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Wind turbine experiences - please post here

  • 04-02-2009 8:35pm
    #1
    nuttz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 453 ✭✭


    I am looking into using a wind turbine in a new house build.
    I am hoping to get some information from anyone here with a wind turbine.
    • What KW did you go for?
    • Do you think it would be worthwhile for someone to over estimate on their usage and go for a bigger KW turbine?
    • Did you go for a particular supplier here, (I could only find three distributors of one popular turbine manufacturer)?
    • Did you do the install yourself? if so how much of the install?
    • Did you import the turbine, (even just buying up north)?
    • Is there much maintenance, can you do this yourself?
    • What are your opinions from a noise point of view(if any)?
    • Are you using storage heaters? or something that might benefit from discounted electricity?
    • Is there much wind where you are (m/s)?
    • And more generally, how has it worked out?

    Your help would be very much appreciated.
    Thanks.


«13

Comments

  • #2
    quentingargan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭quentingargan


    First, a declaration of interest - I am currently planning to produce a domestic wind turbine in Ireland, but if I have a bias in the design, it is based on my own experience using one at home for the last six years and on a boat for three years before that.

    To answer your questions

    1) We installed a 2.5kw downwind turbine, probably of the brand you have in mind. At the time there wasn't a snowflakes chance in hell of the ESB buying back surplus power so we went for batteries and an inverter. That is very unsatisfactory as we often end up with more power than our batteries can store, then a week later run out of juice altogether. If doing it again, I would grid connect, especially now that the ESB has agreed to buy back power (see on this board here).

    2) A larger turbine may come in at a lower cost per KW, though of course there will be a greater capital outlay. However, you will be selling a larger percentage of your power. Electricity you use yourself is saving you 16c per KwHr. Electricity you sell back to the ESB is saving you only 9c under their proposal. If that goes up to 16c, then this wouldn't matter. But if you go for a larger generator, most of the additional power will be getting sold at the lower export tariff.

    3) I don't think I should comment.

    4) I self-installed and got help from a distributor for the assembly. Did the foundation, tower assembly, all wiring of inverters batteries etc. Only got help with putting the thing together. A lot of this work is fairly basic DIY stuff. HOWEVER, doing this may push the VAT rate from 13.5% to 21.5%....

    5) I found it as cheap to buy from the local distributor

    6) This particular machine requires greasing each year, and cleaning of the slip rings. I think this is a problem for many. I personally bought the necessary winch (a 2.5 ton Tirfor) and do this myself, but if you were paying an installer a call-out fee, this would put a serious dent into any payback time. To my mind, domestic turbines need to be virtually maintenance free to be viable.

    7) A well designed turbine should be quiet enough not to cause hassle. I did put up a cheap Chinese model here once, and it whistled like a demented banshee. Planning exemptions only apply to turbines that are 5dbA above background noise at the nearest neighbouring residence. Funnily enough, I find turbines more noisy in light wind when the background noise is near zero, and you will hear a slight swishing going on up in the sky.

    8) Forget storage heaters, or using your electricity for heat. I do this on the battery system at present as we have to dump surplus power. However, if you are getting 9c from the ESB for selling surplus power, and your oil fired central heating is costing you 7c per kw hr, it is far better to sell the juice.

    9) Our site is fair, but it isn't fantastic. But personally I would be willing to overlook this. I bought my turbine for €20K six years ago, and that same year spent €500 on a car. My friends thought I was mad, but their €20K cars are worth a bit less today...

    10) Yes, I am pleased to have a turbine. It is a very visible statement of a personal commitment to renewable energy, and I wouldn't mind paying a little more for electricity knowing it comes without environmental costs.

    But you need to have a reasonable site with clean wind and no buildings or trees too close by. There are lots of porkie pies about payback times for systems. You need to do your own calculations. If you know your mean wind speed and the power curve for your turbine, you can estimate the output using a calculator here -

    If you want more info, send me a PM and let me know what part of the country you're in. :)


  • #3
    Matt Simis
    Registered Users Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    Hi Quentin,

    Thanks for the post. Three questions if you will! :

    - At what wind speed is your turbine rated at 2.5Kw?
    - How many batteries are in your bank?

