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Non-Habitable Attic Space?

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  • 02-02-2019 1:10pm
    #1
    Gatster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,415 ✭✭✭


    We viewed a house recently that has an attic room, permanent staircase and an en-suite.

    There are all the appropriate certs for building regs but it is a non-habitable space owing to the fire regs and head space.

    The thing is the agent has included it as part of the overall floor space for the whole property, but as it’s effectively storage I don’t think think this is correct. The house is pricier than similar properties because of this.

    Any thoughts whether this can be questioned?


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    #2
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    How much more than others in the area without the converted attic? We are looking at the cost of an attic conversion and they are not cheap even without an en-suite. Plus you will not have any of the disruption or mess that happens with building works which can be a nightmare.


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    #3
    KaneToad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,160 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    Gatster wrote: »
    We viewed a house recently that has an attic room, permanent staircase and an en-suite.

    There are all the appropriate certs for building regs but it is a non-habitable space owing to the fire regs and head space.

    The thing is the agent has included it as part of the overall floor space for the whole property, but as it’s effectively storage I don’t think think this is correct. The house is pricier than similar properties because of this.

    Any thoughts whether this can be questioned?

    It doesn't matter what the agent includes in his calculation of floor space. He might also like to include the shed and wardrobe floor spaces. You're the buyer, assess the floorspace yourself and bid accordingly.

    The agent is acting for the seller. I would take everything he says with a pinch of salt.


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    #4
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Gave you a response in your building regulations thread.


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    #5
    Nobodysrobots
    Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭Nobodysrobots


    How much is an attic conversion with ensuite and velux windows on your average 3/4 bed semi d with standard roof these days? Thinking of doing the same to a property we're bidding on.


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    #6
    Nobodysrobots
    Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭Nobodysrobots


    Also I've heard engineers conducting pre purchase surveys rarely if ever sign off conversions for bedroom use, is this true?


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    #7
    adaephon
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭adaephon


    Hi Have had 2 quotes for 18k for this. one without cosmetic and one with (tiling etc)


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    #8
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    I assume the certs include fire certs. If so then the issue may just be ceiling height, which is fairly arbitrary.


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    #9
    seefin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭seefin


    Zorya wrote:
    Try blast out of your self absorption for a while, give it a good shot, lots of exercise, read about things you don't know, do new things, spend memorable time with the children, give it your all for a year or so, appreciating what you have, and postpone thinking about stuff. Reevaluate after you have given life a real run for its money and if it still feels crap maybe see a counsellor.

    adaephon wrote:
    Hi Have had 2 quotes for 18k for this. one without cosmetic and one with (tiling etc)

    That's not too bad. Is that for attic conversion in a 3 bed?


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    #10
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,001 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    If you think the house is too expensive then don't bid on it, seems simple enough?


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    #11
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,259 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Gatster wrote: »
    We viewed a house recently that has an attic room, permanent staircase and an en-suite.

    There are all the appropriate certs for building regs but it is a non-habitable space owing to the fire regs and head space.

    The thing is the agent has included it as part of the overall floor space for the whole property, but as it’s effectively storage I don’t think think this is correct. The house is pricier than similar properties because of this.

    Any thoughts whether this can be questioned?
    Nothing to question. Just make an offer on what you are willing to spend on it. Bottom line is owners want to sell it for x are you willing to offer x.

    Also while it’s not technically considered habitable is it cuttentky or will you use it as such. Plenty of people do


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    #12
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭1641


    Everyone else will see the house the way you do. So the price is the price that someone is prepared to pay at the end of the day.
    As noted, plenty of people use such conversions for habitation. Beware, though, that there may be insurance issues - in the event of a claim and it emerges that it is being lived in. Is it for your own use or rental ? Also the same issues, and reservations for some, will still be there if you come to sell again.


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    #13
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Gatster wrote: »
    We viewed a house recently that has an attic room, permanent staircase and an en-suite.

    There are all the appropriate certs for building regs but it is a non-habitable space owing to the fire regs and head space.

    The thing is the agent has included it as part of the overall floor space for the whole property, but as it’s effectively storage I don’t think think this is correct. The house is pricier than similar properties because of this.

    Any thoughts whether this can be questioned?

    The attic space is usable as a store. It just can't be used for sleeping accommodation. Other space such as understairs storage will also be included in the floor space measurement. In any event, the agent will have contracted out of any liability for the dimensions provided and it will be up to you to satisfy yourself as to the dimensions.
    The agent can quote any price the owner instructs him to quote. What prices are being quoted for other properties is irrelevant.
    The decision you have to make is how much the house is worth to you, if anything. Bid up to that level and if you don't get a deal, abandon any idea of buying that property.


