Anti-vaxxers

circadian · 04-12-2020 7:26pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I hadn't heard about this poll (maybe someone else has) but I'll admit that a lot of the anti-vaccine (& 5G, & fluoride) protest nonsense mentioned in this twitter thread surprised me.

https://twitter.com/daveirl/status/1334607223423709192

Personally I don't mind the idea of removing fluoride from the water but that's purely on the belief that proper brushing etc should provide you with enough in this day and age.

However, the concept of removing fluoride certainly attracts the conspiracy crowd and approaching the topic politically would require a very, very clear message that its not to do with mind control or some other bollocks.

Dr. Greenthumb · 04-12-2020 9:14pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Well you'd be totally wrong. There are countries you cannot enter without proof of a recent enough yellow fever vaccine, and this has been the case for decades.

Thanks for highlighting that, interesting there's a precedent.

Again though the mortality rate from yellow fever is far higher that covid. It'll be interesting to see how this all develops.

Strumms · 04-12-2020 9:33pm

I’d have no issue whatsoever if Ireland brought in a check at every port, airport etc that would enable us to verify that each and every arrival into the country has been vaccinated... could be done by scanning a passport or ID. It’s up to the customer to...

1) only book a flight after receiving vaccine..

2) go to the relevant authority in their country to have their passport updated electronically so when it scanned... green for enter, red for no entry... EU law would need to temporarily change but that’s doable. Doctor provides a letter with serial number and barcode that’s verifiable and scannable as a backup... passport services in each country update passports ...auto emailing passport holder when done.

3). Airlines are by law asking for your passport number and have IT software in place to recognize if you’ve been vaccinated. If not, you won’t be able to complete the transaction...no flight, no travel unless vaccinated and in the system.

4). Any falsification will lead to criminal prosecution.

Capt'n Midnight · 04-12-2020 9:44pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

There's no evidence the vaccine does either. If the bloody disease is so new that we don't really know what it does, how could we possibly know what the even newer vaccine developed at break neck speed to counteract it does?

The answer is simply we don't.

You want to avoid one perceived risk by submitting everyone, including yourself, to a measurable greater one. That is not rational. Or fair.

We know the vaccine doesn't kill one person in a thousand. We know Covid-19 is still spreading so the one in a thousand figure is only the beginning.

We know the vaccine wasn't developed at breakneck speed. There were candidate vaccines in the first weeks thanks to earlier work on similar ones, but testing takes time and big numbers.

So far all you are doing is spreading FUD. ( Fear Uncertainty Doubt. )

And doing it in the face of hard facts.

ancapailldorcha · 04-12-2020 9:45pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

There's no evidence the vaccine does either. If the bloody disease is so new that we don't really know what it does, how could we possibly know what the even newer vaccine developed at break neck speed to counteract it does?

The answer is simply we don't.

This is just more anti-vaxx nonsense.

CramCycle · 04-12-2020 9:49pm

circadian wrote: »

Personally I don't mind the idea of removing fluoride from the water but that's purely on the belief that proper brushing etc should provide you with enough in this day and age.

However, the concept of removing fluoride certainly attracts the conspiracy crowd and approaching the topic politically would require a very, very clear message that its not to do with mind control or some other bollocks.

Same here, I was very pro flouridation back before I was born when brushing and economics were a bigger factor. I don't see any danger in it being left in the water either but its a medication and technically should be dose dependent but in reality, I would ignore it for the simple reason my crazy cousins will take it as confirmation that they were trying mind control and SF saved them.

dxhound2005 · 04-12-2020 10:36pm

The first supplies have arrived in the North. It says something about the state of the world that they are being stored at a secret location, to keep the protestors from finding out. Then again there were riots in England when the smallpox vaccine was launched, so nothing new under the sun.

shameless liberal · 04-12-2020 11:20pm

I sincerely hope that the HSE and EU are hiring excellent science and public health communicators to stave off the predictable arguments that will come from the right-wing anti-vax crew.

Again, I think that most people who are hesitant to say they'll accept a vaccine are just perhaps understandably not science or stats-literate and they've heard the usual nonsense arguments from the anti-vax corner just enough that they're perplexed about what is the best choice for them and their family.

It will take a masterful communication strategy to stave off this anti-vax crew such that the covid+ reservoir is small enough that the temporary immunity conferred by this vaccine is meaningful/sufficient to bring society back to normal.

Strumms · 04-12-2020 11:26pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The first supplies have arrived in the North. It says something about the state of the world that they are being stored at a secret location, to keep the protestors from finding out. Then again there were riots in England when the smallpox vaccine was launched, so nothing new under the sun.