    - You mention Grid tie as now preferable over Battery. I dunno about the OP, but my interest is due to the fact when the ESB grid is down, I have no water (well pump) therefore no heating, cooking etc as well as power. When the main Grid is down, feeding power into it is unsafe (as someone could be working on the line, it may have been intentionally terminated etc). Surely a better system is one that charges the batteries then when they reach capacity "dump" the rest into the grid (as opposed electric heaters) via a relay switch. Presumably battery pricing and technologies are much improved over when you installed yours.


    Not sure why you wont comment on the particular supplier(s).. there is no issue stating facts about Product x, just not bias or conjecture.


  • #4
    quentingargan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭quentingargan


    Hi,

    We aren't sure of the power curve as yet. We are using a non-cogging generator (axial flux) which should give a low startup speed, and we are using an Aurora inverter which has more power point tracking options, so we hope to come in with 2.5kw at about 11 to 12 m/sec. But until we get the testing system up and running, we won't know for sure. Should know in a week or two.

    The batteries come from various vintages. We have 16 12V leisure batteries, each 130Ah - they are a mistake as they are fiddly to top up with water. We than added in a set of 800Ah Forklift batteries. They are a far better arrangement. So that gives us 8X130 +800 ah at 24V - theoretically, 44 KwHr. In practice we don't seem to get anything like that. The problem with batteries is that they have a lower level of efficiency, and inverters working at 24V are also somewhat less efficient.

    Your thinking about having grid and off-grid simoultaneously is good. Unfortunately, none of the inverters that can do this are certified for ESB use (EN50438). Our Trace inverter here is capable of grid feed-in, but we aren't allowed to hook it up.

    I didn't mean to be evasive in not naming the supplier - I sort of never know whether naming people is OK on boards and people seem to usually do this via the PM route. Our supplier who installed the system with me was from Kenmare - really nice guy and I had no issues with him at all, but as I say, I did most of the work on the install, and he supplied the turbine. The manufacture gave him enough discount that he could supply me at a better price then they would.

    Q


  • #5
    JamesGillic
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭JamesGillic


    I'm looking for information on what type of consumer unit you would require and what type of ESB meter you would require in order to connect your wind turbine into the ESB supply? How does the load within your house draw on the wind turbine power rather than the ESB supply? Is this a simple arrangement or do you require a modified consumer unit in order to connect in?


  • #6
    quentingargan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭quentingargan


    JamesGillic wrote: »
    I'm looking for information on what type of consumer unit you would require and what type of ESB meter you would require in order to connect your wind turbine into the ESB supply? How does the load within your house draw on the wind turbine power rather than the ESB supply? Is this a simple arrangement or do you require a modified consumer unit in order to connect in?

    This is fairly straightforward. If you have room for an additional MCB (fuse) in your existing fuseboard, you simply put in an extra MCB and wire the output from the inverter into that. The ESB have dual meters they install for free.

    The process is seamless. If your turbine is producing more electrity than you are using, the electrity gets pushed back up the line and is recorded on your export meter. If you are using more than your turbine produces, the surplus required comes down the line and is recorded on your import meter.

    The only time you might want an extra consumer unit is if you want to install the turbine on some other part of the house. Sometimes people wire it into a shed in which case a fuseboard must be installed at that point. For example your turbine might be on the south side of your house and the existing fuseboard is on the north side. If you want to save running armoured cable all around the garden and have a shed that is conveniently located, providing is is cabled in large enough cable for the current, you can put a fuseboard in that shed. Q


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  • #7
    Independent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭Independent


    Hi all, i am thinking about a wind turbine for my self build. I think my site is ideal facing southwest out to sea and with liitle obstructions. I know there are alot more considerations to take into account, i was wondering what sort of money have people spent and are they happy with return, Thanks.


