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BER Technical thread

13567

Comments

  • #62
    dunie001
    Registered Users Posts: 179 ✭✭dunie001


    I know sinnerboy!!!

    I read the whole article with great interest before...

    In fact Lars Pettersson's company Scan Homes built the house!!!:D:D:D


  • #63
    Matt Simis
    Registered Users Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    topcatcbr wrote: »
    That was what i was told during training but when i started doing the assessments (During the HESS) and was imputting as you have suggested i got it clarified.

    In fact this was one of the first things to be pointed out that most assessors were getting wrong.


    So SEI clarified that simple rad valves are an acceptable method to disable your space heating in summer? I was told similar to Brian, more specifically that an Interlock is required (and the manual states even TRVs are not counted as interlocks, so neither would regular valves) and its bugging me.


  • #64
    topcatcbr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭topcatcbr


    Matt Simis wrote: »
    So SEI clarified that simple rad valves are an acceptable method to disable your space heating in summer? I was told similar to Brian, more specifically that an Interlock is required (and the manual states even TRVs are not counted as interlocks, so neither would regular valves) and its bugging me.

    Get your money back.

    The boiler interlock has nothing to do with secondry HW heating. This is relevant for heating controls and effeciency factor.


  • #65
    No6
    Registered Users Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭No6


    The standard of training seems to vary widely dosn't it, I've noticed from a number of posts a serious lack of consistancy across what trainers have told people undergoing the training. The national exam when it happens should be interesting.


  • #66
    brianmacl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭brianmacl


    No6 wrote: »
    The standard of training seems to vary widely dosn't it, I've noticed from a number of posts a serious lack of consistancy across what trainers have told people undergoing the training. The national exam when it happens should be interesting.


    I have a rule of thumb.... always cover your arse. My training was not great and I am worried about the possibility of getting sued, so.....

    Anything that I feel is open to interpritation I have mailed SEI about and requested clarification. Such as the additional electric hot water heating, electric or gas / elactric fire inserts, what is considered a circulation space when looking at draft lobby, what properties require a BER assessment (listed, stand alone and a definition of these), even how to calculate average room height in a house where there are loads of different types of ceiling including one that is similar to a parabaliod.

    Once they respond, I know that how I do things will be correct and if it is not then SEI are to blaim. There is only one problem, it takes way to long for SEI to respond.


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  • #67
    mcm09
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭mcm09


    Hi Brian,

    I have sent SEI a few queries regarding -

    What constitutes a blocked up fireplace ? and the proceedure inolved for assessing a 1.5 story property.

    So far I have had no replies. When (if) you get your replies would you mind publishing them here and I will do the same.

    I have similar concerns to you. Our advisory reports are advising people to spend significant amounts of money to upgrade their homes and an incorrect interpretation on a grey area could prove very costly.


  • #68
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,980 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    mcm09 wrote: »
    and the proceedure inolved for assessing a 1.5 story property.

    .

    what exactly is the problem here??
    the process is described adequately in the DEAP manual....


  • #69
    No6
    Registered Users Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭No6


    If you are a member of the berassoc theres a thread in the private forum for posting official SEI clarifications to questions, If you're not a member then why not!!!:D


  • #70
    mcm09
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭mcm09


    topcatcbr wrote: »
    You could be right but in my mind id put put less than 1.2 m high walls room in roof and higher would be second storey. Its not something iv had to deal with yet. why dont you seek clarification from sei.


    Just the issue we were discussing earlier on what exactly constitutes a room in roof.

    Just submitted an app to join the BER Assoc this morning, awaiting approval now.


  • #71
    brianmacl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭brianmacl


    No6 wrote: »
    If you are a member of the berassoc theres a thread in the private forum for posting official SEI clarifications to questions, If you're not a member then why not!!!:D


    what? where? when? who? how?:confused:

    I mean, what is berassoc? where do i find berassoc? and how can I join?:)


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  • #72
    topcatcbr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭topcatcbr


    brianmacl wrote: »
    what? where? when? who? how?:confused:

    I mean, what is berassoc? where do i find berassoc? and how can I join?:)

    Here
    http://www.berassoc.ie/


  • #73
    brianmacl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭brianmacl


    I was in a house today where the owner cramed 100mm deep of those S shaped foamy bits, that are used for pakaging tv's and other such thing into boxes, into the ceiling space.
    anyway what u value are they? I haven't seen them used as insulation before:confused:


  • #74
    brianmacl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭brianmacl


    I sent this question to SEI on 6th of the 1st

    Can you please give me a definition of a stand alone dwelling?

