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What is an Architectural Technician?

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    Chris Arch wrote: »
    I am wondering what are the limits and why are there any limits...

    Do look into it and let us know .


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,002 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Chris Arch wrote: »
    Hi Mellor,

    It seems that this applies only for the State of Ontario not Canada in general. I am wondering what are the limits and why are there any limits...
    I seen that once I found it on Google (the name is a bit blatent), but felt i should stick it up anyway.

    It would be useful to know the differences as Canada is an option being explored my many in these times.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,046 ✭✭✭archtech


    CIAT have produced a video of what a Chartered Architectural Technologist can offer the public .

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP7yH25cgXU


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24 celticgooner


    4 nice vids there Thanks Archtech. Its good to see CIAT are getting out there and trying to get better known by the public.People always ask me whats an Arch Tech. Where do you think the video's will be shown?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭No6


    They are there on youtube, you can link them to your facebook, your website if you have one, download them and put them on a disk to give to clients etc etc!! I have to say they are very good and very slick, theres Irish lads on them too so its not just UK people.:D


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  • Registered Users Posts: 39,002 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    No6 wrote: »
    They are there on youtube, you can link them to your facebook, your website if you have one, download them and put them on a disk to give to clients etc etc!! I have to say they are very good and very slick, theres Irish lads on them too so its not just UK people.:D

    Hmm, anyone we know ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭No6


    Theres Eddie from Belfast and another lad from the that I don't know yet!!!:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40 Information Seeker


    onq wrote: »
    Syd,

    This is exactly what I feared and I have to say the old hand you know echos my own understanding of how it should be - an architect must also be a technician. I always took this to mean that in a small practice an architect should be able to carry out all the work, and as the practice grows, take on a technician for the detailed technical work and perhaps a draughtmans for the no less demanding but less technically orientated drawing duties. Technical co-ordination of information in a large office relies on the strengths of a technician.

    For me its not enough to know technology in general terms. I have acted as an expert witness many times and been put to the pin of my collar on detailing AND design and you cannot know one well without the other if you're going to stand up in court and call yourself an architect. You don;t carry all this aroudn in your head on every form of technology, you have to check and research before giving evidence, indeed before writing your Report, but you have to know enough to direct your attention where its needed and evaluate the information to discover at an expert level.

    The mutual respect gets lost when you get design-minded architects who cannot detail, lording it over competent technician who not only can detail rings around them but can also organise better, work to deadlines better and genrally show a professional pair of heels to the design-led architects. The nonsense stops when matters go legal and you end up justifying your designs in court, or for example today when the framework within which the work has to be carried out becomes so constrained as to materially affect the design.

    In such cases the architect or technician who doesn't know his contract, planning, health and safety and building regulation law is at a huge disadvantage and cannot provide a competent service to his client. Of the cour categories named, only building regulations relate directly to the technical information. There are vast legal mindfields wating to be traversed by those involved in planning, contract and health and safety issues.

    One challenge for both disciplines going forward is to try and address and if necessary slow down the flood of new directives from Brussels long enough for practitioners to get to grips with what's current and prepare for what's coming. We urgently need integrated building standards we can agree on together with proven details, to take the opinions out of built work and give fit-for-purpose compliant products to procurers and users.

    Enough from me and thanks once again for an informative and provocative post. Last year I spoke to an architect I know in the RIAI who bemoaned the undermining of the profession in Britain. Now I know what he meant.

    :)

    ONQ.

    This is one of the best written posts in here for me. I am not working in architecture, but I have worked as a technician and I can relate to a lot of what is being said.


  • Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭Chris Arch


    I honestly think that the difference between an architect and a technologist as per the CIAT definition does not exist if we widen the architectural profession to Europe and beyond.

    My understanding is that an architect as per EU legislation must have construction and technological knowledge and that the technologist as per CIAT definition must have artistic skills as well as the architect.

    The main difference may be that there is a fair assessment for self-taught to continue practicing as architectural technologists... When assessments to practice as architects are biased and unaffordable.