  • #8
    quentingargan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭quentingargan


    Independent wrote: »
    Hi all, i am thinking about a wind turbine for my self build. I think my site is ideal facing southwest out to sea and with liitle obstructions. I know there are alot more considerations to take into account, i was wondering what sort of money have people spent and are they happy with return, Thanks.
    You'd really have to assess your own site - the return on a site with 7m/sec mean wind speed might be twice what it is for a site with 5m/sec. Also, different turbine power curves may suit different sites. I run a one-day course on doing this if you're interested, send a PM. I can also let you have the info on how to do this assessment without the hassle of the course and can send it as an attachment if you PM an email address;)


  • #9
    lucky-colm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 798 ✭✭✭lucky-colm


    hi
    iam interested in installing a wind turbine for my house but i would be interested in selling excess electricity back into the grid so as to recoup the initial cost quickly and probably make a few quid in the process. iam new to all this and dont know where to start, i checked on different sites and the wind speed for my location is between 6.5m/s and 7.5m/s. my site is fairly open i have forestry to the rear of my house which is north and about 70mtrs away. so the information iam looking for is, what manufacturer supplies the best turbine.
    ie. cheap but reliable,
    quiet but asthetically pleasing,
    low mainteance but high performing,
    also what price range i was looking at a few websites the cheapest started at €14k for a 1.4kw installed upto €30k for a 5.8kw (my average bill is about €250 per mth) is this expensive? iam not to worried about size once it dosn't look like a relic from the cold war communist era. a good backup service from the company and ease of getting spare parts if needed would also be essential. and what size turbine would suit?
    any other information would be usefull.

    thanks


  • #10
    spillcoe
    Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭spillcoe


    I have found some good info on the website http://www.otherpower.com. Has anyone else looked at it? It is a US website so not everything is applicable but it goes into a lot of detail and has some very simple options for people who just want to mess around with renewable power and not spend a whole lot of cash!

    Two questions.

    Would it be possible to mount a turbine on top of existing farm buildings?

    At a rough estimate how much would it cost to have a 2.5Kw turbine installed (everything included)?


  • #11
    quentingargan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭quentingargan


    Hi Spillcoe,

    I would never recommend fitting a turbine to any building, usually the building simply isn't engineered to take the loads, and if the turbine is low enough that the torque on the tower is reduced, then you will have turbulence issues - see here

    You can get 2.5kw turbines at any sort of price from €5K to €20K installed, and generally you get what you pay for (roughly at least). Q


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  • #12
    berireland
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭berireland


    We too have reecently built a new house on a great site from the point
    of view of wind power.

    I have trawled the web looking for wind turbines, in there any Irish produced turbines? Are there any 2.5 KW to 5 KW available at a reasonable price.

    We would have the revelant skills to complete the builders works and installation work ourselves.

    I am from a Engineering Background and Energy Assessment background myself and would welcome any further information.


  • #13
    Cheeble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 224 ✭✭Cheeble


    Hi Berireland,

    Stating the obvious, it depends on what you consider to be, "...a reasonable price."

    I'm not aware of any Irish manufacturers who already have a product on the market, but I do know that there are a lot of people trying to set up to manufacture in Ireland. If this is important to you, it might be worth waiting for six months to a year to see what develops. In the meantime, start logging the wind speed at your site.

    Cheeble-eers.


  • #14
    Cheeble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 224 ✭✭Cheeble


    quentingargan wrote: »
    ....There are lots of porkie pies about payback times for systems.....

    I agree with Quentin, and it's damaging to the credibility of the industry as a whole. I've just come across this:

    "The wind turbine typically lowers your electricity bill by 50 to 90 percent per annum. It is not uncommon for wind turbine owners with total-electric homes to have monthly bills eliminated." (Their emphasis, not mine).

    That doesn't stack up with the sample datasets I've seen coming back from real life installations.

    To anyone thinking of installing a turbine, my opening advice would be to set realistic expectations, and ask for measurements and references from anybody making performance claims.


  • #15
    Doctor_L
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭Doctor_L


    There are a number of suppliers out there for a large variety of wind turbines.

    I have written several articles on Wind Turbines that you might find useful including.