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    #14
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    its an attic conversion that almost certainly was used as a bedroom and probably will by whoever the new owner is , regardless of regulations or certs. The most irish of irish planning violations.


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    #15
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    its an attic conversion that almost certainly was used as a bedroom and probably will by whoever the new owner is , regardless of regulations or certs. The most irish of irish planning violations.

    You don't need planning to convert the attic space to a bedroom so its not a Planning Violation.


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    #16
    Brego888
    Registered Users Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭Brego888


    kceire wrote: »
    You don't need planning to convert the attic space to a bedroom so its not a Planning Violation.

    What do you actually need to officially classify an attic conversion as a bedroom?


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    #17
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Brego888 wrote: »
    What do you actually need to officially classify an attic conversion as a bedroom?

    Building Regulation Compliance.
    You are converting a 2 storey house into a 3 storey house so significant structural alterations and fire safety provisions must be met.

    This will go some way of explaining the requirements - https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C1657%2Cen.pdf


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    #18
    Optimus Prime
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 5,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Optimus Prime


    Does anyone know if an attic is converted to a room that is used for storage and i honestly mean storage, not a bedroom, no en-suite, but it has a permanent stairs going up to it do you need planning permissions or any certs for different things? Im clueless about this stuff but my attic in our house is converted but we dont have any of that. It has a fire alarm in it, wired. and a couple of plug sockets. 2 x Velux windows to the back of the house. Just wondering if we ever sell will it be an issue. Thanks


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    #19
    sunnyday1234
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭sunnyday1234


    Optimus Prime wrote: »
    Does anyone know if an attic is converted to a room that is used for storage and i honestly mean storage, not a bedroom, no en-suite, but it has a permanent stairs going up to it do you need planning permissions or any certs for different things? Im clueless about this stuff but my attic in our house is converted but we dont have any of that.  It has a fire alarm in it, wired.  and a couple of plug sockets.  2 x Velux windows to the back of the house.  Just wondering if we ever sell will it be an issue.  Thanks
    One thing you need anyway is self closing fire doors all the way down to the exit of the house so in the event of a fire on the second floor then anyone in the 3rd floor will be able to get out of the house. We had to do this and its costly and the self closing doors are very annoying but its unreal the amount of people who have their attic converted incorrectly thinking they will never need to sell the house
    Then when they try and sell it , if the buyer is getting a mortgage then the bank will insist on an engineers report and any good engineer wont sign it off as its basically invalidating the house insurance


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    #20
    3DataModem
    Registered Users Posts: 3,944 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    We just sold a house with an attic converted to a room that we used for sleeping but was not a habitable space according to regs. Almost every buyer noted the fact and it affected price. The attic still added value, but not as much as a habitable space obviously.

    The other downside was that one 1st floor room was reduced to accommodate stairs to attic at the time, bringing the room under habitable space minimum for house built at that time. We knew this at the time we made the change.

    As the posters above said; you just need to find a buyer who wants what you are selling.


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    #21
    C3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭C3PO


    3DataModem wrote: »
    We just sold a house with an attic converted to a room that we used for sleeping but was not a habitable space according to regs. Almost every buyer noted the fact and it affected price. The attic still added value, but not as much as a habitable space obviously.

    The other downside was that one 1st floor room was reduced to accommodate stairs to attic at the time, bringing the room under habitable space minimum for house built at that time. We knew this at the time we made the change.

    As the posters above said; you just need to find a buyer who wants what you are selling.

    But did you provide engineers reports etc to the buyer?


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    #22
    Optimus Prime
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 5,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Optimus Prime


    3DataModem wrote: »
    We just sold a house with an attic converted to a room that we used for sleeping but was not a habitable space according to regs. Almost every buyer noted the fact and it affected price. The attic still added value, but not as much as a habitable space obviously.

    The other downside was that one 1st floor room was reduced to accommodate stairs to attic at the time, bringing the room under habitable space minimum for house built at that time. We knew this at the time we made the change.

    As the posters above said; you just need to find a buyer who wants what you are selling.

    There was no changes made to any bedrooms in our house, i have no problem not being able to sell it as a habitable room, thats not what its intended purpose ever was, so i honestly wouldnt mind if it was sold as just converted for storage, that would be fine.