    Then clarified it on the 9th of Jan
    Stand alone properties under 50 sq m don't require BER certs, and some land lords are suggesting that their appartments don't need them as they are stand alone in so far as they are self sufficient (containing WC, WHB, Shower, kitchen and its own heating system), I have been told that this is not the case but would like to show them a mail from you stating this.

    and recieved this answer today:
    In relation to Question 3, we have consulted with the Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government on this issue. "Standalone" refers to detached buildings. In other words, apartments must have a BER cert even if they are smaller than 50m2.



    mcm09 wrote: »
    Hi Brian,

    I have sent SEI a few queries regarding -

    What constitutes a blocked up fireplace ? and the proceedure inolved for assessing a 1.5 story property.

    So far I have had no replies. When (if) you get your replies would you mind publishing them here and I will do the same.

    I have similar concerns to you. Our advisory reports are advising people to spend significant amounts of money to upgrade their homes and an incorrect interpretation on a grey area could prove very costly.


  • #75
    derickmc
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭derickmc


    I know this has been touched on earlier in the thread but the ‘room in roof’ option for existing dwellings just doesn’t add up for me.

    For example I put 50m2 in for the floor area of the room in roof in the dimensions tab. When I select the room in roof option under roofs in building elements it auto calculates the area as 113.51m2. (formula DEAP appendix S below table S5)

    I am assuming this general figure covers the part or roof insulated at joist level; at rafter level and the partition walls to the sides … is this a correct assumption?

    What I am confused about is if the property is mid terraced with an A roof then it is likely there will only be heat loss to 2 sides while a detached house will have heat loss to 4 sides. It seems this can’t be taken into account?

    If there is a significant portion of roof (small attic) over the ‘room in roof’ insulated with 300mm insulation there is no facility to input this. If the original construction is old you are stuck with a 2.3W/m2k u-value …

    Is my take on this correct??? It seems bananas to me !!!


  • #76
    BERarchtech
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭BERarchtech


    :confused:
    lottyprop wrote: »
    I am a qualified but as of yet unregistered BER assessor. I work in property management and initially my plan was to assess my own properties. .


    I didn't think you were allowed to assess your own properties?? is that not breaking the code of conduct? :confused:


  • #77
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    BERarchtech wrote: »
    :confused:


    I didn't think you were allowed to assess your own properties?? is that not breaking the code of conduct? :confused:

    One can assess one own properties - of course - just not issue BER Certs for them


  • #78
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    brianmacl wrote: »
    I was in a house today where the owner cramed 100mm deep of those S shaped foamy bits, that are used for pakaging tv's and other such thing into boxes, into the ceiling space.
    anyway what u value are they? I haven't seen them used as insulation before:confused:

    I spoke to a Limerick based insulation company ( the one whose name sounds like a chocolate bar ) . Now whilst I do recall seeing these used in the late seventies in fact they were never made for this purpose by this company ( they did make them for packaging only )

    They have no data on their lamda value - sure you can say the actual fabric of the curls have a value - but no formula to establish what 100mm layer of them equates to

    SEI should be consulted - I would imagine they would instruct to give it a nil value


  • #79
    derickmc
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭derickmc


    When I did the new dwellings course it was full of auctioneers all believing the would be allowed assess their own properties. Around October SEI moved the goal posts and told them they couldn't. There are a lot of very p'd off auctioneers out there after spending their money on the courses. Most have swapping agreements with other auctioneers in place.


    Anyone able to throw some light on my room in roof query a few posts back?


  • #80
    dunie001
    Registered Users Posts: 179 ✭✭dunie001


    OK, I've got some serious issuse with a house i'm trying to do a New Build BER Cert for...

    1.     there are two areas in the Ground Floor of the Dwelling that have ceiling heights up to the rafters (panelled with timber and insulated between rafters) and they are only one story , but all the other rooms have regular ceilings and are under another story (room in roof).

    Considering that DEAP has only one space for entering the Ground Floor area and one area for the room height, how on earth do I enter the other two rooms without putting them under second/third story space. Do I just ignore those areas or can I do a weighted average room height using the floor areas?

    2. The room in roof has walls from the main Dwelling extending into the First floor to boost the room height in Dormer. However this obviously creates a problem when working out the roof u-value i.e. the "room in roof" only really starts from 0.8m off the first floor, so what do I enter for the average room height for the "room in roof" section????


