Am i f**ked?

Psychedelic Hedgehog · 19-01-2021 4:57pm

When the bean counters hold sway over the engineers, the price drops but the quality suffers if the quality processes in place are not good enough to compensate.

Witness the decline in quality from Mercedes over the past 25-30 years.

Poulgorm · 19-01-2021 9:01pm

New cars are now unbelievably complicated. To the extent that faults often can't be pinpointed. Mechanics get a hunch and try a fix, with no guarantee it will work. And if the fix doesn't work, you pay anyway.

It is getting to the stage that they are almost throwaway, after a few years. The more high tech they are, the more unreliable they are. It has got to the stage that buying a second-hand German car is insanity.

They are gone the way of domestic appliances. Except that domestic appliances have dropped in price (in real terms) over the years.

punisher5112 · 19-01-2021 9:23pm

If only beko or lg made cars, they'd near never break.....

Isambard · 19-01-2021 10:40pm

Poulgorm wrote: »

New cars are now unbelievably complicated. To the extent that faults often can't be pinpointed. Mechanics get a hunch and try a fix, with no guarantee it will work. And if the fix doesn't work, you pay anyway.

It is getting to the stage that they are almost throwaway, after a few years. The more high tech they are, the more unreliable they are. It has got to the stage that buying a second-hand German car is insanity.

They are gone the way of domestic appliances. Except that domestic appliances have dropped in price (in real terms) over the years.

yeah but a leak isn't rocket science.

Stallingrad · 20-01-2021 11:16am

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

How, over nearly 50 years have they and other manufacturers not refined and evolved their cars to eliminate simple things like water ingress?

Cost cutting. The F10 shares the same bulkhead pressing for both left and right hand drive. On RHD versions the hole in the sheet metal for the LHD steering column has the dreaded yellow grommit. The scuttle drains run right in front of it, and when they are clogged (as they all do) water pools and eventually the grommit fails. All F10's and F11s will eventually let water in unless remedied. BMW are well aware of the issue.

The new G30 has the same bulkead design, but the water is channeled away from the grommit.

If you have an F10/F11 you better get that grommit sealed, add new drain holes to the covering panel, and get used to hoovering out the crud that builds up on both sides of the bulkhead. I've done three of these, and each one was blocked, one had already flooded the car.

MarcusP12 · 20-01-2021 12:31pm

Stallingrad wrote: »

Cost cutting. The F10 shares the same bulkhead pressing for both left and right hand drive. On RHD versions the hole in the sheet metal for the LHD steering column has the dreaded yellow grommit. The scuttle drains run right in front of it, and when they are clogged (as they all do) water pools and eventually the grommit fails. All F10's and F11s will eventually let water in unless remedied. BMW are well aware of the issue.

The new G30 has the same bulkead design, but the water is channeled away from the grommit.

If you have an F10/F11 you better get that grommit sealed, add new drain holes to the covering panel, and get used to hoovering out the crud that builds up on both sides of the bulkhead. I've done three of these, and each one was blocked, one had already flooded the car.

That's really interesting and explains that yellow gromit thingy.....so is it for the steering columns or whatever to go through then depending on if it is LHD or RHD? I'd assume the BMW garage are familiar with this and will hone in on it? How likely does anyone think that BMW themselves will help out with any "repairs" since its clearly a design flaw (assuming this is the issue)? i.e. how hard should i push BMW garage for a deal?

Stallingrad · 20-01-2021 1:26pm

MarcusP12 wrote: »

That's really interesting and explains that yellow gromit thingy.....so is it for the steering columns or whatever to go through then depending on if it is LHD or RHD? I'd assume the BMW garage are familiar with this and will hone in on it? How likely does anyone think that BMW themselves will help out with any "repairs" since its clearly a design flaw (assuming this is the issue)? i.e. how hard should i push BMW garage for a deal?

48 pages on the issue here.
https://forum.bmw5.co.uk/topic/116098-heavy-rain-water-leak/

While certainly a design flaw that they know of, whether the will do anything for you is another matter, as water ingress is thought of differently from a mechanical failure that is easier to prove and quantity. Also in your case in could be a failed door membrane, as these also fail. But mostly it's the grommit, and the water ends up in the rear footwells and is misdiagnosed as a door membrane problem.

Going in fully informed will certainly increase your chances of goodwill.