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    #23
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Optimus Prime wrote: »
    Does anyone know if an attic is converted to a room that is used for storage and i honestly mean storage, not a bedroom, no en-suite, but it has a permanent stairs going up to it do you need planning permissions or any certs for different things? Im clueless about this stuff but my attic in our house is converted but we dont have any of that. It has a fire alarm in it, wired. and a couple of plug sockets. 2 x Velux windows to the back of the house. Just wondering if we ever sell will it be an issue. Thanks

    Still a conversion from a 2 to 3 storey dwelling so structural certs and fire safety compliance at a minimum.


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    #24
    Optimus Prime
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 5,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Optimus Prime


    Yeh i dont have those.. is it a 3 story dwelling if its just for storage? is it the inclusion of a stairs that changes that?


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    #25
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Optimus Prime wrote: »
    Yeh i dont have those.. is it a 3 story dwelling if its just for storage? is it the inclusion of a stairs that changes that?

    The new accessible storey changes it in my opinion.


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    #26
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Optimus Prime wrote: »
    Yeh i dont have those.. is it a 3 story dwelling if its just for storage? is it the inclusion of a stairs that changes that?

    I'd like to know this too or is it the alterations to the rafters supporting the roof?
    What if the rafters are not changed and the access is a pull down ladder?


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    #27
    Limpy
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Limpy


    I got mine done.

    The key thing here regardless of what you use it for is you are cutting away the rafters. Your original certificate of compliance when the house was build would be invalidated.

    So selling will create problems. My mum had a similar room which people slep in and it's still perfect. Completed using wood. Add a few k and you can get rolled steel to add support to the floor. You need to inform your neighbour if your house is a semi or terraced house of you are putting the steel into the party wall.

    I have one. Build with wood. I don't plan on selling my house for a long time so I will worry about that in 20 years.

    I will inform the insurance company also to see what they say.


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    #28
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    Limpy wrote: »
    I got mine done.

    The key thing here regardless of what you use it for is you are cutting away the rafters. Your original certificate of compliance when the house was build would be invalidated.

    So selling will create problems. My mum had a similar room which people slep in and it's still perfect. Completed using wood. Add a few k and you can get rolled steel to add support to the floor. You need to inform your neighbour if your house is a semi or terraced house of you are putting the steel into the party wall.

    I have one. Build with wood. I don't plan on selling my house for a long time so I will worry about that in 20 years.

    I will inform the insurance company also to see what they say.


    Do you? my neighbour never informed me, they definitley put steel in and I plan on doing so myself, although I intend on getting someone to do the works so I'll expect they know what needs to be done in terms of paperwork


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    #29
    Limpy
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Limpy


    1874 wrote: »
    Do you? my neighbour never informed me, they definitley put steel in and I plan on doing so myself, although I intend on getting someone to do the works so I'll expect they know what needs to be done in terms of paperwork

    Most people just build away. But there is a party wall act.

    http://www.mypartywall.ie/faq.html

    Even if you get steel and you wanted anything signed off an engineer would need to review the plans before, during and after the work. But you wouldn't get a certificate to says its a room. Just the structure was changed and an engineer put his name to the work being compliment with building regs.


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    #30
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    Limpy wrote: »
    Most people just build away. But there is a party wall act.

    http://www.mypartywall.ie/faq.html

    Even if you get steel and you wanted anything signed off an engineer would need to review the plans before, during and after the work. But you wouldn't get a certificate to says its a room. Just the structure was changed and an engineer put his name to the work being compliment with building regs.


    I just looked cant see anything regarding it, could my neighbour prevent me putting steels into the adjoining wall? they have already done so without informing me. I saw steel being brought in and left in their garden, Ive no doubt it was used for an attic conversion and the clatter of noise suggests they kango'd out part of the wall to rest the steel on, I checked my side at/after that as I was concerned about the level and duration of the noise to see if they had damaged the wall between our attics, and I couldnt find anything, so I took it that it was sound transmission in that instance


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    #31
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    1874 wrote: »
    I just looked cant see anything regarding it, could my neighbour prevent me putting steels into the adjoining wall? they have already done so without informing me. I saw steel being brought in and left in their garden, Ive no doubt it was used for an attic conversion and the clatter of noise suggests they kango'd out part of the wall to rest the steel on, I checked my side at/after that as I was concerned about the level and duration of the noise to see if they had damaged the wall between our attics, and I couldnt find anything, so I took it that it was sound transmission in that instance

    You don’t put steel into the party wall.
    You bolt it to the party wall.

    You try to minimize any penetrations into the party wall if possible.


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