    Also does any Assessor here really bother working out the U-value for every part of the Dormer windows (New Builds)???? I can't even get an Architect to give me a proper Specification for them...so how can I work out the U-value if I don't have a proper specification.


  • #81
    dunie001
    Registered Users Posts: 179 ✭✭dunie001


    No6 wrote: »
    If you are a member of the berassoc theres a thread in the private forum for posting official SEI clarifications to questions, If you're not a member then why not!!!:D


    Because you have to pay to join....this forum is free!


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  • #82
    derickmc
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭derickmc


    dunie001 wrote: »

    2. The room in roof has walls from the main Dwelling extending into the First floor to boost the room height in Dormer. However this obviously creates a problem when working out the roof u-value i.e. the "room in roof" only really starts from 0.8m off the first floor, so what do I enter for the average room height for the "room in roof" section????

    If this is a new dwelling there isn't a room in roof option in DEAP. If it was an existing dwelling I wouldn't consider it a room in roof. The room in roof is to cater for the partition walls into an the unheated areas that separate the room in roof from the attic areas to the sides. If the main walls extend up 0.8m then you don’t have these areas. Just measure the attic over the room in roof and input it as a roof area insulated at joists. In put separate roof areas for the portions of the roof that is slanting, these would be insulated at rafter level. That would be my understanding anyway and I think there is some agreement with it earlier in this thread.


    Still looking for comments on my room in roof query too. Tried emailing my training providers with the same query but they seem to be keeping their council too..

    Anyone …


  • #83
    brianmacl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭brianmacl


    sinnerboy wrote: »

    SEI should be consulted - I would imagine they would instruct to give it a nil value
    I emailed them but am not very hopeful of a reply anytime soon
    I have mailed them several questions and got almost nowhere on anything but the most basic questions. For instance I sent them rough drawings and asked for a definition to circulation space with respect to draft lobby. they haven't got back to me. I asked over two months ago about a clarification on listed dwellings, they have “escalated" this query but don't have an answer yet.

    I currently have 4 BER Assessments in my pending box but don't know when I will be able to issue them because I am waiting for SEI to answer queries.
    I said I would post replies i got from SEI incase anyone had similar questions:
    A while ago I sent them this mail

    Dear Sir / Madam
    I would like clarification on when it is appropriate to choose yes in "Water Heating", "Is there supplementary electric water heating used in summer?"
    If the radiators can be turned of during the summer using a thermostat?
    If the radiators can be turned of during the summer using individual valves at each rad?
    If the radiators and hot water cylinder are controlled by two separate thermostats?
    Regards

    and got this response;

    Hello Brian,

    Thank you for your e-mail

    Please not the following cases where "yes" should be selected for "Is supplementary electric immersion heating used in summer?”

    Case A:
    Where the main water heating system is incapable of providing hot water without space heating e.g. manual solid fuel room heater with back boiler.
    • Under water heating tab “supplementary water heating in summer” set to yes
    • Secondary water heating fuel type = electricity

    Case B:
    Where there is a heat pump with an immersion:
    • Supplementary immersion used in summer set to “no”
    • Secondary water heating fuel type set to none
    • Efficiency of main water heater set to result of equation G1 in the DEAP manual, appendix G. This accounts for the immersion.
    • Main water heater fuel type is electricity


  • #84
    wall2wall
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15 ✭wall2wall


    I had the same problem waiting on SEI to reply just after christmas and to this day I haven't received a reply even after it had been escalated on two occassions. I went back to the company that provided the training and they had an email address to send queires to, got a reply in 48 hours.


  • #85
    dahayeser
    Registered Users Posts: 155 ✭✭dahayeser


    topcatcbr wrote: »
    My understanding of this is a system which cannot provide hot water only has an emersion as secondry hw heating. That means primary heating by means of an open fire or stove with backboiler will have an emmersion shown. all other systems will not. The point made to me when i asked this was with all other systems the rads can be turned off by the valves which would mean the boiler was then capable of providing hot water only wthout providing backround heat in the summer. backboilers are not capable of this.

    There does not need to be any zoning or sofisticated boiler controls or even an isolating valve.


    I emailed a few questions to my training provider and though I would have had the same understanding of the electric immersion issue at topcatcbr post quoted above I said I would add it to my list of questions anyway ..

    The response is below indicates that a boiler system with radiators that can be manually be turned off isn't sufficient to disregard the immersion.