    Wind turbines for irish weather, this includes a link to the European Urban wind turbine manufacturers.
    http://www.irishsilicon.com/2008/04/wind-turbine-considerations-fo.html

    All my entries relating to wind turbines including some photos I took of the new Vestas V90 turbines (Wind farm in tipperary) are available via this link
    http://www.irishsilicon.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-search.cgi?search=wind+turbine&IncludeBlogs=3

    A wind turbine for the irish climate needs to rugged, heavy and robust due to gusts. I would also go for a hydrualic jam/lift for maintenance etc

    Look for evidence that the turbine is built to high standards using quality materials and research. A cheap turbine from China might be light on the pocket will cause grief in the long term, there is plenty of horror stories out there about inferior products. I would also pay attention to user reviews and the company's website which should outline the philosophy behind their design etc

    If I was to go out and price turbines today, I would be look for quotes and information on the following

    ISKRA
    Proven
    www.Turbotricity.com (Quentin Gargans new turbine which is being tested at the moment)
    Skystream

    Hope this helps.

    Liam


  • #16
    De_man
    Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭De_man


    Doctor_L wrote: »
    If I was to go out and price turbines today, I would be look for quotes and information on the following

    ISKRA
    Proven
    www.Turbotricity.com (Quentin Gargans new turbine which is being tested at the moment)
    Skystream

    hi liam, we moved into the house a little over a year ago, rain water harvesting, solar panels etc etc installed...just pricing around at the moment for a 2.5KW machine, for the life of me i can't understand why the huge differences in prices?

    clearly, you have experience in this field any chance you could shed some light on this

    many thanks in advance


  • #17
    Doctor_L
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭Doctor_L


    I can't really explain why turbines are prices are so varied. My gut feeling is that it is a combination of several factors.

    • Like any business some products have the brand name/reputation priced into the product.
    • The components and the quality of build i.e. the heavier and more rugged the turbine the bigger the price.
    • Research and Development costs have to be recouped.
    • Warranties on blades and components etc e.g. I paid a slight bit more for solar panels that had a 10 yr warranty

    I would try and be objective in the comparison. I would use the following features to guide me.

    1- Diameter of blades. Bigger the diameter, the larger the wind swept area.
    2 - Weight of turbine
    3 - Design of turbine does it cut out at high speeds or does it continue operation.
    4 - At what speed m/s was it rated at 2.5 kw.A turbine rated at 12 m/s is different to a turbine rated at 9 or 10 m/s. If turbine A is rated at 13 m/s and turbine B is rated at 9 m/s, turbine A will generate less power at 6 m/s than turbine B.
    5 - A what speed does the inverter kick in and generate power i.e. does it generate power at low wind speeds?
    6 - Estimated output at 3,4,5,6,7,8,9 m/s. The majority of wind at my house would fall in the 3 - 6 m/s range.
    7 - Price of turbine, tower, inverter, installation and grid tie cost
    8 - Warranties on blades, tower etc. Remember your turbine needs to be operational for at least 15 - 20 years.
    9 - Type of tower tied or monopole
    10 - How do you raise lower the tower, hydruallic/crane etc
    11 - Service cost per year (approx)
    12 - Customer support, is there some one who can get to your site next day to address an issue.
    13 - Do you need to oil/grease the turbine on an annual basis.
    14 - Do they have any data on noise

    Before you buy you should go and see them in operation, and talk to the owners.

    The true acid test for any turbine is to record your wind speeds for 1 year and use wind swept area calculations (which uses the diameter) to calculate the number of kw hrs the turbine would generate in 1 year. This will give you a good idea on estimated pay back period.

    At the moment I would sooner buy an affordable 2.5 kw turbine than an expensive 6 kw turbine as I feel they blend better in urban/rural areas and offer a realistic pay back period. Smaller blades also mean that the bottom of the blade has a better probabilty of being taller than the nearest obstacle.

    Regards

    Liam


  • #18
    bladespin
    Registered Users Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭bladespin


    You missed one point Liam, the majority of windturbines on the market are not made here, they're are either imported and rebranded or they are sold through agents both of which add margin to the product.
    Many agents are receiving at least 30%+ as commission and usually a seperate payment for delivery and installation which adds cost to the turbin; take a base price of about €14k add in 30% (€4.2k) and the price jumps up considerably.