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,957 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Chris Arch wrote: »
    The main difference may be that there is a fair assessment for self-taught to continue practicing as architectural technologists... When assessments to practice as architects are biased and unaffordable.

    on this we would disagree....

    architectural technology as a profession should not be a de facto fall back to "self taught" architects who dont "make the grade" to register as architects.Its a profession in its own rights, and as i outlined before, it is only on the higher scale projects does this differentiation become more clear.... at domestic or small scale commercial /industrial the duties and capabilities are shared. However at larger scale the requirement for a technologist as the 'organiser and communicator' is more prevalent.

    It is obvious that a lot of the above group would áctually be well on the way towards calling themselves technicians, but short of having an architectural technology qualification, the only way to profess their abilities is to join CIAT at TCIAT or MCIAT level.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 597 ✭✭✭Supertech


    I agree totally Syd. One of the problems with the effective omission of the titles Architectural Technician and Architectural Technologist from the Building Control Act (other the permittance of their use) is that this is what is likely to happen in some cases. Furthermore without a definition of the role of the AT which is accepted by all involved, the confusion surrounding what is that we do will remain.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,002 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    There are many "self taught architects" that have a wide knowledge base and adequete technical knowledge to fall back into the role of Arch tech, and would rightly pass through the MCIAT process.

    But there are many without any actual technical knowledge, but that, for some reason, are of the opinion that they are more than qualified for be an arch tech. For example of this was somebody who completed 3 years of architecture and recieved a dipolma of some sort, but failed twice final years. "I suppose i'll just be a technician" was the attitude.

    I'm expecting a lot of under-qualified people to try and jump on the CIAT bandwagon, and to be honest its most likely already started


  • Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭Chris Arch


    Mellor wrote: »
    There are many "self taught architects" that have a wide knowledge base and adequete technical knowledge to fall back into the role of Arch tech, and would rightly pass through the MCIAT process.

    But there are many without any actual technical knowledge, but that, for some reason, are of the opinion that they are more than qualified for be an arch tech. For example of this was somebody who completed 3 years of architecture and recieved a dipolma of some sort, but failed twice final years. "I suppose i'll just be a technician" was the attitude.

    I'm expecting a lot of under-qualified people to try and jump on the CIAT bandwagon, and to be honest its most likely already started

    What do you mean by under-qualified? There is a natural progression within the CIAT. The final achievement is MCIAT, this is a qualification, an exam is necessary to get there.

    I think that a similar system should be in place for architects at the same cost.


  • Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭Chris Arch


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    on this we would disagree....

    architectural technology as a profession should not be a de facto fall back to "self taught" architects who dont "make the grade" to register as architects.Its a profession in its own rights, and as i outlined before, it is only on the higher scale projects does this differentiation become more clear.... at domestic or small scale commercial /industrial the duties and capabilities are shared. However at larger scale the requirement for a technologist as the 'organiser and communicator' is more prevalent.

    It is obvious that a lot of the above group would áctually be well on the way towards calling themselves technicians, but short of having an architectural technology qualification, the only way to profess their abilities is to join CIAT at TCIAT or MCIAT level.

    I approve all or most of what CIAT is doing, but regarding the 2 professions issues in Europ, there is only Ireland and the UK where this theory is enforced. In Denmark and Sweden, architectural technologists are recognized, but I am not aware of the dissociation of tasks between the 2 professions in these countries. In the rest of Europe, France, Germany, The Netherlands and farer, technologists and CIAT members are not recognized and sometimes not authorized to practice. Registered architects and engineers are doing the part of the works that is attributed to technologists in the UK and Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 597 ✭✭✭Supertech


    The AT profession in this country was developed by the RIAI in conjunction with the OPW. This lead to the establishment of the DIT course, and then other courses followed in Waterford, Carlow, Cork, Limerick etc. The issue is that while there are many courses educating AT's in this country, there is no defined professional context for what graduates from these courses are competent to do on completion of their education, nor is there an 'officially' recognised regulatory body to govern the affairs of the professional AT in practice. While both CIAT and RIAI might claim to be that body, neither has been officially ordained by Government, and in the absence of this happening confusion reigns.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,002 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Chris Arch wrote: »
    What do you mean by under-qualified? There is a natural progression within the CIAT. The final achievement is MCIAT, this is a qualification, an exam is necessary to get there.

    I think that a similar system should be in place for architects at the same cost.
    By under qualified I mean exactly that. Persons who have been previously using the title architect who lacked the knowledge to fufill the role. There were many dodgy designers in Ireland before the BAC came into force.