    ****************

    The following systems should have supplementary immersion during summer as "yes"

    1. Radiators all can be turned off individually without any other means of separating them from water heating
    2. Solid fuel stove with hot water from the back boiler.
    3. Boiler with just a single time clock.


    *************


  • #86
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    dahayeser wrote: »
    I emailed a few questions to my training provider and though I would have had the same understanding of the electric immersion issue at topcatcbr post quoted above I said I would add it to my list of questions anyway ..

    The response is below indicates that a boiler system with radiators that can be manually be turned off isn't sufficient to disregard the immersion.


    ****************

    The following systems should have supplementary immersion during summer as "yes"

    1. Radiators all can be turned off individually without any other means of separating them from water heating
    2. Solid fuel stove with hot water from the back boiler.
    3. Boiler with just a single time clock.


    *************

    I retract what I said here

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58742453&postcount=49

    I have seen this SEI clarification too since making that post

    Now I do have a difficulty with accepting it , not lease that it directly conflicts with what I was instructed in training . It does not follow that if someone turns off all rads , even manually one by one , that they will run up a big ESB bill by using the immersion

    BUT - BUT - SEI / DEAP says they will .

    So if turning off rads is the way a person gets hot water only - you must answer "Yes" to the DEAP query about supplementary immersion


  • #87
    dahayeser
    Registered Users Posts: 155 ✭✭dahayeser


    1) I surveyed a house recently and it had an open plan living room / kitchen. It also had the stairs in this room so there was no defined area to the living area - it led straight up stairs in to the first floor hall ! I am wondering what constitutes the living room area in this case ?

    2) Another house I surveyed had a modern extension and the whole house was renovated while this renovation was taking place including floors insulated and walls dry lined. The owner is offering to provide me with the renovation plans from the building contractor. I would assume if I had the plans and a letter from the building contractors confirming that all renovations were carried out as per plans that would be sufficient evidence?

    I know this is one for SEI but I am already waiting weeks for replies on other queries.


  • #88
    engrish?
    Registered Users Posts: 911 ✭✭✭engrish?


    When the gas boiler is in behind the gas fire inset, how to you input it into the DEAP software?

    My first two properties to do both have this type of boiler, one was very old and one was quite new!

    Thanks


  • #89
    topcatcbr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭topcatcbr


    dahayeser wrote: »
    I emailed a few questions to my training provider and though I would have had the same understanding of the electric immersion issue at topcatcbr post quoted above I said I would add it to my list of questions anyway ..

    The response is below indicates that a boiler system with radiators that can be manually be turned off isn't sufficient to disregard the immersion.


    ****************

    The following systems should have supplementary immersion during summer as "yes"

    1. Radiators all can be turned off individually without any other means of separating them from water heating
    2. Solid fuel stove with hot water from the back boiler.
    3. Boiler with just a single time clock.


    *************

    Yes I seen this also and this totaly contradicts the instruction given by SEI during the HESS training course and contact made by them subsequently stating that I and others was doing it incorrectly when doing assesments for the HESS.

    Sometimes i think SEI are making it up as they go along.

    I think i will email them myself and seek clarification. Not that I dont believe you but it goes against clarification i got earlier.


  • #90
    topcatcbr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭topcatcbr


    Email Sent

    Ill post their reply


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  • #91
    dahayeser
    Registered Users Posts: 155 ✭✭dahayeser


    topcatcbr wrote: »
    Yes I seen this also and this totaly contradicts the instruction given by SEI during the HESS training course and contact made by them subsequently stating that I and others was doing it incorrectly when doing assesments for the HESS.

    Sometimes i think SEI are making it up as they go along.

    I think i will email them myself and seek clarification. Not that I dont believe you but it goes against clarification i got earlier.

    Cool, it goes against what i was originaly told in training too, it also goes against logic! What I got came in writing from a training company the fact that they were willing to do that leads me to believe it is a direct copy of something they got from SEI. Still certainally no harm to get SEI's official word on it.


    hayeser wrote: »
    1) I surveyed a house recently and it had an open plan living room / kitchen. It also had the stairs in this room so there was no defined area to the living area - it led straight up stairs in to the first floor hall ! I am wondering what constitutes the living room area in this case ?

    2) Another house I surveyed had a modern extension and the whole house was renovated while this renovation was taking place including floors insulated and walls dry lined. The owner is offering to provide me with the renovation plans from the building contractor. I would assume if I had the plans and a letter from the building contractors confirming that all renovations were carried out as per plans that would be sufficient evidence?

    Anyone able to give an opinion on these... Thanks.


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