MarcusP12 · 20-01-2021 1:32pm

Stallingrad wrote: »

48 pages on the issue here.
https://forum.bmw5.co.uk/topic/116098-heavy-rain-water-leak/

While certainly a design flaw that they know of, whether the will do anything for you is another matter, as water ingress is thought of differently from a mechanical failure that is easier to prove and quantity. Also in your case in could be a failed door membrane, as these also fail. But mostly it's the grommit, and the water ends up in the rear footwells and is misdiagnosed as a door membrane problem.

Going in fully informed will certainly increase your chances of goodwill.

Thanks for that.....yeah thats kind of why i'm going to BMW for the diagnosis....i just felt that the garage i was with for the suspension fix (which to be fair seemed to get it through the NCT but still don't feel any difference in the firmness) hadn't look into the issue and were just assuming it was coming from the door because that where the water had ponded/collected. When i mentioned the yellow gromit issue they were quite dismissive which i was a bit surprised by when they hadn't even taken the door apart to investigate....

Stallingrad · 20-01-2021 1:36pm

MarcusP12 wrote: »

Thanks for that.....yeah thats kind of why i'm going to BMW for the diagnosis....i just felt that the garage i was with for the suspension fix (which to be fair seemed to get it through the NCT but still don't feel any difference in the firmness) hadn't look into the issue and were just assuming it was coming from the door because that where the water had ponded/collected. When i mentioned the yellow gromit issue they were quite dismissive which i was a bit surprised by when they hadn't even taken the door apart to investigate....

If you don't get anywhere with them fixing the grommit, it is an easy enough DIY job, awkward to access, but not rocket science. An hour tops and at least you know it is done.

lawred2 · 20-01-2021 1:42pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

All cars get condensation, people suggest using an old sock filled with cat litter to get rid of that. I think you are going to have to find the source of the water leakage to make any determination about who the fault lies with to follow up. Does the door membrane imply the car was damaged in an accident?

Reminds me; I once went to get the spare tyre out of a car I had and the wheel well in the boot was half full with water No idea how it got like that and I had to pump it out. Never happened since - total mystery...

Focus MkIII?

Had the same happen to me - water was getting in through a pin hole in some perished seam sealer... was some job trying to isolate it

that was after I'd investigated all the other usual avenues of water ingress associated with Focus MkIIIs... vents and failing seals at the rear light cluster

lawred2 · 20-01-2021 1:45pm

bmwfan wrote: »

you are covered under the sale of goods act and if the repair is less then 2k you can ask the garage that sold the car to pay if they say no you pay it and lodge a case
I've been in the small claims court for non car related stuff and I was 16th on the list I got to see 3 garages go through before me and the claimant won each case
This is no guarantee you will win but if you have a valid case the judge on my day seemed very far

not actually disputing you but can you detail how he is covered before you send him off down such a costly path?

Eric Cartman · 21-01-2021 10:17am

Psychedelic Hedgehog wrote: »

When the bean counters hold sway over the engineers, the price drops but the quality suffers if the quality processes in place are not good enough to compensate.

Witness the decline in quality from Mercedes over the past 25-30 years.

All manufacturers suffer this though.

Nissan will probably never make something as solid as the bluebird , mercedes the w126, bmw the e38, toyota the 80s hilux etc.. ever again

Consumer demands, just on time manufacturing universalising parts between lhd and rhd , increased safety standards and a demand for better fuel economy making cars lighter have caused this.

vintagevrs · 21-01-2021 11:39am

We have had two f10s that had a soaked rear foot well. Both were caused by seals in the door. First sign was when opening the door water would come from underside of door. The issue for us at least was the drains getting blocked. Door cavity filling with water to where membrane was and then membrane eventually failing. The membrane is higher than the sill so the water then leaked into the interior. I read at the time about the yellow thing in bulk head but for both of ours it was the membrane in the door.

It's an easy DIY fix. Remove door card, unblock drains and get sealant for membrane. I didn't bother going to anyone with it. We had no damage though other than wet mats.

Where are the adaptive suspension components that got wet from this?

MarcusP12 · 21-01-2021 1:30pm

vintagevrs wrote: »

We have had two f10s that had a soaked rear foot well. Both were caused by seals in the door. First sign was when opening the door water would come from underside of door. The issue for us at least was the drains getting blocked. Door cavity filling with water to where membrane was and then membrane eventually failing. The membrane is higher than the sill so the water then leaked into the interior. I read at the time about the yellow thing in bulk head but for both of ours it was the membrane in the door.

It's an easy DIY fix. Remove door card, unblock drains and get sealant for membrane. I didn't bother going to anyone with it. We had no damage though other than wet mats.