    Seeing as these can use the title Architectural Technologist, I imagine some will. They might also use CIAT as a tool to give weight to there status. Where they would appear as profile members (or associate members if elsewhere employed) on the official list/check a member feature.

    Obviously these won't be able to progress to MCIAT, but the association is there.



    I know of one such person, who invented his own organisation to give weight to his "business"


  • Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭Chris Arch


    Mellor wrote: »
    By under qualified I mean exactly that. Persons who have been previously using the title architect who lacked the knowledge to fufill the role. There were many dodgy designers in Ireland before the BAC came into force.


    You seem not to be aware that many are good architects who have the knowledge but lack the finance. You also forget to note that the RIAI is in total conflict of interest with its role for assessing self-taught architects because it represents and defends the interests of architectural education. The assessment that they set up is not about what you know but where you studied and how much you paid for it...

    Mellor wrote: »
    Seeing as these can use the title Architectural Technologist, I imagine some will. They might also use CIAT as a tool to give weight to there status. Where they would appear as profile members (or associate members if elsewhere employed) on the official list/check a member feature.
    Obviously these won't be able to progress to MCIAT, but the association is there."


    Mellor you are completely wrong here. Being a profile member of CIAT does not bring any privilege, it is only a first assessment towards becoming MCIAT. What you do not say is that at least, profile members are requested to have a PI Insurance and this is checked by CIAT. If the RIAI had organised a similar system in Ireland, at least all professionals selling architectural services would be insured. Don't you think that this would be the best way to protect the public?

    Mellor wrote: »
    I know of one such person, who invented his own organisation to give weight to his "business"


    ????????


  • Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭Chris Arch


    Supertech wrote: »
    The AT profession in this country was developed by the RIAI in conjunction with the OPW. This lead to the establishment of the DIT course, and then other courses followed in Waterford, Carlow, Cork, Limerick etc. The issue is that while there are many courses educating AT's in this country, there is no defined professional context for what graduates from these courses are competent to do on completion of their education, nor is there an 'officially' recognised regulatory body to govern the affairs of the professional AT in practice. While both CIAT and RIAI might claim to be that body, neither has been officially ordained by Government, and in the absence of this happening confusion reigns.

    Supertech,

    I think that we are talking of 2 different professions here. On one side there is arch tech as defined by CIAT. This is a profession equal to architects and proposing similar services.

    On the other side there is the arch tech definition of the RIAI. This is a profession considered as second class to architects, it is permitted by the RIAI to deliver restricted services only.

    THe RIAI never defends the interests of arch tech when the CIAT does only that.


    If I can identify myself to the first group, I would never accept to be part of the second.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,002 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Chris Arch wrote: »


    You seem not to be aware that many are good architects who have the knowledge but lack the finance. You also forget to note that the RIAI is in total conflict of interest with its role for assessing self-taught architects because it represents and defends the interests of architectural education. The assessment that they set up is not about what you know but where you studied and how much you paid for it...


    Nowhere in any of my posts did I suggest that my comments applied to all self-taught architects. I clearly said some, this issue is not up for debate its well documented that various people have abuse the fact that the title previously wasn't protected.
    Mellor you are completely wrong here. Being a profile member of CIAT does not bring any privilege, it is only a first assessment towards becoming MCIAT. What you do not say is that at least, profile members are requested to have a PI Insurance and this is checked by CIAT.
    How does that make me wrong. There are of course legitimate profile members. But the opportunity exists for the title to be abused seeing as its not included in the BAC. You are most likely a profile member, and you are mistaken if you think my comments are aimed at you.
    I would of assumed that seeing as you working towards chartership that you'd be in favour of Arch Tech's inclusion
    ????????
    What's the confusion here?
    Was pretty clear I thought


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,957 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Architectural Technologist! – Is that some kind of Architect then?


    Architectural Technology first became mainstream in 1965, when, at the request of the RIBA to form an associated body for those that wished to specialise in the technical aspects of building design, it took fledgling steps into the world as the Society of Architectural and Associated Technicians (SAAT). But we didn’t leave it there, because 47 years later the ‘Society’ is now an ‘Institute’ and what’s more it has a Royal Charter. That’s progress, or rather it’s evolution.