They’ll need to be stored at a certain ultra low temperature I’m reading.

They need to be stored in freezers.. that are temp controlled...

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1204/1182350-hse-covid-vaccine/

The HSE ones ^^^

I’d imagine the location is very secure, as in if I’m a responsible person in the government there are army personnel stationed to protect them..

ancapailldorcha · 04-12-2020 11:27pm

Those are -80 freezers. Going to be interesting to see how they manage the logistics of this.

CramCycle · 04-12-2020 11:34pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Those are -80 freezers. Going to be interesting to see how they manage the logistics of this.

I'm presuming on dry ice around the country with daily delivery roll outs, presumably hospitals will have a few -80s that they will have to empty out samples of.

I don't envy the logistics team, the H&S alone will be a nightmare.

shameless liberal · 04-12-2020 11:37pm

CramCycle wrote: »

I'm presuming on dry ice around the country with daily delivery roll outs, presumably hospitals will have a few -80s that they will have to empty out samples of.

I don't envy the logistics team, the H&S alone will be a nightmare.

Not all hospitals would have a minus 80 as standard unless dealing with cryopreservation of stem cells etc (limited only to big university hospitals for the most part).

And to guarantee cold chain at minus 80, dry ice is an idea, but any leak etc and you're snookered.

My money is on people having to travel to large vaccination centres to be vaccinated, or else maybe they have a mobile unit with a mobile minus 80 that might do area by area. Though admittedly re logistics in terms of delivery to the population I'm talking out of my arse.

Strumms · 04-12-2020 11:41pm

CramCycle wrote: »

I'm presuming on dry ice around the country with daily delivery roll outs, presumably hospitals will have a few -80s that they will have to empty out samples of.

I don't envy the logistics team, the H&S alone will be a nightmare.

Possibly. But certain specialist delivery / logistics companies here have access to temperature controlled vehicles, trucks as well as vans, as well as temperature controlled containers which they can place on non temp controlled vehicles.

The pharma industry here is big... so the appropriate transport infrastructure is there...

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20160724_190322.jpg.opt895x503o0%2C0s895x503.jpg

ancapailldorcha · 04-12-2020 11:43pm

CramCycle wrote: »

I'm presuming on dry ice around the country with daily delivery roll outs, presumably hospitals will have a few -80s that they will have to empty out samples of.

I don't envy the logistics team, the H&S alone will be a nightmare.

My thoughts as well but I don't know how that's going to work with temperature control, ie how strict must the -80 requirement be adhered to and if it's strict as seems likely then boxes of dry ice might not be suitable. I'm certainly no expert however.

shameless liberal wrote: »

Not all hospitals would have a minus 80 as standard unless dealing with cryopreservation of stem cells etc (limited only to big university hospitals for the most part).

And to guarantee cold chain at minus 80, dry ice is an idea, but any leak etc and you're snookered.

My money is on people having to travel to large vaccination centres to be vaccinated, or else maybe they have a mobile unit with a mobile minus 80 that might do area by area. Though admittedly re logistics in terms of delivery to the population I'm talking out of my arse.

That'd be my experience as well but rural areas are going be a serious challenge then so. Maybe regional centres, clinics and so on could be loaned freezers or something and have them couriered in by dry ice?

shameless liberal · 04-12-2020 11:48pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

My thoughts as well but I don't know how that's going to work with temperature control, ie how strict must the -80 requirement be adhered to and if it's strict as seems likely then boxes of dry ice might not be suitable. I'm certainly no expert however.

That'd be my experience as well but rural areas are going be a serious challenge then so. Maybe regional centres, clinics and so on could be loaned freezers or something and have them couriered in by dry ice?

Not sure what the longevity of the -80 degree one is say at -20 (usual freezer temp). Also, I can't find the figure now, but I saw we purchased something like 13 million vaccine doses (for 6.5M people) in advance across a bunch of vendors. I guess it depends the order they come in but hopefully the one that requires -80 won't be among the first lot anyways!

Yeah, rural areas will be the challenge. Although, rural people have always suffered long commutes to access healthcare. Like folks in Donegal trekking to Derry for radiation, folks from Kerry trekking to CUH or Limerick for cardiac procedures etc. And herding folks into a bus for obvious reasons won't be a good idea in a pandemic. Very much looking forward to seeing how they do it!

ancapailldorcha · 05-12-2020 12:09am

The Oxford/AstraZenica vaccine doesn't have this problem as far as I know but it's the Pfizer/BioNTech one the UK has approved so we'll see I suppose.

