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Gardai should be removed from all 'traffic' work..

2

Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    In Germany you have the Polizei and the Ordnungsamt.
    Ordnungsamt will be the ones giving you fines for small stuff normally but Polizei can do that also. It leaves the Polizei free for the important task of proper Policing.

    https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/ordnungsamt/

    That reads as them being traffic wardens and council enforcement officers.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Victor wrote: »
    Common, made-up reasons used by narcissists and psychopaths.

    That's where experience comes in.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    foreign wrote: »
    That reads as them being traffic wardens and council enforcement officers.

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnungsamt
    That is a lot more responsibility than just being a Meter Maid.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,282 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    foreign wrote: »
    Or the person on the way to hospital, having a bad day, has been made redundant and has family, or has made a genuine mistake.
    'having a bad day' is not an excuse i like to think should be accepted. and 'genuine mistake' is a bit woolly.
    we're talking about people operating machinery weighing somewhere between on ton and two and a half tons, getting away with operating it in a dangerous manner, often at speed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    In theory I'm for privatising traffic enforcement. It could mostly be done passively without the need for Garda powers. Red light / Yellow Box and speed cameras for example. However the RPU, if anything should be beefed up doing what they do in the UK which is more targeted at preventing criminals moving about with the use on ANPR.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnungsamt
    That is a lot more responsibility than just being a Meter Maid.

    Nothing about roads policing.

    The following tasks are often summarized in the regulatory office: [1] [2]

    commercial office
    noise protection
    Funeral services
    Prosecution of general administrative offenses
    Initiation of the procedure for the placement of mentally ill people
    Weaponry
    Market system
    Monitoring of stationary traffic
    Immigration
    Citizenships and name changes under public law
    Registration office
    Vehicle registration
    Driver's license office
    Homelessness
    Animal welfare
    In a broader sense, you can also

    Ante-mortem and meat inspection
    Official food control
    fire Department


  • Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    brinty wrote: »
    So people breaking the law and being correctly pulled over by AGS RPU are causing people not to interact with them in wider society.

    I've heard it all now.




    I think you've managed to completely miss the point, and yes, my first hand experience is that it is the case.


    But sure just dismiss it if you disagree. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    I know many people who have had a negative experience with Gardai at the roadside, and it puts them off going near the Gardai in general, going forward.

    I note that in the cycling forum as an example, people get worked up when a motorist does something stupid. Generally the guards are pulling someone because of rank stupidity and are only human in regard to their reactions of someone putting people needlessly in danger.

    Now is it possible to come across a Guard in a perpetual bad mood? Absolutely but they're relatively rare in my experience.


  • Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I note that in the cycling forum as an example, people get worked up when a motorist does something stupid. Generally the guards are pulling someone because of rank stupidity and are only human in regard to their reactions of someone putting people needlessly in danger.

    Now is it possible to come across a Guard in a perpetual bad mood? Absolutely but they're relatively rare in my experience.


    The thing is, many people might have a roadside experience were the Garda is fine, but the person being stopped is being done for using their phone (for example).

    Doesn't matter that the person is caught bang to rights, a fine for using the phone "when he could have let me go with a warning" can often create a 'well fcuk them anyway' kind of attitude. Some people are stubborn like this, and will refuse any cooperation with Gardai.

    I live in an area plagued with issues, and Gardai have many a time been around looking for information on things. Many people that would be in a position to help just shrug their shoulders and 'best of luck Garda'.

    I've experienced it several times, with people that I, although i wouldn't be 'friends' with them, i'd be comfortable enough asking to them about it.


    If you completely separated the Gardai from traffic stuff and trivial issues, it would help in this regard.


    It's the same with the Council. Someone gets a parking ticket off the traffic warden and as a result the road sweeper is a prick. A lot of people seem to not be able to distinguish, and spite is more common than you'd think.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,420 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    The thing is, many people might have a roadside experience were the Garda is fine, but the person being stopped is being done for using their phone (for example).

    Doesn't matter that the person is caught bang to rights, a fine for using the phone "when he could have let me go with a warning" can often create a 'well fcuk them anyway' kind of attitude. Some people are stubborn like this, and will refuse any cooperation with Gardai.

    I live in an area plagued with issues, and Gardai have many a time been around looking for information on things. Many people that would be in a position to help just shrug their shoulders and 'best of luck Garda'.

    I've experienced it several times, with people that I, although i wouldn't be 'friends' with them, i'd be comfortable enough asking to them about it.


    If you completely separated the Gardai from traffic stuff and trivial issues, it would help in this regard.


    It's the same with the Council. Someone gets a parking ticket off the traffic warden and as a result the road sweeper is a prick. A lot of people seem to not be able to distinguish, and spite is more common than you'd think.

