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Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

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Comments

  • #92
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,049 ✭✭✭buffalo


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    I'm paraphrasing. But I'm not the one you need to be arguing this with.

    You're the one saying that it's your opinion, are you not going to stand by it?
    Larbre34 wrote: »
    The solution to this is to put the cycleway, properly designed and funded, on the Promenade as S2S always envisaged and to carry out village enhancement schemes in Sandymount and Irishtown to discourage extraneous traffic and give them the benefits of a people focussed public realm that has been seen in places like Blackrock.

    Why won't this work with the current proposed trial design?


  • #93
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,776 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    buffalo wrote: »
    You're the one saying that it's your opinion, are you not going to stand by it?

    Why won't this work with the current proposed trial design?

    I stand by it absolutely. Section 38 works are fine for localised measures, like putting in a few ramps, or a signalised crossing or a junction improvement, not a fundamental and widely impactful alteration plan like the Strand Road proposal is.

    Dublin City Council's own explanatory document on the Part 8 process says the following

    "Heading: Types of Development that require the Part 8 Procedures...

    ... 2. The construction of a new road or the widening or realignment of an existing road, where the length of new road or of the widened or realigned road is 100 metres or more."

    I don't need to tell anyone that the length of road subject to this proposal exceeds 1,200 metres. The argument is - and I will be on one side and you the other - that because they aren't proposing to change the underlying fabric of the road, that Part 8 does not apply. Thats what An Bord Pleanála will have to adjudicate. I'm not sure if Part 8 has been tested quite like this, but I do know it makes no provision for temporary works or so-called trials.

    Its worth bearing in mind too, that when Section 38 is mentioned, DCCs own executive referred to the proposal as "unorthodox". Hardly a forthright argument for measures that are notionally best practice.

    As for Sandymount getting a village scheme, AND Strand Road being reduced to one way? In my example of Blackrock village, they were able to make the main street one-way and reclaim road space for pedestrian, cycle and social distancing use, precisely because the Blackrock Bypass exists as an alternative. Strand Road is that alternative for Sandymount. Heavy vehicles that have legitimate business in the area, deliveries, construction carriers, bin trucks, they're all entitled to gain access, in some manner. The residents groups argue that a combination of all these proposals turn their district into something of an island, interfering with the amenity of their properties and so on.

    As I say, these are arguments, they will now happen before An BP, probably also at City Council level once again and maybe even before the Courts at some point.

    They may find that my interpretation of things and the advice the combined residents groups have received is wrong, to some degree, but my experience tells me they will not.


  • #94
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,838 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    I think a longer term solution is a dedicated cycle path on the inside of the sea wall on the Strand road and extend it out to Blackrock, it could be combined with flood defense work and a better route to the lighthouse, as it is, its a bit of a mess.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #95
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,775 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    silverharp wrote: »
    I think a longer term solution is a dedicated cycle path on the inside of the sea wall on the Strand road and extend it out to Blackrock, it could be combined with flood defense work and a better route to the lighthouse, as it is, its a bit of a mess.
    but...but...but where are the drivers meant to park then?

    https://twitter.com/Annahadfield/status/1348290334627930115


  • #96
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,838 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    but...but...but where are the drivers meant to park then?

    https://twitter.com/Annahadfield/status/1348290334627930115

    lol, hadnt seen that before, must be a lockdown thing

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • #97
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    silverharp wrote: »
    lol, hadnt seen that before, must be a lockdown thing

    You're supposed to exercise within 5km and some people will still drive... to exercise?


  • #98
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,838 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    strandroad wrote: »
    You're supposed to exercise within 5km and some people will still drive... to exercise?

    we need special D4 plates, keep the riff raff away

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #99
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,776 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    strandroad wrote: »
    You're supposed to exercise within 5km and some people will still drive... to exercise?

    I live a couple of clicks from the Phoenix Park. I drove there to run yesterday, because a) the streets near me are wide and busy with pedestrians so its hard to distance and b) because I bloody like running there.

