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Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

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    #872
    davindub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭davindub


    CoffeeBean2 wrote: »
    You also do *NOT* need planning permission or change of use permission to open a B&B as long as you have four or less units!

    This is true, but it must still be used as a dwelling (someone must reside there). I have seen permissions granted where an B&B is operating and they sometimes restrict the use of new extensions for family use only, etc.

    Don't be confusing these exemptions with general permissions, the original permission (use) must be also complied with and doesn't change.


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    #873
    CoffeeBean2
    Registered Users Posts: 104 ✭✭CoffeeBean2


    davindub wrote: »
    The 14 days mentioned actually changes the normal accepted meaning of resides quite a bit, so that's actually an improvement for those operating short term lets.

    If 14 days now mean that someone resided in a location, does that also mean that an owner could 'reside' in their second property for just over 14 days, claim it to be their new PPR, and then avail of the 90 days short term letting allowed to PPR?


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    #874
    Fian
    Registered Users Posts: 2,187 ✭✭✭Fian


    i had posted this in another thread at some stage but i don't think it has been posted in this thread yet. In any case here are the regulations:


    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2019/si/235/made/en/print


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    #875
    davindub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭davindub


    CoffeeBean2 wrote: »
    If 14 days now mean that someone resided in a location, does that also mean that an owner could 'reside' in their second property for just over 14 days, claim it to be their new PPR, and then avail of the 90 days short term letting allowed to PPR?

    No, the PPR is a different meaning than dwelling and the general meaning of PPR is "one main" residence, it is likely to mean the nominated PPR (as held by Revenue) of the landlord. There are reporting issues to the local council as well. But the most compelling reason not to switch PPR for this reason, is that even if possible, would be the loss of the PPR exemption from CGT.

    The regs are here http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2019/si/235/made/en/pdf, you can see a few qualifying terms regarding compliance with the original planning permission.


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    #876
    beejee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    Another "race to the bottom", hyper-capitalist, tech company in the firing line (years late)

    "disrupter" is code word for making a complete disaster of things and then riding off into the sunset with bags of money.

    These tech "ideas" need to be nuked from orbit before more people become trapped and reliant on them.


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    #877
    Fian
    Registered Users Posts: 2,187 ✭✭✭Fian


    CoffeeBean2 wrote: »
    If 14 days now mean that someone resided in a location, does that also mean that an owner could 'reside' in their second property for just over 14 days, claim it to be their new PPR, and then avail of the 90 days short term letting allowed to PPR?

    PPR = Principal private residence. If they move in on a permanent basis they could claim it was their PPR immediately, no need to wait 14 days. If they move in intending to remain for 14 days only obviously it would not be their PPR. It would be their residence for those 14 days but not their "principal" residence.

    They would of course then lose the CGT PPR on their previous PPR down the line if they sold it. They could only claim PPR relief for the periods which it was their PPR + the year of sale.


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    #878
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,003 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    xckjoo wrote: »
    I've heard of people who organise off-the-books bookings for people once they meet them personally. Maybe it's to catch things like them

    There is no “off the books” with Airbnb. The only way to book a rental is by paying for it with your card or by PayPal. That is why this type of legislation may well result in more cash bookings through other platforms such as Facebook/booking.com. The benefit of Airbnb for Revenue is that records of all payments automatically go to Revenue.

    As has been posted many times, the legislation is pointless and toothless unless there is enforcement. DCC confirmed last week that NO additional staff had been employed nor assigned prior to this law coming into effect.


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    #879
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    CoffeeBean2 wrote: »
    If 14 days now mean that someone resided in a location, does that also mean that an owner could 'reside' in their second property for just over 14 days, claim it to be their new PPR, and then avail of the 90 days short term letting allowed to PPR?

    PPR flipping like that is going to come back and bite you hard when selling the properties. Full CGT on everything sound fun?


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    #880
    Zenify
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭Zenify


    CoffeeBean2 wrote: »
    You can turn it into a pub, you just can't charge a per pint price, this was done in Donegal. You also do *NOT* need planning permission or change of use permission to open a B&B as long as you have four or less units!

    You may be able to do it with a roundabout of the law but I dont think it is right. I wouldn't buy a house in the middle of a residential area and feel like I am entitled to turn it into a pub just because I own it. Then complaining when the law is made more clear about not being allowed to do it.

    I was quoting B&B in my post referring to the current short term let rules.


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    #881
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,100 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Does this only apply to AirBnb, booking.com etc?

    As in if you have a property rental company looking after your holiday home under contract you don't fall foul of these new rules. They don't advertise your home on these platforms.


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    #882
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    It's the type of letting that matters, not the advertising venue/platform.


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    #883
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,100 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Holiday rental beside the sea side looked after by a holiday home rental company. The estate was built as holiday homes.


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    #884
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    That may have appropriate planning already particularly if built for tax reliefs back in the day. Dig up the planning file


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    #885
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,100 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    At the top of the notices there's a paragraph "this property is subject to the provisions prohibiting letting, subletting or subdivision specified in section 12", and something about section 45, that whole paragraph is cancelled with a line, dated and reference on it.


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    #886
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    In your case drunkmonkey, I'd be booking a quick chat with a solicitor to confirm on way or another.


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    #887
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,100 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Looks promising based on the strikeout.