    But that attitude of 'shruggng their shoulders' and refusing to give information isn't hurting the Gardai, it's hurting their neighbours and victims of crime. They're cutting their nose off to spite the Gardai when being honest the Gardai have no skin in the game anyway. It's not the Garda's house that got burgled or got assaulted. The incident just gets closed off, no witnesses. Off to the next one, meanwhile the injured party is at a loss.

    It's not the job of the Gardai to appease and pander to idiots who can't understand that.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Witcher wrote: »
    But that attitude of 'shruggng their shoulders' and refusing to give information isn't hurting the Gardai, it's hurting their neighbours and victims of crime. They're cutting their nose off to spite the Gardai when being honest the Gardai have no skin in the game anyway. It's not the Garda's house that got burgled or got assaulted. The incident just gets closed off, no witnesses. Off to the next one, meanwhile the injured party is at a loss.

    It's not the job of the Gardai to appease and pander to idiots who can't understand that.

    I think you're missing the point. People aren't uncooperative out of an imagined slight or spite. It's because they they lose belief there is any benefit to be gained in contacting them.

    If you believe you won't be supported. Then you have to approach problems with that mindset.

    If they were a company and I was asked to rate them on my experiences to date I would give them a 3 or 4 out 10 and thats being generous.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    ANPR needs to be ramped up to capture untaxed and uninsured cars on the road, taking these off the road will reduce traffic and claims on the uninsured driver fund we all pay in to.

    It's the same people all the time ,sending fines to what in a lot of cases is a non existent name is just a waste of resources,
    GoSafe is nothing more than a retirement home for old guards, sit on their arses in the back of a transit in nice handy spots ,usually close to a limit change, GoSafe would be the company anyone should be considering for anything unless you are in doughnut sales


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,280 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    It's the same people all the time ,sending fines to what in a lot of cases is a non existent name is just a waste of resources,
    GoSafe is nothing more than a retirement home for old guards, sit on their arses in the back of a transit in nice handy spots ,usually close to a limit change, GoSafe would be the company anyone should be considering for anything unless you are in doughnut sales

    Do you go through a lot of voltarol carrying that huge chip on your shoulder? I know of no retired GS working with GoSafe. If there was, less of their cases would be getting thrown out of court.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Dohvolle wrote: »
    Do you go through a lot of voltarol carrying that huge chip on your shoulder? I know of no retired GS working with GoSafe. If there was, less of their cases would be getting thrown out of court.

    I know the ex-guard that drives the one around here, and the one that did it before him, no chips just facts,


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,420 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    beauf wrote: »
    I think you're missing the point. People aren't uncooperative out of an imagined slight or spite. It's because they they lose belief there is any benefit to be gained in contacting them.

    If you believe you won't be supported. Then you have to approach problems with that mindset.

    If they were a company and I was asked to rate them on my experiences to date I would give them a 3 or 4 out 10 and thats being generous.

    That's not the argument KKV made. You've a different argument entirely.
    Doesn't matter that the person is caught bang to rights, a fine for using the phone "when he could have let me go with a warning" can often create a 'well fcuk them anyway' kind of attitude. Some people are stubborn like this, and will refuse any cooperation with Gardai.

    I live in an area plagued with issues, and Gardai have many a time been around looking for information on things. Many people that would be in a position to help just shrug their shoulders and 'best of luck Garda'.

    'The Gardai didn't let me off with a warning so I won't be helping them.' You're not helping the Gardai you're helping the victims of crime.


  • Site Banned Posts: 113 ✭✭Dunfyy


    Private companies should not issue tickets you get corruption involved
    Tickets are for safety not profits


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,282 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    and we've not seen corruption in the gardai before now?


  • Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Witcher wrote: »
    But that attitude of 'shruggng their shoulders' and refusing to give information isn't hurting the Gardai, it's hurting their neighbours and victims of crime. They're cutting their nose off to spite the Gardai when being honest the Gardai have no skin in the game anyway. It's not the Garda's house that got burgled or got assaulted. The incident just gets closed off, no witnesses. Off to the next one, meanwhile the injured party is at a loss.

    It's not the job of the Gardai to appease and pander to idiots who can't understand that.

    (this comment was longer than i anticipated, and is a bit ramble-y in parts :o)


    I don't doubt that Gardai, being hindered in their progress, is a bad thing for the local community as a whole. People are, as a general rule of thumb, shortsighted.

    However, the point still stands. For example, there was a fairly major newsworthy incident recently (national news) in my area. There were people that absolutely could have assisted, had they been bothered, but they have had bad experience with the Gardai (they're not a family of hardened criminals, so presumably from 'normal' interactions) but they opted to not answer the door when the gardai came around looking for assistance, and just ignored them, when they actually did have 'useful' information.

    Is it the victim of the crime that's being hurt more than the Gardai? Yeah, of course. The Gardai likely don't care either way. Whether you help them or not, they're clocking off in two hours. But it's a resentment to the Gardai that gets bred, that doesn't prove useful.