    While those cars shouldn't be parked on the grass at Sandymount, it does go to show, the space they take up would make a perfect two-way cycletrack.


  • #100
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,694 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    I live a couple of clicks from the Phoenix Park. I drove there to run yesterday, because a) the streets near me are wide and busy with pedestrians so its hard to distance and b) because I bloody like running there.

    While those cars shouldn't be parked on the grass at Sandymount, it does go to show, the space they take up would make a perfect two-way cycletrack.

    It's a nature reserve. You can't build on the inside. That should be the end of that discussion.


  • #101
    PaulieC
    Registered Users Posts: 6,183 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    silverharp wrote: »
    I think a longer term solution is a dedicated cycle path on the inside of the sea wall on the Strand road and extend it out to Blackrock, it could be combined with flood defense work and a better route to the lighthouse, as it is, its a bit of a mess.

    The route to the lighthouse is a bit of a mess ? Why so ?


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  • #102
    PaulieC
    Registered Users Posts: 6,183 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    I'm paraphrasing. But I'm not the one you need to be arguing this with.

    The local groups that all needed to come together to consider the wider implications on their communities have done so, not just Sandymount, but Irishtown, Merrion, Bath Avenue and so on. They realise that effectively blocking an important cross city regional route without a suitable diversion option is bad news for their villages and streets and that they are being sold a substandard pup.

    The solution to this is to put the cycleway, properly designed and funded, on the Promenade as S2S always envisaged and to carry out village enhancement schemes in Sandymount and Irishtown to discourage extraneous traffic and give them the benefits of a people focussed public realm that has been seen in places like Blackrock.

    The Strand Road "trial" is doomed now in my opinion, one way or another.

    I agree. I think it was a bad idea to begin with as it was always going to meet with very strong resistance due to doing away with a major approach to the East link and forcing that traffic through villages and down routes that can't cope.

    IMO, the more suitable option would be to take the cycleway though Sandymount village and out onto Merrion road at Merrion shopping centre. I know you're losing a bit of the coastal route doing this, but it would make the village a more pleasant place to be in the way Monkstown and Blackrock have been transformed


  • #103
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,233 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    I live a couple of clicks from the Phoenix Park. I drove there to run yesterday, because a) the streets near me are wide and busy with pedestrians so its hard to distance and b) because I bloody like running there.

    While those cars shouldn't be parked on the grass at Sandymount, it does go to show, the space they take up would make a perfect two-way cycletrack.

    There's a 5km lock down. If you drove a couple of clicks. How far was your run??


  • #104
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,838 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    PaulieC wrote: »
    The route to the lighthouse is a bit of a mess ? Why so ?

    The path through the nature park is not all tarmac, there is a bit in the middle that is just a mucky grass track and if memory is correct bikes shouldnt be using it anyway, its just for pedestrians, it certainly isnt marked out for bikes and would be too narrow anyway

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #105
    crisco10
    Registered Users Posts: 6,172 ✭✭✭crisco10


    ted1 wrote: »
    There's a 5km lock down. If you drove a couple of clicks. How far was your run??

    Ah I get where he is coming from. maybe he didn't want to spend the 1st and last 10/15 minutes of his run on the busy roads and only a middle 15 mins in Phoenix Park. Where a quick scoot in the car allows him 45 mins in the Phoenix Park running.

    Personally, I'm not arsed getting in and out of the car and parking etc, but I get why some are.


  • #106
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,694 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    These are exactly the type of unnecessary car journeys we should be cutting down on, that means there's more room in the park for all of the disabled and elderly people in cars that the whole of twitter seems to be so concerned about whenever car restrictions are mentioned.


  • #107
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,049 ✭✭✭buffalo


    crisco10 wrote: »
    Ah I get where he is coming from. maybe he didn't want to spend the 1st and last 10/15 minutes of his run on the busy roads and only a middle 15 mins in Phoenix Park. Where a quick scoot in the car allows him 45 mins in the Phoenix Park running.

