Window not meeting fire regulations

mel.b · 17-07-2019 1:40pm #1

I'm in the process of selling my house and the buyers have had a survey done and apparently the velux windows in one of the bedrooms does not meet fire regulations. Frustratingly this was not picked up when I had the survey done when I purchased the house. The buyers have suggested an amount they believe is needed to fix the problem. However I would like to get my own price - who is the best person to consult regarding this - a builder, window installer etc?

ted1 · 17-07-2019 1:41pm

mel.b wrote: »

I'm in the process of selling my house and the buyers have had a survey done and apparently the velux windows in one of the bedrooms does not meet fire regulations. Frustratingly this was not picked up when I had the survey done when I purchased the house. The buyers have suggested an amount they believe is needed to fix the problem. However I would like to get my own price - who is the best person to consult regarding this - a builder, window installer etc?

When was the window put in? It only has to meet building regulations that were present then.

If it was me. I’d tell them to take it or leave it.

mel.b · 17-07-2019 1:43pm

The window was in when I purchased the house in 2013. The house was built approx 2006. I know the window was present in 2009 from a google street view pic. Apparently it doesn't meet the 1997, 2006 or new regulations.

Doop · 17-07-2019 1:44pm

To be fair thats a pretty small issue, surprised the purchaser is looking to knock the price of the window off the sale price but I suppose it depends on the market int he area you are in.

If you are looking for a price contact a window installer with dimensions etc.

P2C · 17-07-2019 1:59pm

Get the size of the velux and price the one that has a handle and is hinged at the top I think. The other thing is that the distance from the floor has to be a certain height. If it’s not your into moving the velux and a few other issues

Gumbo · 17-07-2019 3:32pm

ted1 wrote: »

When was the window put in? It only has to meet building regulations that were present then.

If it was me. I’d tell them to take it or leave it.

They will walk away then as the house in non compliant with Fire Safety Regulations, and rightly so.

Doop wrote: »

To be fair thats a pretty small issue, surprised the purchaser is looking to knock the price of the window off the sale price but I suppose it depends on the market int he area you are in.

If you are looking for a price contact a window installer with dimensions etc.

Not a small issue at all. The Velux has to be removed, it has to be moved lower down the roof plane so its no more than 1700mm from the eaves, then it can be man of 600mm from the internal floor. Its a decent day or 2 work especially if the rafters and supports have to be altered to suit.

P2C wrote: »

Get the size of the velux and price the one that has a handle and is hinged at the top I think. The other thing is that the distance from the floor has to be a certain height. If it’s not your into moving the velux and a few other issues

Top hung is not the only requirement. Also the size of the velux, 600mm to floor minimum but it can extend to 1100mm. The big one is 1700mm to the external eaves.

OP, is this an attic conversion?

sydthebeat · 17-07-2019 3:54pm

Doop wrote: »

To be fair thats a pretty small issue, surprised the purchaser is looking to knock the price of the window off the sale price but I suppose it depends on the market int he area you are in.

If you are looking for a price contact a window installer with dimensions etc.

escape in case of fire... absolutely not a small issue.

Doop · 17-07-2019 4:12pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

escape in case of fire... absolutely not a small issue.

You're right lets knock down most of the housing stock and start again seeing as they don't comply with current regs.. :rolleyes:

We're talking a couple of thousand max to put right.. every second hand house has numerous issues flagged up in their Building Survey.. if all sales were renegotiation on that basis no house would ever change hands.

sydthebeat · 17-07-2019 4:20pm

Doop wrote: »

You're right lets knock down most of the housing stock and start again seeing as they don't comply with current regs.. :rolleyes:
.

its easy make existing stock comply with fire regs... when replacing windows (which people do every 15 years approx) then the new wondows have to comply with openable requirements in current regs

If a roof light is too high for escape, it will always be too high....

and wehen it comes to escape in case of fire, thats NOT a small issue. if you thinnk so, you have your priorities wrong.

mel.b · 17-07-2019 8:40pm

kceire wrote: »

They will walk away then as the house in non compliant with Fire Safety Regulations, and rightly so.

Not a small issue at all. The Velux has to be removed, it has to be moved lower down the roof plane so its no more than 1700mm from the eaves, then it can be man of 600mm from the internal floor. Its a decent day or 2 work especially if the rafters and supports have to be altered to suit.

Top hung is not the only requirement. Also the size of the velux, 600mm to floor minimum but it can extend to 1100mm. The big one is 1700mm to the external eaves.