    My anecdotal experience is that this would be commonly at traffic stops. It's not statistical proof, of course.



    Similar is the issue of Gardai not responding to calls. I live in an area where the Gardai will tell you over the phone they are busy with something but will get up to you shortly, only to never appear.

    I, personally, rang the Gardai on a 999 call about 2 years back, and had to ring again 45 minutes later. Two hours later I still hadn't seen a Garda, so i rang again. Two hours after a 999 call i was told they'd be with me 'shortly'. I told them not to bother. I'm persistent, so i'd ring them again, anyway, but when I relayed this story to a neighbour of mine, she informed me the same had happened her before, so she just doesn't ring them anymore at all and has no interest in dealing with them.

    I appreciate this is a bit of a step away in discussion to removal of Gardai from traffic work, but it's still demonstrable that poor interaction with Gardai will shadow people's future interactions (or lack thereof).

    To many people, the Gardai are a single person. Much like if your first experience with a black person, or traveller, or doctor, etc. is negative, it makes you weary of future interactions as you're always on edge. If you rarely interact with the Gardai, but you are left with a sour taste in your mouth after initially having to deal with them, it doesn't help your attitude towards them going forward (not that I expect all Gardai to be amazing all the time).


    But my post here is more just a 'thinking out loud' post. I just wanted to hear what others thought of the idea.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,282 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    well, there's absolutely no way we should be tying up the time of an actual garda on tasks that can be automated.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Witcher wrote: »
    That's not the argument KKV made. You've a different argument entirely.



    'The Gardai didn't let me off with a warning so I won't be helping them.' You're not helping the Gardai you're helping the victims of crime.

    Not really. If someone got fined for using a phone but believed contacting the Authorities over some other issue would get a positive result for them, they would do it. Maybe not all the time but most of the time. But when people who haven't any skin in the game don't believe it's beneficial to contact the authorities I think theres systemic issues. Putting it down to grudges is too simplistic and looking through rose tinted glasses.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 78,239 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Dunfyy wrote: »
    Private companies should not issue tickets you get corruption involved
    Tickets are for safety not profits

    Ahem https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/eight-garda%C3%AD-suspended-as-part-of-corruption-investigation-1.4403586


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Dunfyy wrote: »
    Private companies should not issue tickets you get corruption involved
    Tickets are for safety not profits

    It's a known fact that there is corruption in the Gardai around tickets and no-one seems all that bothered.

    But the mere idea of a private company doing it and all sorts of wild suggestions start flying around and suddenly people are extremely concerned what could happen


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,280 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    salonfire wrote: »
    It's a known fact that there is corruption in the Gardai around tickets and no-one seems all that bothered.

    But the mere idea of a private company doing it and all sorts of wild suggestions start flying around and suddenly people are extremely concerned what could happen

    "known fact"
    1i5ap0.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,346 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    YFlyer wrote: »
    At least the fines aren't too hefty.

    Yes, not hefty enough to change behaviour, which somewhat defeats the purpose.

    We need fines WITH penalty points, and an effective disqualification system.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,346 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Interesting example this morning - Garda car drives blissfully past line of five vehicles illegally parked on double-yellows and footpath on Shelbourne Road.

    553131.jpg

    553132.jpg

    553133.jpg

    Something's not working here.

    I did report the parking to the clampers, but they were all 'busy' - tow truck, two vans and a bunch of lads having a good oul chat by the canal.

    553134.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,267 ✭✭✭source


    Mod snip: Removed quoted pictures

    Once again, AGS tend to leave minor parking infringements like this to the local parking enforcement authority, that's their sole job. AGS deal with far more than parking issues and it's likely this car was in its way to another job.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭FGR


    There are pros and cons to separating AGS from the roads policing role.

    The pros would be that an independent 'Highway Patrol' would be dedicated to the one particular job and allow AGS to focus on other matters.

    The cons would be that a fully seperate body will require a lot of investment and duplication of what already exists in AGS - new headquarters, managers, supervisors, stations etc which would mean a lot more cost.

    It depends on if the public would be willing to pay for it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 879 ✭✭✭Get Real


    Mod snip: Removed quoted pictures

    Say the car is on the way to a shoplifter being held by security. Do they stop off at every minor thing on the way?

    Using that logic, there'd be endless stopping. When they're driving, they're going to a queue of call after call generally. That'd be even worse if they pulled in every time a car is on double yellows or a cyclist breaks a red light.

    All the more reason for a separate body to deal with these offences.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Mod snip: Removed quoted pictures

    In fairness, there is nothing interesting about those examples.
    The police and clampers may have been busy doing something more important.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It should also be noted that the Gardaí don't have to stop to issue fcpns for parking. They can just note the registration number and issue later.


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