Mr Murray is photographed by the Irish Times standing at stop 1190 - this should clear up any vagueness as to where he gets on the bus. In this case, the gentleman would not have to walk any further to catch the bus, he could walk to the same 1190 stop, and get on the N4 directly to Spencer Dock. I think it's absolutely appalling behavior by the Irish Times to (a) not fact-check this but more importantly (b) not to contact Mr Murray and give him corrected information.

    It seems to me that the publication of an article with an clickbaiting headline was more important to the Irish Times editors and journalists than the truth. This is just another little peak behind the curtain of the dumpster fire that is Irish journalism.

    Yeah, that's despicable really. Either they abandoned all journalistic integrity in not doing the very minimum of fact checking, or they abandoned all journalistic integrity in knowing that he was wrong and not informing him of that fact.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    devnull wrote: »
    Unfortunately one of the most pro-active critics of BusConnects, a FF activist, cannot bring themselves to admit they got it wrong.

    You'd imagine the real story is a vulnerable member of society being needlessly distressed by incorrect information that certainly did not originate with the NTA.

    That same person was then motivated to campaign against their own interest stop something that improves their transport links.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,317 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    CatInABox wrote: »
    Yeah, that's despicable really. Either they abandoned all journalistic integrity in not doing the very minimum of fact checking, or they abandoned all journalistic integrity in knowing that he was wrong and not informing him of that fact.

    Fact checking and perspective when it comes to infrastructure projects in Ireland is on existing. Joan Burton was ranting in the Dail about how outrageous it was that Jarrett Walker was paid €615k for this project. I would doubt that she checked this price compared to similar vendors or comparative international examples of money spent on similar amount of work


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    MJohnston wrote: »
    It seems to me that the publication of an article with an clickbaiting headline was more important to the Irish Times editors and journalists than the truth. This is just another little peak behind the curtain of the dumpster fire that is Irish journalism.

    Even the headline itself is quite badly written, referring to a blind man, then the next word being view. Honestly it doesn't say too much about the standards of Irish journalism, where for too long, people are able to say something and there is no fact checking at all, just someone said it, so we'll take their word for it.

    That's what frustrates me about BusConnects coverage in general, no journalists seem to be challenging anything which either side says, literally just giving the statements attention no matter how wild or inaccurate they are.hat the person said,

    Then you have the likes of RTE that are addicted to paraphrasing.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,194 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    I also don't get the objection that they didn't reach out to disability groups. A better bus network will be better for everyone, including disabled groups.

    Will some people, including disabled people, have to interchange? Yes.
    Do some disabled people have to interchange now? Yes.
    Will some people be worse off under BusConnects? Yes.
    Will some people be better off under BusConnects? Yes.

    If we have to have a bus service that caters for absolutely everyone, then we'll have a bus service so bad that nobody will use it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    CatInABox wrote: »
    Will some people, including disabled people, have to interchange? Yes.
    Do some disabled people have to interchange now? Yes.
    Will some people be worse off under BusConnects? Yes.
    Will some people be better off under BusConnects? Yes.

    Will anyone step up to the plate and propose a Dial-A-Bus service? No
    Why ? Because they are crocodile tears
    Why ? Because it serves their political interests to tear things down when it's proposed by the other side


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    CatInABox wrote: »
    I also don't get the objection that they didn't reach out to disability groups. A better bus network will be better for everyone, including disabled groups.

    When the car restriction was proposed for the quays one of the objections was that old people and the disabled need to be able to drive into the city centre.

    There are a number of elements that don't care at all about anyone's need for public transport, only what suits their ambitions. Tricking people into voting against their own self interest is clever if you can manage but requires a fair degree of sociopathy to pull off.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    I've submitted a complaint to the Digital Editor of the Irish Times about that article. May be useless (although if I don't see a correction I'll complain to the Ombudsman next) but I can't do nothing, and I'm fed up with these kinds of small inaccuracies or lies just sliding by without comment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,415 ✭✭✭.G.


    sharper wrote: »
    You'd imagine the real story is a vulnerable member of society being needlessly distressed by incorrect information that certainly did not originate with the NTA.

    That same person was then motivated to campaign against their own interest stop something that improves their transport links.