    Personally, I'm not arsed getting in and out of the car and parking etc, but I get why some are.

    If only there was some way to make the roads near him less busy and more pleasant for pedestrians and runners... :pac:


  • #108
    MangleBadger
    Registered Users Posts: 493 ✭✭MangleBadger


    I don't understand this fear of Sandymount becoming a rat run if they remove 1 lane.

    It would make no sense to try drive through the village if you are now being diverted along say Tritonville Avenue.


  • #109
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,838 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    different area, but surprised there isnt lighting on the dodder route from Clonskeagh up, I had arranged with a friend to go jogging there one night recently, it theory it should be a decent cycling commuter route but pretty much unusable its so dark

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #110
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,233 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    silverharp wrote: »
    different area, but surprised there isnt lighting on the dodder route from Clonskeagh up, I had arranged with a friend to go jogging there one night recently, it theory it should be a decent cycling commuter route but pretty much unusable its so dark

    It’s amazing what a good set of bike lights can do.


  • #111
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,838 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    MangleBadger wrote: »
    I don't understand this fear of Sandymount becoming a rat run if they remove 1 lane.

    It would make no sense to try drive through the village if you are now being diverted along say Tritonville Avenue.

    in theory it shouldnt be too bad, its the traffic heading in the direction of town or the east link would be affected, as it is you cant turn right at to go to sandymount from the merrion road except at merrion gates so would just be more gridlock on the merrion road.
    Im guessing some people are thinking the lane closed will mean traffic cant go south so picture the east link traffic marauding through Sandymount. Though you might get more people using Ailesbury road or Simmonscount to go through Sandymount

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • #112
    PaulieC
    Registered Users Posts: 6,183 ✭✭✭PaulieC


    silverharp wrote: »
    in theory it shouldnt be too bad, its the traffic heading in the direction of town or the east link would be affected, as it is you cant turn right at to go to sandymount from the merrion road except at merrion gates so would just be more gridlock on the merrion road.
    Im guessing some people are thinking the lane closed will mean traffic cant go south so picture the east link traffic marauding through Sandymount. Though you might get more people using Ailesbury road or Simmonscount to go through Sandymount

    Not sure if you are familiar with the volume of traffic that uses the Strand/Beach Roads in normal times, but many times the backup goes as far back as the tower and has on occasion stretched across the merrion gates. There is no way on earth that Tritonville Road leading onto Church Ave. could cope with that volume. Same applies to Bath Ave./Londonbridge Road (via Shelbourne Rd/Haddington Rd.).
    I get the aspiration and hope that removing a lane would entice people out of their cars, but given the current purpose of that road, it's not going to have a huge effect. It would work better in the village as that has naturally got more locally based traffic.


  • #113
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,838 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    PaulieC wrote: »
    Not sure if you are familiar with the volume of traffic that uses the Strand/Beach Roads in normal times, but many times the backup goes as far back as the tower and has on occasion stretched across the merrion gates. There is no way on earth that Tritonville Road leading onto Church Ave. could cope with that volume. Same applies to Bath Ave./Londonbridge Road (via Shelbourne Rd/Haddington Rd.).
    I get the aspiration and hope that removing a lane would entice people out of their cars, but given the current purpose of that road, it's not going to have a huge effect. It would work better in the village as that has naturally got more locally based traffic.

    I certainly agree that there isnt much in the way of detour roads, All the roads near Star of the Sea church or Irishtown are tiny. What are people doing in the morning if using the Stand road into the city? , its either the Eastlink or heading into town through Ringsend or alternate from the merrion road and work around Ballsbridge. All I can see is the traffic would grind slower on the Merrion road or duel carriage way, the East link would be unusable so southside traffic wanting to go North would go through town or M50.
    Ive seen it if there is ever a problem with the EastLink the traffic backs up all the way down Bath Ave which then backs the traffic back up to the village.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #114
    Seaswimmer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,985 ✭✭✭Seaswimmer


    silverharp wrote: »
    I certainly agree that there isnt much in the way of detour roads, All the roads near Star of the Sea church or Irishtown are tiny. What are people doing in the morning if using the Stand road into the city? , its either the Eastlink or heading into town through Ringsend or alternate from the merrion road and work around Ballsbridge. All I can see is the traffic would grind slower on the Merrion road or duel carriage way, the East link would be unusable so southside traffic wanting to go North would go through town or M50.
    Ive seen it if there is ever a problem with the EastLink the traffic backs up all the way down Bath Ave which then backs the traffic back up to the village.

