NPPR charges over €7000

Suckit · 11-03-2019 9:08pm #1

I am enquiring about NPPR, what is it and does it have to be paid? Can it be disputed? Any advice at all.

Selling a house and she was told that she needed to pay NPPR charges of around €7500 (I don't know the exact figure).

When she queried what it was she was told that it is a charge for €200 per year between the years of 2009 - 2013, so she pointed out the obvious, which is that, that totals to €800.
She was then told that there is a fee for those that didn't pay it on time. So she then told them that had never heard of it, to pay it.

They said that she couldn't have not known about it if she was living in Ireland, as they ran a campaign on the radio, TV, magazines, newspapers, internet and door to door with flyers.

So she is now wondering what options are (house is not sold). Can it be disputed, would they agree to installments, can she pay the €800, could she go to court taking oath that she never heard of it, is it worth the hassle etc.

Simple_Simone · 11-03-2019 9:13pm

Suckit wrote: »

I am enquiring about NPPR, what is it and does it have to be paid? Can it be disputed? Any advice at all.

Selling a house and she was told that she needed to pay NPPR charges of around €7500 (I don't know the exact figure).

When she queried what it was she was told that it is a charge for €200 per year between the years of 2009 - 2013, so she pointed out the obvious, which is that, that totals to €800.
She was then told that there is a fee for those that didn't pay it on time. So she then told them that had never heard of it, to pay it.

They said that she couldn't have not known about it if she was living in Ireland, as they ran a campaign on the radio, TV, magazines, newspapers, internet and door to door with flyers.

So she is now wondering what options are (house is not sold). Can it be disputed, would they agree to installments, can she pay the €800, could she go to court taking oath that she never heard of it, is it worth the hassle etc.

Why not start by searching Boards.ie for NPPR - you'll find loads of threads.

Bottom line is that the Bart Simpson defence won't save her! The best thing for her to do is to contact the Local Authority involved and haggle.

L1011 · 11-03-2019 9:14pm

Ignorance is no defense, there is no option to dispute payment on that basis. Full payment will be required to release for sale.

The house was a non-principal residence the entire time (e.g. rental, holiday home) definitely?

Marcusm · 11-03-2019 9:33pm

Simple_Simone wrote: »

Why not start by searching Boards.ie for NPPR - you'll find loads of threads.

Bottom line is that the Bart Simpson defence won't save her! The best thing for her to do is to contact the Local Authority involved and haggle.

Enforcement is now with Revenue. Passed there in 2014, there is no scope for haggling unless the house was demonstrably uninhabitable. The solicitor will not release the funds until proof of payment or clearance is delivered.

ted1 · 11-03-2019 9:36pm

Ignorance is no excuse, as a person charging for services she should of know her liabilities.

Also it’s 1,000

2009 200
2010 200
2011 200
2012 200
2013 200

Total = 1000

Late payments fees here : https://www.nppr.ie/faq.aspx#fk1

[Deleted User] · 11-03-2019 9:39pm

ted1 wrote: »

Ignorance is no excuse, as a person charging for services she should of know her liabilities.

Also it’s 1,000

2009 200
2010 200
2011 200
2012 200
2013 200

Total = 1000

the penalty fees rise up to 7200 as i recall

the line used at the time for people calling and claiming they didnt know about it was "if it was on fire in the morning youd know about it"

ted1 · 11-03-2019 9:40pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

the penalty fees rise up to 7200 as i recall

the line used at the time for people calling and claiming they didnt know about it was "if it was on fire in the morning youd know about it"

I know it’s that I was getting at the op for trying to be smart and saying it’s 800

splinter65 · 11-03-2019 9:42pm

Suckit wrote: »

I am enquiring about NPPR, what is it and does it have to be paid? Can it be disputed? Any advice at all.

Selling a house and she was told that she needed to pay NPPR charges of around €7500 (I don't know the exact figure).

When she queried what it was she was told that it is a charge for €200 per year between the years of 2009 - 2013, so she pointed out the obvious, which is that, that totals to €800.
She was then told that there is a fee for those that didn't pay it on time. So she then told them that had never heard of it, to pay it.

They said that she couldn't have not known about it if she was living in Ireland, as they ran a campaign on the radio, TV, magazines, newspapers, internet and door to door with flyers.

So she is now wondering what options are (house is not sold). Can it be disputed, would they agree to installments, can she pay the €800, could she go to court taking oath that she never heard of it, is it worth the hassle etc.

She won’t be able to sell the house till she’s paid the €800 plus late fees and penalties €7500. Legally the sale can’t be completed unless Revenue clear the way. Don’t waste any more money on a solicitor trying to fight it. If you're speculating in property in any way you need to get legal advice about your obligations as well as your rights and entitlements. If you don’t these are the consequences.

mickdw · 11-03-2019 9:48pm

No sympathy. I see this catching alot of people however it was heavily advertised at the time but people just didn't bother.
The 200 or 250 per year was a small amount. What they then did was added 20 per month penalty. When this went to second year unpaid, you were paying 40 per month penalty etc.
There was then a period when people were allowed to pay 4k or so to completely discharge the debt and at that stage if you contacted the council there were option for part payment or instalments etc. If you still ignored all, it went to 7k plus and was to be recovered by revenue on sale or transfer of the property.
I believe that it will no longer be collected after a certain date so if you hold the property long enough it will be ok, otherwise it's owed and no way out if selling today.