OP, is this an attic conversion?

Thanks. Its not an attic conversion as such. It’s 1st floor built into dormer space i guess? Some houses had dormer windows built at the front when being built but mine didn’t, so the velux have been added at some point (to the back of the room)

I can measure the 600mm to the floor - how do i measure the 1700mm to the external eaves (can i even do that from inside?)

This is a photo of the room...

P2C · 17-07-2019 8:55pm

I had a similar issue to make a room compliant and rather than moving the window down if that can’t work. ( mine was the right size). If you have a permanent step under the window. I put in a step and finished with oak timber but I am sure you could be creative. It has to be immovable. That was in 2011 on a new build where the velux was to high due to an extra block to accommodate extra insulation

Gumbo · 17-07-2019 11:30pm

P2C wrote: »

I had a similar issue to make a room compliant and rather than moving the window down if that can’t work. ( mine was the right size). If you have a permanent step under the window. I put in a step and finished with oak timber but I am sure you could be creative. It has to be immovable. That was in 2011 on a new build where the velux was to high due to an extra block to accommodate extra insulation

This possible. I’ve seen this as a solution in many cases. The 1700 to the eaves is a tougher one to rectify though.

Some options :

Sell as one bedroom less and stipulate it’s for storage or non habitable use.
Mention the current fire regs that allow a family room not to have accessible windows if they escape into a protected escape stairs.

mel.b · 17-07-2019 11:44pm

kceire wrote: »

This possible. I’ve seen this as a solution in many cases. The 1700 to the eaves is a tougher one to rectify though.

Some options :

Sell as one bedroom less and stipulate it’s for storage or non habitable use.
Mention the current fire regs that allow a family room not to have accessible windows if they escape into a protected escape stairs.

Thanks kceire. Is it possible to measure the 1700mm to the eaves from the inside? What is a protected staircase?

Unfortunately i don’t think i can go back and class it as a non habitable room without loosing even more money. It was advertised as 4/5bedrooms and i had converted the box room into a WIR (the EA still advertised this as a bedroom). So saying this is non habitable would bring it down to a 3 bedroom house (2 upstairs & 1 downstairs)

Gumbo · 18-07-2019 9:19am

mel.b wrote: »

Thanks kceire. Is it possible to measure the 1700mm to the eaves from the inside? What is a protected staircase?

Unfortunately i don’t think i can go back and class it as a non habitable room without loosing even more money. It was advertised as 4/5bedrooms and i had converted the box room into a WIR (the EA still advertised this as a bedroom). So saying this is non habitable would bring it down to a 3 bedroom house (2 upstairs & 1 downstairs)

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C1657%2Cen.pdf

That is for attic conversions.
If yours is a room at first floor level, then it needs to comply with the means of escape regulations as set out in TGD Part B, unfortunately these haven’t changed since 1992 as they are good enough so you can’t argue compliance at the time of construction as the standards are still the same.

It’s looking like alterations to comply or sell asmone bedroom less I’m afraid.

mel.b · 18-07-2019 10:13am

Thanks kceire. With regards to opening size, would it need to be a top hung velux to meet the 0.33m2 requirement? I susoect this is where it has failed as they are more than 600mm off the floor and i’m pretty certain they are within the 1700mm to the eaves (at least without getting up and measuring)

Gumbo · 18-07-2019 10:53am

mel.b wrote: »

Thanks kceire. With regards to opening size, would it need to be a top hung velux to meet the 0.33m2 requirement? I susoect this is where it has failed as they are more than 600mm off the floor and i’m pretty certain they are within the 1700mm to the eaves (at least without getting up and measuring)

They have to comply with all the requirements, so too hung, floor to cill height, distance to eaves and opening area of .33 Sq. M.

Sarahs554 · 10-02-2021 11:55am

Just wondering if ye came up with a solution for this?
We had almost bought a house when our engineer noticed the distance from window
To eves was 2300mm instead of the required 1700mm and thereafter not fire compliant.
He recons the only solution is to knock windows into the gable walls of each bedroom. The vendor is not prepared to fix or negotiate the price so it’s not looking too good. The vendor recons we just got a very sticky engineer!!

mel.b · 10-02-2021 12:22pm

I very reluctantly agreed to a price reduction... €2000 IIRC. It was that or loose the sale.

I bet if i drove past the house they have done nothing to rectify the issue as well which is what really annoys me.