Capt'n Midnight · 05-12-2020 1:38am

shameless liberal wrote: »

Not sure what the longevity of the -80 degree one is say at -20 (usual freezer temp).

Six months at -70c in a fridge
10 days in a special box to deliver to vaccination centres
And another 5 days in a fridge between 2c and 8c.

And we live in a world where overnight and just in time delivery is a thing.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54889084

Pfizer has developed a special transport box the size of a suitcase, packed with dry ice and installed with GPS trackers. Each reusable box can keep up to 5,000 doses of the vaccine at the right temperature for 10 days, if it remains unopened.
...
The vaccine can survive for a further five days once thawed, Pfizer has said, but this does not buy a great deal of extra time.

EDIT stretch that 10 days in a box to 30 days.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2261805-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine/

But Pfizer has invented a distribution container that keeps the vaccine at that temperature for 10 days if unopened. These containers can also be used for temporary storage in a vaccination facility for up to 30 days as long as they are replenished with dry ice every five days.

CramCycle · 05-12-2020 1:41am

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I have a basic understanding of statistics, i'm not a statistician, but you don't need to be a statistician to see that it would be very easy for a trial of 30,000 to miss a 1/30,000 occurrence - it could quite easily miss a 1/10,000 occurrence.

This isn't how statistical analysis works, if it were, every person alive would have to be tested. Stats work on the probability and as said before, after a certain number, it's as likely as it's going to be. I realise it's counter intuitive but it's true. I know the number at the minute is north of 30000, worldwide, to be confident you are as close to 100% as possible of catching everything but those 1 in a million events, I think the figure would be around the 40000 mark. Within a population like the US, 3000 would be sufficient, somewhere like Ireland, 1000 would be loads. Now there are far more intracacies here that would bore the sh1t out of most of us, so these are back of the envelope calculations. At this point, it's phase 4 surveillance, and that's that, if there are issues outside immediate reactions, there is certainly no sign of them many months later

If we're talking about a global roll out, i wouldn't say 1/10,000 is incredibly rare, or even 1/30,000.

Again, not how stats work

sbsquarepants wrote: »

There's no evidence the vaccine does either. If the bloody disease is so new that we don't really know what it does, how could we possibly know what the even newer vaccine developed at break neck speed to counteract it does?
The answer is simply we don't.

The disease does loads that isn't death which is what concerns me, plenty of case studies showing cases with lung damage and other nasty surprises but the news only focuses on deaths.

shameless liberal wrote: »

.

My money is on people having to travel to large vaccination centres to be vaccinated, or else maybe they have a mobile unit with a mobile minus 80 that might do area by area. Though admittedly re logistics in terms of delivery to the population I'm talking out of my arse.

Clinics are the simplest logistically, but some of the first groups might struggle getting there and the risk in getting there. Keeping the Pfizer vaccine for healthcare workers, and my understanding is it doesn't have to be -80 to the point of delivery, so you can stock local fridges/freezers and restock as they empty from centralised -80s. Save the more stable vaccines for care home delivery, and the middle ground ones for local health centres.

Igotadose · 05-12-2020 9:28am

shameless liberal wrote: »

I sincerely hope that the HSE and EU are hiring excellent science and public health communicators to stave off the predictable arguments that will come from the right-wing anti-vax crew.

Anti-vax isn't a right-wing thing here in Ireland or elsewhere. The anti-vaxxers I know in Ireland are greenies by and large, and view themselves as left-wing.

As for expectations on the HSE, expect the worst they usually don't disappoint. At some key juncture, I expect they'll screw up something important.

Das Reich · 05-12-2020 9:55am

Igotadose wrote: »

Anti-vax isn't a right-wing thing here in Ireland or elsewhere. The anti-vaxxers I know in Ireland are greenies by and large, and view themselves as left-wing.

As for expectations on the HSE, expect the worst they usually don't disappoint. At some key juncture, I expect they'll screw up something important.

You are right the closest person I know that is anti vaccine is my mother and she is very left wing.

Seth Brundle · 05-12-2020 10:04am

Igotadose wrote: »

Anti-vax isn't a right-wing thing here in Ireland or elsewhere. The anti-vaxxers I know in Ireland are greenies by and large, and view themselves as left-wing.

What's a greenie? Green party supporter?

ancapailldorcha · 05-12-2020 10:17am

Igotadose wrote: »

Anti-vax isn't a right-wing thing here in Ireland or elsewhere. The anti-vaxxers I know in Ireland are greenies by and large, and view themselves as left-wing.