Suckit · 11-03-2019 10:32pm

Thanks everyone, will pass on the information. I personally had never heard of it either, but I wouldn't have had cause to pay attention to those adverts.

ted1 wrote: »

I know it’s that I was getting at the op for trying to be smart and saying it’s 800

I wasn't trying to be smart saying €800. Not even sure how asking in a forum and mentioning €200 less would even be considered trying to be smart.
I had just repeated what she said. It seemed correct to me without thinking too much about it.

myshirt · 11-03-2019 10:34pm

Jesus Christ.

Is this a f*cking wind up?

Get rid of that property and never ever own one again. Ever.

If you haven't a clue what you are doing take professional advice. There's no point even saying anything to you on here. Sweet suffering Jesus.

Suckit · 11-03-2019 10:36pm

L1011 wrote: »

Ignorance is no defense, there is no option to dispute payment on that basis. Full payment will be required to release for sale.

The house was a non-principal residence the entire time (e.g. rental, holiday home) definitely?

I'm not sure about the last bit. I don't think anybody at all was living in it for a while, and I believe she was living in it for around 1½ years during those years, but I would need to double check with her. But almost certain.

L1011 · 11-03-2019 10:38pm

Any years for which you can prove it was the owners PPR can be discounted. However, if they owned other properties at the time that they will later need to claim as their PPR - just don't. CGT liabilities could be generated.

4ensic15 · 11-03-2019 10:45pm

Suckit wrote: »

I am enquiring about NPPR, what is it and does it have to be paid? Can it be disputed? Any advice at all.

Selling a house and she was told that she needed to pay NPPR charges of around €7500 (I don't know the exact figure).

When she queried what it was she was told that it is a charge for €200 per year between the years of 2009 - 2013, so she pointed out the obvious, which is that, that totals to €800.
She was then told that there is a fee for those that didn't pay it on time. So she then told them that had never heard of it, to pay it.

They said that she couldn't have not known about it if she was living in Ireland, as they ran a campaign on the radio, TV, magazines, newspapers, internet and door to door with flyers.

So she is now wondering what options are (house is not sold). Can it be disputed, would they agree to installments, can she pay the €800, could she go to court taking oath that she never heard of it, is it worth the hassle etc.

She could challenge the constitutionality of the penalty. If she succeeds it would only mean paying €800

L1011 · 11-03-2019 10:50pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

She could challenge the constitutionality of the penalty. If she succeeds it would only mean paying €800

And if she fails, be down many more tens of thousands from the process. And have an unsellable house for years.

Useful suggestions are what were wanted I think!

4ensic15 · 11-03-2019 10:50pm

L1011 wrote: »

And if she fails, be down many more tens of thousands from the process.

Win some, lose some.

Suckit · 11-03-2019 10:55pm

L1011 wrote: »

Any years for which you can prove it was the owners PPR can be discounted. However, if they owned other properties at the time that they will later need to claim as their PPR - just don't. CGT liabilities could be generated.

I'm not sure about her owning another property at the time, I don't want to give too much information about her, but I think she became a named owner on another property for a while. I don't really know the ins and outs of that.

4ensic15 wrote: »

She could challenge the constitutionality of the penalty. If she succeeds it would only mean paying €800

Thanks, I will mention it to her, but I'd guess she'll find a way to pay it, as that doesn't seem all that straightforward for her to do.

Coyler · 11-03-2019 10:56pm

Contact Eirgrid and they can tell you who was billed during those years for the electricity. That'll knock a few quid off the top for each year you can produce a bill with the occupiers (your's, your wife) name on it

If the property was vacant most of the time you could argue for a exception. If the bills were still in the occupiers name then all well and good.

By the sounds of your description, you'd be exempt from some of the years. The earlier ones are the more expensive. 2009 alone is €2K so work from there and see what you can cut down.

Worst comes to the worst a good solicitor will pay it out of the proceeds of the sale so you don't have to come up with it upfront. The other party just has to accept the undertaking which any decent solicitor would.

The charges for 2009 are set to expire in March 2021 and every year after that if you want to hold on till then but that's your call as you might loose more than €7K.

And forget about legal challenge. The fine is almost certainly unsound but you're up against the state and they will always have deeper pockets.

Suckit · 11-03-2019 10:56pm

L1011 wrote: »

And if she fails, be down many more tens of thousands from the process. And have an unsellable house for years.
Useful suggestions are what were wanted I think!

4ensic15 wrote: »

Win some, lose some.