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    #888
    Bluefoam
    Registered Users Posts: 7,710 ✭✭✭Bluefoam


    Holiday home probably refers to a second residential property/secondary home & probably not intended for the short term rental or hotel market...

    Hence:
    "this property is subject to the provisions prohibiting letting, subletting or subdivision specified in section 12"

    Just a guess... If you plan to let it out to short term rentals, you should probaly engage your solicitor and a good architect to advise you on the planning & potentoial to apply to change it if necessary.


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    #889
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,100 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    That section about letting is noted as cancelled with a big line through it.
    I'll get it checked out but I'd assume it being cancelled means it's not subject to the regulation sepecifed. The estate is mainly holiday homes but some are resedential. It was built as a holiday home on day one. Hopefully it shouldn't need to get planning as the original use isn't changing.


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    #890
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Is the property in an RPZ?


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    #891
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,100 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    No not in a pressure zone.


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    #892
    xckjoo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    Dav010 wrote: »
    There is no “off the books” with Airbnb. The only way to book a rental is by paying for it with your card or by PayPal. That is why this type of legislation may well result in more cash bookings through other platforms such as Facebook/booking.com. The benefit of Airbnb for Revenue is that records of all payments automatically go to Revenue.

    As has been posted many times, the legislation is pointless and toothless unless there is enforcement. DCC confirmed last week that NO additional staff had been employed nor assigned prior to this law coming into effect.


    I meant situations like you book once through AirBnB and the owner tells you to contact them directly if you ever need to stay again. Cash in hand, no AirBnB involved after the first stay. I've also heard of people being told to cancel the AirBnB booking and they'd do it for cheaper, but that might not be possible anymore.


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    #893
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    No not in a pressure zone.

    Go and read the new rules. Your local CoCo may have guidelines.

    Here are the ones from DCC

    Summary of the new regulations and what they mean.
    Background.
    The Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government has introduced new Regulations which allow for the use of a “house” for the purposes of Short Term Letting, in a rent pressure zone, in restricted circumstances provided statutory notifications are sent to the relevant Local Authority.
    http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-planning/new-short-term-letting-regulations-planning-and-development-amendment

    Emphasis added

    My understanding is the regulations were tailored so as not to interfere with traditional holiday letting areas. Get independent, qualified legal advice.


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    #894
    Nermal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,614 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Bluefoam wrote: »
    If you are running short term lets from a property that is not your primary reidence, then you are competing with hotels, but you have chosen not to adhere to the standards set for hotekls, thus giving your business an advantage and possibly effecting the quality and safety for guests.

    How about we let the consumer decide? Sometimes when I'm travelling I want a hotel, sometimes I want an AirBNB. Who are you to tell me I can't make that decision?


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    #895
    TSQ
    Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭TSQ


    xckjoo wrote: »
    I meant situations like you book once through AirBnB and the owner tells you to contact them directly if you ever need to stay again. Cash in hand, no AirBnB involved after the first stay. I've also heard of people being told to cancel the AirBnB booking and they'd do it for cheaper, but that might not be possible anymore.
    I cant imagine there would be enough repeat business from tourists to make this viable. I mean, most tourists “do” Dublin once and then go somewhere else the following year. Different if you have a rural or beach property where families will spend a couple of weeks of the school hols, but none of the rent pressure zones most affected by the new rules fall into this category.


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    #896
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Nermal wrote: »
    How about we let the consumer decide? Sometimes when I'm travelling I want a hotel, sometimes I want an AirBNB. Who are you to tell me I can't make that decision?

    The legislation has restricted that decision for you.


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    #897
    theguzman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭theguzman


    I own a house which is outside of a Rent Pressure Zone, I am planning to list it on airbnb shortly. What if any ramifications would this have for me?


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    #898
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,003 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    xckjoo wrote: »
    I meant situations like you book once through AirBnB and the owner tells you to contact them directly if you ever need to stay again. Cash in hand, no AirBnB involved after the first stay. I've also heard of people being told to cancel the AirBnB booking and they'd do it for cheaper, but that might not be possible anymore.

    Airbnb only provide insurance when booked through the site, my additional “holiday let” insurance is also specific to Airbnb lettings only. A cash booking would leave me exposed both to full cost of any damage plus no public liability cover if anything happened to the guest. I’ve been on Airbnb for 2 years, extremely rear to have repeat business, mostly tourists coming for once off visits.

    Is this a friend of a friend of your third cousin twice removed told you what you heard?


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    #899
    guideanna
    Registered Users Posts: 492 ✭✭guideanna


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If one is running a business from the premises you have to have the proper planning permission a pay rates.

    I'm not running a business, i'm renting out my property, same as i've always done. They are changing the goalposts, not me!


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    #900
    Bluefoam
    Registered Users Posts: 7,710 ✭✭✭Bluefoam


    guideanna wrote: »
    I'm not running a business, i'm renting out my property, same as i've always done. They are changing the goalposts, not me!

    You've always been running a business, just not been honest or upfront about it. Now they have clarified legistlation so that it is easier to manage people like you...


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    #901
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    guideanna wrote: »
    I'm not running a business, i'm renting out my property, same as i've always done. They are changing the goalposts, not me!

    Change of use from residential to short term letting was always likely to be considered a change of use/intensification of use and therefore subject to planning.


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