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21-05-2019, 23:33   #1066
SusieBlue
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They did have a choice - between having an abortion abroad and seeing their pregnancies through. If they'd done the latter then they wouldn't have had to have their deceased children's ashes "shipped" home - they wouldn't have had to have the remains cremated at all.
Imagine the pain of knowing your baby will die at birth, and having to go through the motions of strangers asking questions and congratulating you for months on end? Carrying a child you know will die?
Have a bit of compassion, for goodness sake.

No one should have to carry that burden unless they choose to, and find comfort from it, as Vicky did.
In any other civilized country a choice would be given and BOTH women’s decisions would be respected. Both would be looked after.
Thankfully no other woman will ever have to go through that trauma again, and not a moment too soon.
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21-05-2019, 23:39   #1067
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The 8th amendment would have given a legal right to life to this poor defenceless innocent human life, and prevented his or her killing. Sad but true. All the right on lefty liberal 'woke' brigade : are you proud now?
That's proper authentic bottom of the barrel sludge right there. Using this tragedy to push your agenda, you should be ashamed of yourself. How dare you, really...

I can only imagine what the parents are going through. There are risks involved for the more comprehensive test, contrary to popular belief. It's not an easy decision to make, I have been there myself. Do you proceed with the second test find out if your child may have a serious disability (It's also not 100% accurate), risking a miscarriage or do you take a risk and hope your child is born healthy? Not many here would be as brave to make that decision as they would like to think.
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22-05-2019, 06:44   #1068
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That's proper authentic bottom of the barrel sludge right there. Using this tragedy to push your agenda, you should be ashamed of yourself. How dare you, really...

I can only imagine what the parents are going through. There are risks involved for the more comprehensive test, contrary to popular belief. It's not an easy decision to make, I have been there myself. Do you proceed with the second test find out if your child may have a serious disability (It's also not 100% accurate), risking a miscarriage or do you take a risk and hope your child is born healthy? Not many here would be as brave to make that decision as they would like to think.
Very good post, two words come to mind, compassion and understanding.
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22-05-2019, 09:18   #1069
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They did have a choice - between having an abortion abroad and seeing their pregnancies through. If they'd done the latter then they wouldn't have had to have their deceased children's ashes "shipped" home - they wouldn't have had to have the remains cremated at all.
Its not very compassionate to expect a woman to go through with a doomed pregnancy simply because you personally do not agree with abortion.

Its simply inflicting needless suffering. On the woman, her family, the unborn child who will have developed a nervous system and will experience pain upon both birth and death.

Why would you WANT people to go through that suffering?
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22-05-2019, 09:29   #1070
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I posted earlier in this thread about my experience following prenatal testing, where we had an initial high risk result for T18 and had to await amniocentesis results which were conclusive (and thankfully showed there was no abnormality). Amniocentesis is now a relatively unrisky procedure. The stats on miscarriage come from a time when there wasn't the same level of scanning we have now, and doctors would listen for a heartbeat and try to avoid the foetus when inserting a needle to obtain amniotic fluid.

During the waiting period I became more and more convinced I would continue the pregnancy even if the worst was diagnosed. This was a decision I came to without pressure, because we had the means to travel if we needed to. This all happened at the height of the repeal campaign and the horrible prolife banners outside Holles Street were just awful to have to navigate.

I am 100% prochoice and I would never ever tell anyone they should do what I would have done. I voted for repeal and I believe the current legislation is far too restrictive. I hope access to abortion will be increased over time.

We have a healthy eighth month old and that is something I am thankful for every single day. It isn't fair to tell other people they're imposing needless suffering on a baby should they decide to continue a pregnancy. There are complex abnormalities and you can't know exactly what will happen during pregnancy and delivery.

I know this is a bit rambling but it's not nice to tell people they're making their baby suffer and so on. Until you are faced with considering decisions like this you can't know what you would do. I always thought I would know exactly what I'd do, until I really had to consider it in a non-abstract way.
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03-06-2019, 16:00   #1071
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https://www.irishexaminer.com/breaki...on-928382.html

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An added issue that has arisen after the legislation for terminations in the case of a fatal foetal anomaly diagnosis, is increased stigma.

“The stigma now of travelling is much worse because if the baby’s diagnosis was bad enough you’d be looked after here. There are assumptions around that,” said Ms Cullen, who experienced her own loss after a fatal diagnosis.
What assumptions could they be?
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03-06-2019, 16:49   #1072
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Going by the other statements in the article by the person, just that an assumption nothing else.
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03-06-2019, 17:17   #1073
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This is the case we've all been waiting for.
Have we? Nice of you to take it on yourself to speak on other peoples behalf.
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12-06-2019, 19:13   #1074
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looking forward for more clarity on what process was followed here - after seeing this in media today "the medical practitioners who signed off on the abortion never examined or met the mother her in advance of the abortion."
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12-06-2019, 19:37   #1075
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What difference would that have made?

What would an examination of the mother shown that was different to the tests results? A doctor can't diagnose a FFA by putting their hands on someone's bump.

Doctors sign of on medical decisions all the time on the basis of test results without examining patients hands on. I don't see this as any different. They're grasping at straws trying to make a case, in my opinion.
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12-06-2019, 19:44   #1076
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looking forward for more clarity on what process was followed here - after seeing this in media today "the medical practitioners who signed off on the abortion never examined or met the mother her in advance of the abortion."
After seeing pictures of Tobin all over that article that's all I need to know.
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12-06-2019, 19:56   #1077
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https://www.thejournal.ie/holles-st-...39179-May2019/




interesting one. Docs obviously fecked up test but mother didn't want a dodgy baby
That's an incredibly glib way of putting things.

But look, you either have class or you don't.
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12-06-2019, 19:57   #1078
mvl
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What difference would that have made?

What would an examination of the mother shown that was different to the tests results? A doctor can't diagnose a FFA by putting their hands on someone's bump.

Doctors sign of on medical decisions all the time on the basis of test results without examining patients hands on. I don't see this as any different. They're grasping at straws trying to make a case, in my opinion.

Why would the process allow someone who's not even their doctor to signoff for a pregnancy termination ?

It would matter in my view because I'd hope their own doctor would be more invested in getting things right on their behalf (or guide the patients for best possible outcome).
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12-06-2019, 21:48   #1079
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Why would the process allow someone who's not even their doctor to signoff for a pregnancy termination ?

It would matter in my view because I'd hope their own doctor would be more invested in getting things right on their behalf (or guide the patients for best possible outcome).
The issue is that the doctors have to "examine" the woman to sign off on FFA. The point now, is that is viewing tests results for a condition that can't be determined by a physical examination enough? Because this is what Tobin et al are going to argue.
It's a failed arguement already imo, but they will try and try
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13-06-2019, 00:37   #1080
mvl
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The issue is that the doctors have to "examine" the woman to sign off on FFA. The point now, is that is viewing tests results for a condition that can't be determined by a physical examination enough? Because this is what Tobin et al are going to argue.
It's a failed arguement already imo, but they will try and try

but lets step back a bit ...

- if the maternity medical services in Ireland are provided by a GP and/or a hospital obstetrician, these roles have responsibility for the mother/fetus well being (they would implicitly examine the woman earlier in the pregnancy) - why shouldn't they be one of the parties required when authorizing a termination ?

imo, whoever executes additional tests required in a pregnancy (including to prove FFA) can be seen as a third party; and as any third party, they should rather provide input/recommendation to such decision, instead of being authorized to approve the actual termination.
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