    This puts the madness of it all perfectly in focus. I'd tweet that back to him if I were you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,284 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    The lady moaning about her front gardens in that IT article, my god, talk about having unbelievable excess while purposely keeping up with the joneses at the same time. Haha. But seriously though; what level of good is she giving here that her complaint in losing some of her garden is actually justified to other average joe soaps in society. She comes across to others as a very elite form of NIMBYsim towards others as it's quite depressing to hear this level of resistance from the likes of her.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,822 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    marno21 wrote: »
    Fact checking and perspective when it comes to infrastructure projects in Ireland is on existing. Joan Burton was ranting in the Dail about how outrageous it was that Jarrett Walker was paid €615k for this project. I would doubt that she checked this price compared to similar vendors or comparative international examples of money spent on similar amount of work

    The irony of Joan Burton ranting about the overpaid....


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    What, just 615k for what looks like an incredibly solid plan and then having to put up with and deal with the nonsense from the NBRU and others! Sounds like incredible value to me.

    Remember he has a staff of a dozen or so, it isn't all going in his pocket. To be honest, I had assumed a couple million for quality consultancy work and detailed planning like this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    bk wrote: »
    What, just 615k for what looks like an incredibly solid plan and then having to put up with and deal with the nonsense from the NBRU and others! Sounds like incredible value to me.

    Remember he has a staff of a dozen or so, it isn't all going in his pocket. To be honest, I had assumed a couple million for quality consultancy work and detailed planning like this.

    It's a steal.

    Given I worked in a planning consultancy last year and saw what we charged for piddly projects, this is nothing. But WE aren't the ones that need to be convinced.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    The journo is now playing dumb, even when BusConnects correct him, he continues to deny!

    https://twitter.com/magicbathtub/status/1054418913319157761

    It seems the standard of journalism is even worse than I thought, not only are they spouting incorrect information, but they are also now refusing to back down when proven to be incorrect.

    Considering all of the articles in the IT about BusConnects, from the woman with the massive garden and now this and all of the rest of it, I think it's reasonable to ask exactly why is the IT going all out against BusConnects?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    devnull wrote: »
    The journo is now playing dumb, even when BusConnects correct him, he continues to deny!

    https://twitter.com/magicbathtub/status/1054418913319157761

    It seems the standard of journalism is even worse than I thought, not only are they spouting incorrect information, but they are also now refusing to back down when proven to be incorrect.

    Considering all of the articles in the IT about BusConnects, from the woman with the massive garden and now this and all of the rest of it, I think it's reasonable to ask exactly why is the IT going all out against BusConnects?

    Even if Mr Murray needed to go into the city centre for whatever reason, there's the A1 (which would be an extra couple minutes walk to the stop, potentially) which goes right into town, where we can get off at Gardiner street and walk over to Busaras Red Line. This would be essentially equivalent to his current journey, perhaps safer because he doesn't have to cross Amiens Street.

    One thing is for sure, whoever told him he'd have to switch 5 or 6 times is a despicable liar.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    devnull wrote: »
    Considering all of the articles in the IT about BusConnects, from the woman with the massive garden and now this and all of the rest of it, I think it's reasonable to ask exactly why is the IT going all out against BusConnects?

    It can be hard to differentiate between modern outrage driven clickbait journalism and an actual position on anything but whatever they have against bus connects they also had against traffic restrictions on the quays

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/taking-cars-out-of-dublin-capital-getting-ready-for-new-restrictions-1.3059524
    For motorists travelling west to east along the north quays, who are forced to turn left on to O’Connell Street, the shortest diversion route to return to the riverside at Custom House Quay would be 2.7km.

    The same journey can currently be made in 550m.

    I'm sure few at the Irish Times and even less at Fianna Fáil actually make use of Dublin Bus so really it's just a convenient issue to fling mud over.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,853 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Might take another five years ( being optimistic here) for bus transport to improve.

    The good of the many should outweigh the perceived problems of the few.

    But we all know that the few often have the loudest voices.

    I am sorry now, but I am not optimistic at the moment. Leaving aside the fact that it seems to take a generation to change anything in this country, the voices of the few will feed into local reps in an election year to come too.

    Sigh....


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,005 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    CatInABox wrote: »
    I also don't get the objection that they didn't reach out to disability groups. A better bus network will be better for everyone, including disabled groups.
    There are particular issues for some people with disabilities that don't apply to the most of the rest of the population. Changing buses is much more difficult for people with disabilities than for others.