As for expectations on the HSE, expect the worst they usually don't disappoint. At some key juncture, I expect they'll screw up something important.

It's usually a right wing thing but not always. Italy's Five Star Movement is another example.

Igotadose · 05-12-2020 10:50am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

What's a greenie? Green party supporter?

Correct.

Igotadose · 05-12-2020 10:53am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's usually a right wing thing but not always. Italy's Five Star Movement is another example.

The longer I hang around anti-anti-vaxxer fora and anti-CT fora, the less I like that word 'usually.'

My experiences in Ireland and the US were that the anti-vaxxers I knew were almost exclusively 'left wing' (in Ireland) or 'left of center' in the US (so, moderate-to-right wing for Ireland.)

The extreme anti-vax wingnuts like you see here on Boards or FB do tend to be right-wing (for ireland) and prone to spouting CT.

I think the anti-maskers are right wing and the anti-vaxxers in Ireland have tied up with them. I believe they'll regret that relationship, lay down with dogs get up with fleas and all that.

Capt'n Midnight · 05-12-2020 12:07pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I have a basic understanding of statistics, i'm not a statistician, but you don't need to be a statistician to see that it would be very easy for a trial of 30,000 to miss a 1/30,000 occurrence - it could quite easily miss a 1/10,000 occurrence.

You seem to have missed the bit where 1/1000* people in the USA will have died of Covid-19 during Trump's presidency.

The only reason to rearrange the deckchairs on the Titanic is if you want to delay people getting to the lifeboats. And the only reason I can think of doing that is a willingness to watch others die in a pathetic attempt to increase your own chances of survival. Which you aren't increasing because the people who didn't get to the lifeboats will pull you under when you enter the water.

*Infections are running at 200,000 a day so there will be a lot of deaths even if the US were to impose a total lockdown.

Also only a small fraction of the US population have been exposed so far so death toll could end up being multiples of this.

martingriff · 06-12-2020 5:09pm

Dr. Greenthumb wrote: »

I don't think that's debatable really, the longer people live, the higher the demographic over say 80 the more susceptible they will be to all causes of death be it flu, cardiac arrest etc. and now covid.

Of course we should protect them but I don't think mandating vaccinations for everyone to protect the elder demographic is as reasonable as you think. Is no one allowed to die from covid?

I see people saying 1 death is too much which is ridiculous, we don't shut down for the flu season each year.

I understand you position, it's what make the subject so difficult as it's personal for so many as we all have elderly relatives.

I never said mandatory if you don't want to do it then so be it. Also you do know it is not just the elderly that is at risk there is also those with underlying conditions so as those who can not get vacinated. Anyone can die from anything not just elderly

What do you mean is someone allowed to doe from covid.

Excuse me for my late response

Seth Brundle · 06-12-2020 5:17pm

Couple of news articles today related to the anti-vaccine nonsense...

Ryan Tubridy accused of 'using Toy Show children' to promote Pfizer
Anti-vaccine activists and conspiracy theorists have rounded on RTÉ star Ryan Tubridy by submitting official complaints accusing him of "using children" to promote the Covid-19 vaccine on last month's Late Late Toy Show.

https://www.independent.ie/news/ryan-tubridy-accused-of-using-toy-show-children-to-promote-pfizer-39830403.html

Black Panther actress leaves social media after sharing 'anti-vax' video
Black Panther actress Letitia Wright appears to have deleted her social media accounts after sharing a video that suggested a COVID-19 vaccine would "make extra limbs grow".

https://news.sky.com/story/black-panther-actress-letitia-wright-leaves-social-media-after-sharing-anti-vax-video-12152951

Capt'n Midnight · 06-12-2020 5:33pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Couple of news articles today related to the anti-vaccine nonsense...
...
https://news.sky.com/story/black-panther-actress-letitia-wright-leaves-social-media-after-sharing-anti-vax-video-12152951

Black Panther actress leaves social media after sharing 'anti-vax' video
Black Panther actress Letitia Wright appears to have deleted her social media accounts after sharing a video that suggested a COVID-19 vaccine would "make extra limbs grow".

To be forewarned is to be four armed ?

Seth Brundle · 08-12-2020 12:57pm

https://twitter.com/ConMend/status/1336249743182327808

(Don't know who Margaret Keenan is?)

bocaman · 08-12-2020 1:14pm

Any anti-vaxxers I've encountered in Ireland are far right wing nuts. Personally I consider them rather selfish individuals.

Anti-vaxxers

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