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18-10-2019, 22:42   #76
Marcusm
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Originally Posted by o1s1n View Post
Bit of a difference in being able to say your degree came from an 'I.T' and an institution with university status.

If I were a student, I know which I would rather.
So you’d attribute little value to an MIT degree because it is not called a university?
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19-10-2019, 14:27   #77
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So you’d attribute little value to an MIT degree because it is not called a university?
MIT is not an IT in the sense in which it is used in this country. I'd be very surprised to see someone with a trunk in his car in here, since elephant poaching is frowned upon. MIT is a university. Galway/Mayo IT is not.
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19-10-2019, 14:37   #78
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+100%

There are two many students at university.

People with 300 points are not able for uni, and shouldn't be allowed in.

Are we doing them any favour letting them do Arts with 300 points, and getting 45% in their degree?

This costs the taxpayer and them maybe €40,000.

Is that the wisest use of the 40k, when the country is crying out for skilled tradespeople?
I have a brother who had a frankly disasterous leaving, but pulled himself together, finished top of his class in a good course in an IT, and now has a very successful professional career. It is tough to say that no-one under a cutoff deserves a second chance.

I broadly agree with you though, that we undervalue vocational training in this country. I'm not sure why anyone is doing a BA in Culinary Arts at Dundalk (165 points this year) instead of training as a chef. Not to discount the course entirely - they seem to useful things around hygeine, nutrition, management, etc. but those are the kinds of things I'd expect chefs to get certified in from 1-day professional training courses and the like. The DoE paying Dundalk IT €20k+ to send each student there for 3 years doesn't seem like the most efficient use of money, and you have to imagine a lot of the folks getting in with under 200 points don't really enjoy a classroom setting and many would be happier serving their time in a kitchen.
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19-10-2019, 16:15   #79
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This is not America (shalalalalaa) or the UK - not a hoot is given whether your business degree is from UCC or CIT. And ITs have more of a hard work ethos. They're a lot stricter about attendance.
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That is not a correct comparison.

An IoT here should be compared with a community college in the USA.
Can you get a degree at a community college?
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19-10-2019, 16:17   #80
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Nobody buys it anyway. We all know there are only three universities worthy of the name : Oxford, Cambridge, Hull.
Oxford is a complete dump.
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19-10-2019, 16:46   #81
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I think areas like engineering and science are less prone to it because they are held to standards by independent bodies such as engineers ireland and they are pretty decent at auditing courses, and you must reapply for them to be recognised every few years. They have withheld certification from some courses if they did not feel the content being taught was at the appropriate level.

However business, arts and social sciences i would have my suspicions about some of the courses. I am sure most people would agree that there is an agrument to be made that these courses shouldnt be under the remit of the ITs anyway.
Have to agree with this 100%. I went to DIT, and did a course that was certified by Engineers Ireland. After the recession, the points for the course we're relatively low for all "engineering" type courses.

The problem for many ITs is that due to low points numbers (allowing people in who just aren't able for it) and a requirement for student numbers in second year onwards.

When the students fail, the smaller IT's are under severe pressure to keep on students who just aren't able for the course.

I have to say for DIT, under no circumstances would they lower standards of the course to allow people to pass. They were big enough to ride out a couple of years of low points and lower quality students, and were very well aware that allowing poor students would cause untold reputational damage in the long term.
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19-10-2019, 19:50   #82
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Originally Posted by Geuze View Post
Yes, Germany has far fewer in uni, yet he has much lower youth unemployment.

Do you have anymore background information on that chart? I know Ireland has poor record when it come to offering apprenticeships and other forms of training to its workforce, but I would never have figured it was that bad - the worst in fact.
What do the other 90% do?
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19-10-2019, 19:57   #83
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Originally Posted by o1s1n View Post
Bit of a difference in being able to say your degree came from an 'I.T' and an institution with university status.