    Walker is aware of this, based on what I've seen him talking about over recent years. But some targetted consultation and targeted response would have been helpful. Public bodies have explicit legal obligations to ensure services are accessible to people with and without disabilities. It would also have avoided the possibilities of some of the whinging that we're seeing now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭circular flexing


    I wonder if something like this would address some of the issues that disabled users are pointing out

    https://www.translink.ca/Rider-Guide/Accessible-Transit/HandyDART.aspx


  • Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭Pseudorandom


    MJohnston wrote: »
    I've submitted a complaint to the Digital Editor of the Irish Times about that article. May be useless (although if I don't see a correction I'll complain to the Ombudsman next) but I can't do nothing, and I'm fed up with these kinds of small inaccuracies or lies just sliding by without comment.

    How did you do that? Is there an email address? Because honestly I'd like to complain as well. Journalism shouldn't be about just reporting what is said, some basic fact checking should be done.

    Edited to add: Sorry I see the email address for digital editor is here
    https://www.irishtimes.com/about-us/contact-us

    The only official complaints link I can find is for offensive comments on articles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    How did you do that? Is there an email address? Because honestly I'd like to complain as well. Journalism shouldn't be about just reporting what is said, some basic fact checking should be done.

    Edited to add: Sorry I see the email address for digital editor is here
    https://www.irishtimes.com/about-us/contact-us

    The only official complaints link I can find is for offensive comments on articles.

    The Press Council of Ireland's Code of Practice specifically says:
    Principle 1 − Truth and Accuracy
    1.1 In reporting news and information, the press shall strive at all times for truth and accuracy.
    1.2 When a significant inaccuracy, misleading statement or distorted report or picture has been published, it shall be corrected promptly and with due prominence.
    1.3 When appropriate, a retraction, apology, clarification, explanation or response shall be published promptly and with due prominence.

    So there's a responsibility that they have that they're abandoning. If the Irish Times editor doesn't respond, I will be following up with the PCI.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Well it's been retweeted 20 times and liked 60 times so unfortunately it seems that such inaccurate news is being lapped up by people, as the scaremongering of transforming our bus services continues.

    Will actively avoid the Irish Times now, making money and clickbait is surely more important than being accurate and that is a scary slope for this country to be getting into, when you look at the state of the UK press who have the same principles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 400 ✭✭Conway635


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Even if Mr Murray needed to go into the city centre for whatever reason, there's the A1 (which would be an extra couple minutes walk to the stop, potentially) which goes right into town, where we can get off at Gardiner street and walk over to Busaras Red Line. This would be essentially equivalent to his current journey, perhaps safer because he doesn't have to cross Amiens Street.

    One thing is for sure, whoever told him he'd have to switch 5 or 6 times is a despicable liar.




    The article is grossly misleading.


    Bear in mind that it states "For a distance of 5km as the crow flies, his twice daily changover will become a six stage ordeal"


    First off, "as the crow flies" clearly implies that we are talking about an end to end direct journey, and that any detours on the way are only due to the geometry of the transport network. This makes the omission of the direct N4 bus route all the more misleading. It is clearly implied that there is no comparable direct service under Bus Connects.


    If the writer knows of a reason why the user must detour via the city centre, there is no reason to use the "as the crow flies" comparison, as it is irrelevent.



    But look at what else is being done in that single sentence. there is a "bait and switch" operation, whereby the number of interchanges needed in the "now" condition (two) is compared with the number of journey segments (six) in the Bus Connects version. Thus two becomes six . . which seems really bad.


    It should be either:


    two daily changovers becomes four


    or



    four existing segments becomes six


    The "apples and oranges" comparison used is misleading, and misleading in the direction of the slant of the article.


    And that's even ignoring the actual point that two daily changes could become zero with Bus Connects, and four daily segments become two !!


    C635


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 17,129 Mod ✭✭✭✭cherryghost


    Not the first or last time Irish Times pushes an agenda with misinformation. Infuriating reading that article and representative TDs agreeing with it on Twitter(again an agenda thank you FF).


  • Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    Not the first or last time Irish Times pushes an agenda with misinformation. Infuriating reading that article and representative TDs agreeing with it on Twitter(again an agenda thank you FF).
    The Irish Times is constantly, chronically negative about any public transport improvements in Dublin.


    Constantly seeking out sob stories while missing the fact that small improvements multiplied by hundreds of thousands of people is a really big deal.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,142 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    devnull wrote: »
    Well it's been retweeted 20 times and liked 60 times so unfortunately it seems that such inaccurate news is being lapped up by people, as the scaremongering of transforming our bus services continues.

    Retweets and likes don't necessarily mean endorsements. People retweet to other people as a way to say, here, have a read of this nonsense. Or like things in order to bookmark.


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