    The Chartered Institute of Architectural Technologists (CIAT) has evolved into a highly respected profession; amongst those in the know. The biggest problem being that those ‘in the know’ do not constitute too great a proportion of those that live and breath within the construction industry, let alone the general public.

    To be fair, most Architects are aware, at least, of the title and profession. Although there still exists a ‘superior race’ mentality, particularly amongst middle aged and ‘old school’ architects who still like to think of ‘Technicians’ as ‘drawing board fodder (from when we had drawing boards of course) – there to carry out the whims of the project architect. Just draw that up boy!!

    Fortunately for the most part we can rest our hackles in the cupboard that used to store the tracing paper. Although, like tracing paper, they come out every now and again – usually to reside atop the monitor of the beleaguered Technologist, or is it Technician?

    Oh my, how complicated it can appear to the outside world. It’s no wonder they don’t know we are, because it stems largely from the fact that we don’t know who we.

    Having attained the title Chartered Architectural Technologist you have essentially reached the top of the tree, and like an architect your career prospects are governed by experience and the level of your abilities. But just take a peak under the sheets; there are Technician grades, Associate grades, Profile grades, Oh, and don’t forget the student’s grade and Honarary members.

    So when someone enquires ‘what do you do then?’ take a picture of their sheer incredulity when you try and explain that you are working towards becoming an Architectural Technologist, before they lose the will to live. “Oh I see is that some kind of ‘Architect’ then?” I dare you to start again. You should, but your audience may well have moved on.

    I have never studied as an Architect, but I have worked with a great many. For the most part they are quite human, although, as I have said, some still retain their old school’ aspirations that are generally above their modern day station. Sadly they are now clinging to the ledge that still supports the armchairs occupied by the doctors and lawyers. I say sadly because that’s an affectation that reaches us all.

    Fortunately for the profession, the young architects coming out of the ‘Architects’ sausage machine, are readily impregnated with an acknowledgement of their limitations, and seem happy to defer to those more experienced – Architect or Technologist.

    I gained my academic pieces of paper at the local Building College. As we were finishing one or two on the course looked into continuing on to train as Architects. Having visited the local ‘Poly’, they came back with stories that said all we had learned during the last four years would be discounted, and that they would ‘break us’ of ALL our technical training to start again as architects. Only one picked up that gauntlet and last I heard he was leading projects at a design firm, ironically started by an ‘Architectural Technician’ (back in the day).

    So how do you begin to explain the difference between ‘Architect’ and “Technologist’? – The Technologist will learn how to put together a building constituent piece by constituent piece, and take it all apart again and rebuild it in another way that achieves the same end. This may or may not be to an overall building design by the Technologist. Now it’s getting complicated. – The Architect has a more holistic approach, with an ‘Art’ base, as opposed to the technologist’s technical, or science base dealing largely in building physics. You can understand why people expire in front of you! Of course nothing to do with ‘Design’ is prescriptive, and some architects and technologists migrate towards the middle of the technical and art extremes; designing their buildings with a leg, or at least part of one, in each camp.

    Currently the rules of the Institute allow that a full chartered member may carry out, in full, the role historically attributable to an architect. We may design, administer and certify a building project in a manner that is recognised by the rest of the industry. Who knows, one day that may change. So full members can carry out the role of an architect, but please don’t ever use that name – it’s use is protected by law. But there again so is ‘Chartered Architectural Technologist’; as opposed to ‘Architectural Technologist’ which is not. Oops, there goes more confusion: The innate differences that promote the architectural technologist’s change of track on becoming chartered. Are you with me so far?

    The Technologist’s biggest problem is that ‘Architect’ is such a snappy title. It’s short and has a ready association in most peoples’ heads, and has a quarter of the syllables – which seems to be quite important.

    There has been three changes of title to the AT professional body, and there are those of us who started their careers, knowingly, as architects drawing board fodder, and through no fault of their own have been transformed into fully fledged ‘Chartered members’. No complaints. We’ve earned it. We haven’t trained academically for any where near that of an architect, but I would pit my knowledge gained through experience against that of any of them on comparable subjects.