If I were a student, I know which I would rather.
Depends. Several people who studied 'computers' in DIT and have told me when looking for a Job in the USA, they think Dublin Institute of Technology is the Irish version of MIT.
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19-10-2019, 21:22   #84
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MIT is not an IT in the sense in which it is used in this country. I'd be very surprised to see someone with a trunk in his car in here, since elephant poaching is frowned upon. MIT is a university. Galway/Mayo IT is not.
I would agree with this but I think DIT should have been retained as a name and spend the rebranding money on additional resources.
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20-10-2019, 09:20   #85
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Depends. Several people who studied 'computers' in DIT and have told me when looking for a Job in the USA, they think Dublin Institute of Technology is the Irish version of MIT.
I don't think it's an accident that the Irish government, while on a major drive to attract FDI from American multinationals, chose to rebrand the RTCs as "Institutes of Technology." To an American audience, who associate "Institute of Technology" with the likes of MIT and Cal Tech, this name change made these institutions sound more prestigious and elite than the glorified community colleges they essentially are.

Of course, they soon figured it out. Google at one point was reported to be recruiting only from universities and binning all the CVs they got from graduates of ITs.
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21-10-2019, 10:49   #86
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Do you have anymore background information on that chart? I know Ireland has poor record when it come to offering apprenticeships and other forms of training to its workforce, but I would never have figured it was that bad - the worst in fact.
What do the other 90% do?

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/pr...ws%2Fwhats-new

Note the chart is referring to 2nd level education.
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22-10-2019, 09:43   #87
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Fromthe ones I've been to ITs tended to have lower quality facilities, poorer student unions, less intellectually/accademically focused. I've attended NCI and the quality of lecturers was shockingly bad compared to Maynooth. I wouldn't have even said Maynooth was great either.
1st The NCI is not an IT. In fact I would argue that many of its course offerings, particularly the "arts" type courses have no place in an IT.

2nd Personally I couldn't care less about the student union and its perceived quality. I suspect the vast majority of students do either and I struggle to see how it would impact on the quality a course.

3rd IT's are not universities, (nor in my mind should they be) they were never meant to be purely academic institutions. They provided a very different, but no less valid, type of education. (from an industry point of view actually in many cases more valid). They are \ were supposed to be more flexible, and adaptable to the needs of industry and be able to adapt their courses to suit the current and future needs of industry,


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To phrase the question differently then, when they all have to be academically and theory focused to meet the standards of universities who will provide practical skills?
Here we are closer to agreement. Practical skills can be taught on the factory floor or via apprenticeships. its the unique blend of practical and theoretical skills that the old RTC's provided that Industry craved..

In the old days of RTC's they were primarily engineering geared institutes with IT courses and some business. It all started to change as they introduced more of the non "technology" courses and became "universities lite.."
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22-10-2019, 09:53   #88
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I dont think your view on this is fair or balanced. The leaving cert is not a good indication of ones academic prowess or intelligence.
I agree it has little or no relevance to ones intelligence but to be fair it is a decent indicator of ones academic aptitude.

A university degree is a purely academic route.

IT's should provide an alternative route, through a mix of more practical and academic learning.. At a later stage you may decide to progress down the academic route and the training \ education gained from the IT should give you a good foundation on which to build.

All education paths do not need to be isolated and there should be (and to be fair are now far more) links between them to allow people to transfer between paths..

At the moment all apprenticeships are considered a level 6 qualification. There is no reason why some of these could not with additional academic study (either by night during the apprenticeship or after the apprenticeship) be upgraded to level 7 with a path to level 8. Once there its wide open to level 9 and up.
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22-10-2019, 09:58   #89
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I agree it has little or no relevance to ones intelligence but to be fair it is a decent indicator of ones academic aptitude.

A university degree is a purely academic route.

IT's should provide an alternative route, through a mix of more practical and academic learning.. At a later stage you may decide to progress down the academic route and the training \ education gained from the IT should give you a good foundation on which to build.

All education paths do not need to be isolated and there should be (and to be fair are now far more) links between them to allow people to transfer between paths..

At the moment all apprenticeships are considered a level 6 qualification. There is no reason why some of these could not with additional academic study (either by night during the apprenticeship or after the apprenticeship) be upgraded to level 7 with a path to level 8. Once there its wide open to level 9 and up.
The issue with that is that despite the level 6 being the qualifications for the job it will become by default leven 7 or 8, the level 6 has to be valued in and of its self first so while it should be possible to go on to any level there should be a defined brake between the level 6 and any progression.
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22-10-2019, 10:02   #90
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There is another factor at play as well you can't make people do a course just because they should, for example, there is a severe shortage of chefs the job dose not seem attractive because of the weekend working yet they would neve be unemployed and lots of opportunity for traveling.
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