Sarahs554 · 10-02-2021 12:26pm

That’s a shame but I guess when they go to sell the house the issue will arise again. Probably got off lightly, our engineer has quoted about 10k to put gable windows in. This feel quite extreme.

mel.b · 10-02-2021 12:29pm

Yes, i think my buyers wanted €5k off initially.

I got a couple of people to come & look at it to give a quote and that showed they were dreaming asking for 5k off.

If the room is not advertised as a habitable room then you can get around it when selling apparently.

Gumbo · 10-02-2021 12:50pm

Sarahs554 wrote: »

Just wondering if ye came up with a solution for this?
We had almost bought a house when our engineer noticed the distance from window
To eves was 2300mm instead of the required 1700mm and thereafter not fire compliant.
He recons the only solution is to knock windows into the gable walls of each bedroom. The vendor is not prepared to fix or negotiate the price so it’s not looking too good. The vendor recons we just got a very sticky engineer!!

If you buy with the problems, the problems will arise when yo go to sell.
Are the rooms advertised as Bedrooms or Habitable rooms?

Sarahs554 · 10-02-2021 1:40pm

Yes they are two bedrooms upstairs,(1 being en suite)
I don’t know if there’s another solution other than putting windows in the gable walls.
What solution did they offer for 5k/2k ??

Gumbo · 10-02-2021 2:31pm

Sarahs554 wrote: »

Yes they are two bedrooms upstairs,(1 being en suite)
I don’t know if there’s another solution other than putting windows in the gable walls.
What solution did they offer for 5k/2k ??

€2k was low. I don't believe anything could be done with 2k to make it compliant. Gable windows or adding an additional velux rooflight into the correct position may work?

Sarahs554 · 10-02-2021 5:18pm

My engineer said ya wouldn’t see change from 10k. Vendor still isn’t budging on price anyway so looks like we will have to pull out as we’re stretched as it is.

Mellor · 11-02-2021 2:15am

mel.b wrote: »

Yes, i think my buyers wanted €5k off initially.

I got a couple of people to come & look at it to give a quote and that showed they were dreaming asking for 5k off.

If the room is not advertised as a habitable room then you can get around it when selling apparently.

Defining a bedroom as a non-habitable store will see a much bigger drop in price that 2k

mel.b · 11-02-2021 12:12pm

Sarahs554 wrote: »

Yes they are two bedrooms upstairs,(1 being en suite)
I don’t know if there’s another solution other than putting windows in the gable walls.
What solution did they offer for 5k/2k ??

5k was for a dormer window to be added. We settled on 2k after i got some quotes about replacing the velux, making it larger (as it was too small). Other measurements were ok.

badger54 · 19-02-2021 12:21pm

Very interesting thread.

I am buying a 4 bed semi and will have the attic converted (by a different builder who quoted me 20-25 for conversion, compared to house builder who wanted 40k) once I move in. The house is a new build.

I am hoping to have an en suite attic conversion ideally compliant so room qualifies as an extra bedroom.

I don't have a great deal of experience (first home) in having building work done. At this stage all I have received is a quote by phone. I dont have plans/architectural drawings yet so havent discussed design of attic with builder etc.

Can anyone provide any advice - things to look out for etc?

Also, are there restrictions on what size Velux windows can be used on the rear roof (I understand that planning required for Velux windows on front roof so won't be doing that)?

Mellor · 19-02-2021 12:54pm

badger54 wrote: »

I am buying a 4 bed semi and will have the attic converted (by a different builder who quoted me 20-25 for conversion, compared to house builder who wanted 40k) once I move in. The house is a new build.

I’d get an itemised list of what each quote included before you dismiss either. There’s a huge chance one guy is quote for attic only and he other including the upgrade requirements to the lower levels (fire escape).

Sarahs554 · 06-03-2021 10:53pm

I have just viewed another house this evening and it’s perfect, except... the dormers in This one are the exact same from eave shoot to window ledge 220 instead of the max 170. We lost the last house, really don’t wanna lose this this one too!! Hoping the vendor might budge on price but the auctioneer recons if gable windows were to be in, no way we’d get planning. Is lowering the dormer window a totally awful job?

DOCARCH · 07-03-2021 7:17am

Sarahs554 wrote: »

Is lowering the dormer window a totally awful job?

In most cases, yes. You probably would end up rebuilding the entire dormer! To get window to eaves distance to 1700mm you would probably need to move dormer wall out.

Window not meeting fire regulations

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