    No architect bashing here, just an underline to the fact that Architectural Technologists do a very similar job to an architect, but often from a different starting point and in quite a different way. But we have two very heavy anchors that keep our ship in harbour: The first is that as long as we profess to be able to carry out the architects role, they will continue to keep their draw-bridge up, and their bat in the cupboard. Secondly, without a concerted campaign of enlightenment the man on the street and in the offices of the large institutions that insist on identifying specific professional roles, will continue to remain blissfully unaware that there are some very experienced and capable professionals out there that can resolve a multitude of design and construction issues.

    The whole profession needs a different approach. We cannot just keep doing the same things and expect that one day we will get a different outcome. Not going to happen! I am proud to be a Chartered Architectural Technologist, and long for the day when a complete stranger nods approvingly at my title, and doesn’t ask “Is that some kind of Architect then”.


    FROM HERE


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11 MDGAT


    While both CIAT and RIAI might claim to be that body, neither has been officially ordained by Government, and in the absence of this happening confusion reigns.

    Can anyone advise how we should proceed to have OUR profession finally recognised in this country. Can we find out how many '000 academically trained AT's there are? forget the opinion of RIAI members they have their representing body and good luck to them. I think it is about time WE organised ourselves and became 'ORDAINED' by Government. I would imagine now is a good time to organise, particularly with social media and the Elections in 2 years time.


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,957 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    MDGAT wrote: »
    While both CIAT and RIAI might claim to be that body, neither has been officially ordained by Government, and in the absence of this happening confusion reigns.

    Can anyone advise how we should proceed to have OUR profession finally recognised in this country. Can we find out how many '000 academically trained AT's there are? forget the opinion of RIAI members they have their representing body and good luck to them. I think it is about time WE organised ourselves and became 'ORDAINED' by Government. I would imagine now is a good time to organise, particularly with social media and the Elections in 2 years time.

    There should still be a database from the ATI days.

    Actually the Big mistake with ATI was their bias towards riai.
    Looks like a glaring error now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11 MDGAT


    Hi Syn,

    Ok...so how do I contact the ATI???

    I have experience of WIT and I have a family member currently doing his degree, I will make contact and see if I can get the contacts for the past members.

    I also know a couple of CIAT members who I could network with, I'm sure CIAT members would be in favour of a campaign to be recognised.

    I have found the CIAT to be very helpful and without doubt they are the best body currently promoting our profession. The also promote PI and CPD, which is most important going forward.

    Are there many AT's using Boards or similar? How can I canvas for interest...

    MDG


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    PM sent


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 144 ✭✭THE DON FANUCCI


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    to view a technicians competencies as dealing with drafting and coordination of informations is incorrect and misses out the fundemental aspect of a technicians education. He/she is a problem solver. The best projects are as a result of an architect pushing the boundaries of design and thus pushing the boundaries as to what is buildable. The architect designs, the technician makes buildable.... an equal and productive partnership.

    As i have mentioned before, on small projects it may acceptable that the one professional carries out both duties. There is a view that i would subscribe to that if one person is carrying out both duties, design and buildability, then neither skill is being pushed to its limit. The designer will find the design constrained by their own inherent limits in buildability. If the designer is not bound by these limits then the design can be pushed beyond the practical to the aspirational.

    I would put it to some of the 'old school' architects who consider all architects to be technicians that they are actually doing themselves a disservice. Their core skill should be in the production of designs that continually push the profession of architecture forward. The technicians core skill is in the area of problem resolution given a set array of parameters. The architect at design stage has less tangible constraints to work in and should exploit this freedom.


    Lads, who draws up the detailed builders drawings that I give my blocklayer as opposed to the planning permission sketches?


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,002 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Lads, who draws up the detailed builders drawings that I give my blocklayer as opposed to the planning permission sketches?
    An Architectural Technicain/Technologist is best suited for the reasons mentioned above.


    But Engineers and/or Architects may produce similar drawings at times


  • Registered Users Posts: 878 ✭✭✭A Law


    Probably a stupid question but is an architectural technician the best person to advise and help with getting planning permission?

    Have a green field site but not a great understanding of the process. From what ive read, I hire an arch tech, we come up with a broad plan for the house, have a pre planning meeting with the council and then draw up final plans from there before applying?

    Just want to make sure before I post in the looking for a tradesman thread.


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