    We are probably a typical example of people who regularly use the Eastlink. Living Deansgrange area , inlaws living in Howth and other relations in Santry. We should really use the M50 but the Eastlink is handier. However if the Sandymount scheme were to go ahead then obviously the M50 would be our default. I would guess that a large proportion of the Strand Road traffic could use the M50 but like us choose the easier option.
    The majority using the Eastlink you would assume are heading Northside rather than the city centre or the port so the M50 is probably a realistic option for most of the Strand Road traffic


  • #115
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,694 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Seaswimmer wrote: »
    We are probably a typical example of people who regularly use the Eastlink. Living Deansgrange area , inlaws living in Howth and other relations in Santry. We should really use the M50 but the Eastlink is handier. However if the Sandymount scheme were to go ahead then obviously the M50 would be our default. I would guess that a large proportion of the Strand Road traffic could use the M50 but like us choose the easier option.
    The majority using the Eastlink you would assume are heading Northside rather than the city centre or the port so the M50 is probably a realistic option for most of the Strand Road traffic

    Why not just use the Sam Beckett bridge? That's what I use if ever driving back from Southside


  • #116
    Seaswimmer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,985 ✭✭✭Seaswimmer


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    Why not just use the Sam Beckett bridge? That's what I use if ever driving back from Southside

    True but I always find the bit of Pearse St and the right turn down Macken St and across the Beckett bridge takes a fair bit longer. Far easier to stay on the Eastlink if heading Howth direction..


  • #117
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,694 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I head that way too but there's minimal difference, and it's free.


  • #118
    DoraDelite
    Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭DoraDelite


    Seaswimmer wrote: »
    We are probably a typical example of people who regularly use the Eastlink. Living Deansgrange area , inlaws living in Howth and other relations in Santry. We should really use the M50 but the Eastlink is handier. However if the Sandymount scheme were to go ahead then obviously the M50 would be our default. I would guess that a large proportion of the Strand Road traffic could use the M50 but like us choose the easier option.
    The majority using the Eastlink you would assume are heading Northside rather than the city centre or the port so the M50 is probably a realistic option for most of the Strand Road traffic

    Same, live in Drumcondra and use it to get to Wicklow/Dublin mountains. It's not particularly quicker, I just find it nicer to drive than the M50. I am happy to switch to the M50 instead, I can't stand Pearse St/Macken St as routes to drive so I generally avoid them.

    Anecdotally, most of the cars in front or behind me on these trips are heading in the same direction as me for most of these journeys so I think there's a lot more journeys that could be facilitated by the M50 than most people think.


  • #119
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,775 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Checkmate?

    https://twitter.com/dublincycling/status/1348952873334411265


  • #120
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,776 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Checkmate?

    https://twitter.com/dublincycling/status/1348952873334411265

    Not sure that interest groups can 'checkmate' anyone.

    If any checkmates arise, it'll be in a hearing room at An Bord Pleanála or a chamber of the High Court.


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  • #121
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,049 ✭✭✭buffalo


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Checkmate?

    https://twitter.com/dublincycling/status/1348952873334411265

    While I obviously respect democratic process, this request to revisit a plan from five years ago that was investigated and then evaluated as infeasible is nonsense. Has anything since then changed, bar the need to reduce polluting motor traffic becoming even more urgent?

    I feel like the councillors pushing it should be censured for wasting time - pure stalling tactics. I presume once the letter is written, they'll ask for the trial to be delayed pending a response?


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