Ahh.. Doubt she'll go for that

janedoe007 · 11-03-2019 11:44pm

Section 7 of the Local Government (Charges) Act 2009 provides that if the property is sold without paying off outstanding charges, the new owner could be liable for the outstanding charges. Any such liability would end 12 years after the charge was due.

this is from Citizens info - not sure when liability ends - 2025 ?

Coyler · 12-03-2019 10:47am

It's 12 years from the due date of that year. So March 2021 for 2009, March 2022 for 2010 and so on.

Squatter · 12-03-2019 11:40am

Probably worth reminding those who have forgotten that the NPPR was the brainchild of the Green Party's loathsome ex-leader John Gormless. (And to think that I once voted for Trevor Sargent!

)

4ensic15 · 12-03-2019 11:48am

Coyler wrote: »

It's 12 years from the due date of that year. So March 2021 for 2009, March 2022 for 2010 and so on.

Is it not the original penalties with a cap of €7,200 so if it was owned for the 4 years the €7,200 will be owed until 2025 regardless?

ted1 · 12-03-2019 12:48pm

Suckit wrote: »

I wasn't trying to be smart saying €800.

Your post says otherwise:

“so she pointed out the obvious, which is that, that totals to €800.“

Askthe EA · 12-03-2019 2:23pm

Coyler wrote: »

Contact Eirgrid and they can tell you who was billed during those years for the electricity. T

Doubt that. GDPR.

Coyler · 12-03-2019 3:00pm

Squatter wrote: »

Probably worth reminding those who have forgotten that the NPPR was the brainchild of the Green Party's loathsome ex-leader John Gormless. (And to think that I once voted for Trevor Sargent! )

The charge was. I'll think you'll find that the fine was Noonan's brain child but I don't blame you thinking otherwise. FG not entirely keen to stand over it now.

Suckit · 12-03-2019 3:25pm

Thanks everyone, some great advice here (I don't have any dealings in property, so any advice seems good to me), I passed it on to her and hopefully she can get a clearer understanding of what's in front of her. I think it was just the unexpected notice more than anything. At a guess, I'd say she will probably just go with the solicitor option and paying it off the proceeds of the sale, and probably try to discount any of the time that nobody lived there, or she did.
Thanks again.

daddy pig · 12-03-2019 3:39pm

The charges for NPPR are broke down below. They total €7230
2009 - €2070
2010 - €1830
2011 - €1470
2012 - €1110
2013 - €750

NPPR was a self declaration charge and there was a huge amount of advertising at the time so the excuse that you didn't know will not wash. As far as taking legal action on this I can guarantee you that it is a complete waste of time and money.

You only ability to get out of any charges would be through a cert of exemption. Did your friend live at the property on any of the liability dates? If so a sworn declaration to confirm same witnessed by solicitor along with property folio would mean you can waive the charges for that year.

Edit:
Liability dates were 31st July 09, 31st March 10&11&12&13
Feel free to PM me with any questions as I used to work in NPPR a few years ago

iluvfatfrogs · 12-03-2019 5:33pm

daddy pig wrote: »

The charges for NPPR are broke down below. They total €7230
2009 - €2070
2010 - €1830
2011 - €1470
2012 - €1110
2013 - €750

NPPR was a self declaration charge and there was a huge amount of advertising at the time so the excuse that you didn't know will not wash. As far as taking legal action on this I can guarantee you that it is a complete waste of time and money.

You only ability to get out of any charges would be through a cert of exemption. Did your friend live at the property on any of the liability dates? If so a sworn declaration to confirm same witnessed by solicitor along with property folio would mean you can waive the charges for that year.

Edit:
Liability dates were 31st July 09, 31st March 10&11&12&13
Feel free to PM me with any questions as I used to work in NPPR a few years ago

If the property was held was a trading asset for a self employed builder, is there any from of relief / exemption do you know?

Simple_Simone · 12-03-2019 5:38pm

Coyler wrote: »

The charge was. I'll think you'll find that the fine was Noonan's brain child but I don't blame you thinking otherwise. FG not entirely keen to stand over it now.

Yep, as I wrote, the NPPR was ex Green Party leader John Gormley's brainchild.

The fine for non-payment was introduced by the then Minister for Environment and Local Government, Phil Hogan.

Now, wipe that rabid foam off your mouth, make your self a nice mug of tea and stop being nasty about cuddly Mick Noonan!

Coyler · 12-03-2019 5:58pm

Simple_Simone wrote: »

Yep, as I wrote, the NPPR was ex Green Party leader John Gormley's brainchild.

The fine for non-payment was introduced by the then Minister for Environment and Local Government, Phil Hogan.

Now, wipe that rabid foam off your mouth, make your self a nice mug of tea and stop being nasty about cuddly Mick Noonan!

May I wash my mouth out and say three Hail Mary's

Seriously, though, thanks for the correction. Always good to have things clarified.

NPPR charges over €7000

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