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11-06-2019, 13:33   #46
electro~bitch
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Funny, when it's about Alex Jones or some other right wing nutjob the thread is infested with people doggedly making a variation on the point that you can respect someone's right to hold and express beliefs and not be persecuted for them, without yourself agreeing with those beliefs. But transpose that exact same scenario onto Islam and the LGBT movement and the same fcukers are here bamboozled and disdainful. Mind you, probably fully convinced that those people are more persecuted than Muslims.

Christians are not persecuted in the western world. That's where these parades are taking place. Sure I bet the parade in Paris said nothing about the travellers, didn't see a word about the Rohinga in the Berlin one so it's all a sham!!!
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11-06-2019, 13:35   #47
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Gays are described as the worst people in existence by Mohamed.

Though he had the same to say about Jews and Women.

Rich white activists look at Muslims as Brown people, therefore in need of their protection.
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11-06-2019, 13:35   #48
theological
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhilG View Post
I'm not saying that supporting one another and speaking out against bigotry and homoohobia together is a bad thing. I'm just surprised that the LGBTQ community support Islam, but condemn Christianity.

I can totally understand them condemning both, as both religions teach that homosexuality is wrong/sinful. I just don't get why one is supported and the other is not.

Again, this is a genuine question that I'm curious about so please don't drag it down to a mud slinging match.
To put my bias cards on the table, I'm an evangelical Christian.

The problem is that our discourse in the West is broken on this issue because of a fear of not being politically correct.

We also seek to blunt tensions in a simplistic manner, kind of like in the post below:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancapailldorcha View Post
Probably because one community which suffers discrimination and hatred can empathise with other demographics who experience the same.
There is a tension. Christianity in its Biblical sources, and Islam in its Qur'anic sources are opposed to any sexual acts outside of a heterosexual marriage. Islamic rules about marriage do differ significantly to Christian ones in some ways. For example - Christianity doesn't have a concept of temporary marriage (there is some discussion around how legitimate this is in Islam).

What do you then do with that tension?

There's a couple of choices.

Shut down the tension by saying that disagreement is hate speech. This seems to be how Western liberal society progresses when Christians express a public position on this. This includes attempts at character assassination so that people lose their jobs and so on. The specific example I can think of recently is in respect to Israel Folau in Australia. It will be interesting to see how the courts decide on this.

Suppress the tension by denying its existence. Deny that there is any significant difference, or claim that it is just a bunch of hardcore fanatics hold to it. The reality is of course, that the so called "fanatics" are the ones who actually hold to what the Bible (or the Qur'an in the case of Muslims) says. (This seems to be the option that most people take with Islam).

Respect that people disagree and accept their liberty to do so. This seems to be the traditional Western view on this before the introduction of "hate speech" laws. It accepts that people have the liberty to say what they want and believe what they want. This seems to be the model that America on a federal level holds to in its constitution. It seems to be the right one from my perspective. Why? Disagreement on sexual matters is genuinely not hatred. You can disagree with me on that and offer your reasons if you wish.

Now - why do people choose the second option for Islam more often than the first. The reason is because Islam is more tightly coupled to race. Christianity because of its great advancement largely during the Victorian era and in the 20th century is obviously not tied to race. If one had to tie it to race one would incorrectly assume that it is a Western religion. Therefore it cannot be perceived to be racist to criticise it. Of course that neglects the understanding that there are plenty of white Muslims in places like Chechnya or in the Balkans, but by and large the majority that live in Western countries are from Asia. If people chose the character assassination option then it would be incorrectly derided as being racist, rather than simply being prejudicial towards the belief system of conservative Muslims.

The best way to deal with the issues directly is to take the third option - accept liberty of speech and beliefs and to thrash the issues out in the public square in the pursuit of understanding.

Choosing the first or second option only gives us a superficial and shallow understanding of the issues which is why the OP finds himself frustrated over the lack of engagement on the issues.
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11-06-2019, 13:39   #49
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Or you could accept the fact that people aren't drones who slavishly comply with each and every detail in their holy book of choice, a feat which would be impossible in any case.

I've seen the cherrypicking and the "any criticism of Islam" is hate speech nonsense before. No thanks.

Last edited by ancapailldorcha; 11-06-2019 at 13:44.
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11-06-2019, 13:43   #50
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Does anyone else think people like yer man there suffer from a mental illness of some description? And I don't mean just being an asshole. There must be something medically wrong with someone like that.
He is probably an oddball, his views would be considered extreme in most Western societies.

In Clonskeagh and other Mosques, he'd be the imam.

The head figure for their fatwa council says gays must be lashed, killed if in Islamic societies, long list if people who must be beaten or killed.
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11-06-2019, 13:45   #51
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lgbt support for muslims as victims of oppression, fine.

lgbt support for islam, very silly.
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11-06-2019, 13:54   #52
 
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Its a marriage that will end very badly for one side
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11-06-2019, 13:56   #53
 
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Originally Posted by biko View Post
My point LGBT people would support the guy in your image.

What makes you think that?
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11-06-2019, 13:58   #54
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He is probably an oddball, his views would be considered extreme in most Western societies.

In Clonskeagh and other Mosques, he'd be the imam.

The head figure for their fatwa council says gays must be lashed, killed if in Islamic societies, long list if people who must be beaten or killed.
Is he not one of the Westboro Baptists? They're well known loonies.
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11-06-2019, 13:58   #55
 
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11-06-2019, 13:58   #56
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In the Netherlands and France, parties like Me Pens and Wilders have strong backing from gay people.

Probably a class division, the leafy suburbs providing left activists, those in working class areas providing others.
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11-06-2019, 14:01   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biko View Post
My point LGBT people would support the guy in your image.

Those values are Islam values.
I oppose those values.
Do you oppose those values?
I absolutely stand for his right to free speech. I do not stand for free hate speech.

I don't care if they're Christian, Muslim, white, black, gay or straight.

But you already know this, you attempted a strawman and it was awful.
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11-06-2019, 14:02   #58
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Here's a handy infographic backed up by research that outlines broad muslim attitudes to various social issues.

https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...s-and-society/

Of course there are nuances. I know many moderate (i.e. non practicing) muslims with liberal views, but let's not fool ourselves that Islam and LGBTQ+ could ever align in any meaningful way.

Some more information on more localised attitudes from the UK:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ity-sharia-law
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11-06-2019, 14:03   #59
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Surprised it took this long for the LGBT bashers to pretend they give a **** about them for a few minutes so they can bash the Muslims.
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11-06-2019, 14:06   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhilG View Post
Well I certainly wouldn't say its that straightforward.

But even if it was, WHY (in your opinion) is Islam the sacred cow of the left?
The left believe in ringfencing minorities from criticism

Long standing practice
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