Where are the adaptive suspension components that got wet from this?

Thanks for sharing your experience...i've never noticed and water around the bottom of the door....i suppose bringing it to BMW direct should at least diagnose the problem you'd hope....i'll see from there....

I don't really know whether the adaptive suspension was affected by the water issue....the rewiring and resetting to factory settings seemed to fix whatever was causing the imbalance in the NCT test anyway, thats as much as i know...

Cheensbo · 21-01-2021 5:59pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

All manufacturers suffer this though.

Nissan will probably never make something as solid as the bluebird , mercedes the w126, bmw the e38, toyota the 80s hilux etc.. ever again

Consumer demands, just on time manufacturing universalising parts between lhd and rhd , increased safety standards and a demand for better fuel economy making cars lighter have caused this.

This,

Plus, obsolescence keeps the bean counters & engineers in jobs, no point building the perfect product if it puts you out of business. I guess..

Eric Cartman · 22-01-2021 12:35am

Cheensbo wrote: »

This,

Plus, obsolescence keeps the bean counters & engineers in jobs, no point building the perfect product if it puts you out of business. I guess..

Absolutely. Every manufacturer has consumable cars for consumer, will a kia rio ever become a time honored classic worth preserving - absolutely not, nor will a 1 series bmw, a class merc etc.. the only ones worth building to remain going are the flagships.

Its why 70% of rolls royces ever built are still on the road (87% if you exclude US models) but we scrap nissans back to steel after 15 years without question.

kirving · 22-01-2021 11:56am

Working in automotive manufacturing - from top manufacturers to the bottom - quality is number one at all times. No question. Why? Because it costs too much to fail. Cost is a very close second. A single failure within the warranty period will cost the supplier dozens of times the cost of the part.

But the definition of "quality" is where things differ. I think most people will agree, that any Toyota will have less failures over it's life on similar components than any Rolls Royce. That's quality. The sheer amount of amount of paint and metal will mean that the Rolls will take longer to rust away than the Toyota. That's quality.

But in years gone by, there is no way the same number of people could afford a new, reliable car as can do so today. That might come at the price of longevity, but a 5 year warranty on a car you can buy for under 15k is an exceptional achievement by any standard - even if it is an i10.

newmember2 · 22-01-2021 9:53pm

Just as an aside...did you do a full history check on this car before or since you've bought it?

MarcusP12 · 08-02-2021 3:52pm

Just a note to update on where this ended up for anyone interested.....so i went back to the garage i bought the car and out of goodwill they agreed to contribute to the leak fix....decided to go to BMW main dealer to get sorted so they took the car in for a diagnosis and concluded that the water was getting in through the yellow gromit and NOT the door membrane the other crowd had suspected. So the main dealer got in touch with BMW HQ and between the jigs and reels they agreed to a modest enough cost for it to be fixed, i.e. inspection cost and 1 hr labour.....got back to the dealer i bought to explain how the leak cost wasn't as bad as feared but fair play, they still honored the contribution so all in all it cost relatively little if you ignore the cost to sort the suspension.....you can argue that i shouldnt have faced these costs but it is what it is and feel relieved that it all was sorted at a manageable cost to me thanks to decency from the garage i bought from and a surprising amount of good will from BMW themselves through the main dealer.....

Stallingrad · 08-02-2021 7:35pm

What about drying the interior out, 1 hour sounds well short of what's required. Did they replace the grommit or just clean and seal it? Also if the didn't cut remedial drainage holes in the cover over the grommit it's going to happen again in time. It's such a balls of a design.

MarcusP12 · 08-02-2021 7:40pm

Stallingrad wrote: »

What about drying the interior out, 1 hour sounds well short of what's required. Did they replace the grommit or just clean and seal it? Also if the didn't cut remedial drainage holes in the cover over the grommit it's going to happen again in time. It's such a balls of a design.

They had the car for a couple of days drying with fans......the 1hr was just to source for the fault....they replaced the gromit as far as i know as he made a point of saying that i was in luck as they had the piece in stock but otherwise would have taken a couple of weeks to get....floor feels fine so i can only assume they did a decent job at drying it though i suspect its very hard to fully remove it....just gotta hope they knew what they were doing such that it wouldn't happen again.....really shouldn't have been in that position for a 4 and a bit year old car so i'm glad it didnt cost me too much of my own money to sort...

MarcusP12 · 08-02-2021 7:41pm

Folks, Thanks for all the advice and suggestions btw.....

Am i f**ked?

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