  • #19
    De_man
    Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭De_man


    thanks liam & Bladespin for the input, i certainly agree with your points liam
    but as bladespin pointed out high commission costs etc, i know people have
    to live

    but i must do more research on these chinese machines afterall a lot of the components on "western" turbines are made in the east.

    i particularly like the skystream product, but at the moment i simply can't justify the price & payback period, will have to wait until prices come down to some normality. i'd love to be able to shell out the money but i simply can't afford it at the moment

    brings back memories....the family used a windmill to pump water to our old home place until they got water mains:)


  • #20
    Doctor_L
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭Doctor_L


    Hi,

    I have finished measuring wind speed for a year the following article outlines the pay back.

    http://www.irishsilicon.com/2009/04/wind-turbine-payback-calculato-1.html

    Regards

    Liam


  • #21
    Kippure
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭Kippure


    Can i ask why the ESB have capped the out put for domestic wind turbines to 5kw,s when you tweek the electronics you can get 9Kw,s out of them, Or add a extra poles.

    Is it because they dont want you to be totally off grid and they would have to pay you a check for your turbine supplying the grid.

    I thought the esb were going green so to speak or is this all bull.


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  • #22
    bladespin
    Registered Users Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭bladespin


    Kippure wrote: »
    Can i ask why the ESB have capped the out put for domestic wind turbines to 5kw,s when you tweek the electronics you can get 9Kw,s out of them, Or add a extra poles.

    Is it because they dont want you to be totally off grid and they would have to pay you a check for your turbine supplying the grid.

    I thought the esb were going green so to speak or is this all bull.


    A turbine rated above 6kw would be considered a commercial installation, the ESB will still allow connection, you just have to apply for a different (non domestic) connection.

    In Fairness the ESB has given it's support to microgeneration and sustainable living so I don't understand your question above unless you're referring to windfarming.


  • #23
    richiekilkelly
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭richiekilkelly


    Hello, has anybody installed a wizzmill turbine, if so does it do what it says on the tin? http://www.wizzmill.ie thanks.


  • #24
    Doctor_L
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭Doctor_L


    See my article about this product.

    The claims are very dubious.

    http://www.irishsilicon.com/2009/06/wizzmill-are-rating-their-turb.html

    Liam


  • #25
    Cheeble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 224 ✭✭Cheeble


    richiekilkelly wrote: »
    does it do what it says on the tin?

    This is so much cowbreath.

    It's a 1.8m diameter rotor. Lets be generous and say that it's 45% efficient giving it about 3 times the industry average for a turbine of this size. Then let's say it's on a fantastically windy site with Weibull factors 1.9 & 6.5 (like a southwest facing clifftop near the sea). The annual output would be just below 1700kWh.

    So, let's also assume that all of this is used on-site, with 100% efficiency, saving 19c/kWh, so the annual saving is 323 euro. The basic DIY kit costs 1,950, even if you can claim the VAT back, so the payback period under this rose-tinted scenario is six years minimum, not the 2-3 years claimed.

    Under any sort of realistic scenario, it's more likey to be 24 years, and that's if the equipment survives that long with zero maintenance.

    Get real, and stop damaging the credibility of the industry.

    Cheeble-eers

    And by the way, don't ever install a turbine on the gable end of a building without having a structural survey done. Daventry Town Hall in the UK did, and regretted it, "Structural damage to the gable end of this building is suspected to have been caused by the wind turbine and it was removed on 27th May 2008".


  • #26
    richiekilkelly
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭richiekilkelly


    Thanks for that guys what you say adds up, however I have seen it in operation today at their office and for the short length I was ther it seemed to work ok heatig a 100 litre cylinder, good wind today though.
    Think I will take the plunge and monitor it with wind speeds to give you an accurate output.


  • #27
    gman2k
    Registered Users Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭gman2k


    richiekilkelly wrote: »
    Thanks for that guys what you say adds up, however I have seen it in operation today at their office and for the short length I was ther it seemed to work ok heatig a 100 litre cylinder, good wind today though.
    Think I will take the plunge and monitor it with wind speeds to give you an accurate output.

    You do that -new poster-, come on here, ask for advice about a named product/company - which people have proved to be putting out <ahem> dubious info. I hope the plunge goes well :rolleyes:


  • #28
    CORR75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4 ✭CORR75


    Based on research and the above posts why is anyone considering wind turbines in the Republic. The cost and wind profiles of most sites makes it a nice idea but dosen't make financial sense.


  • #29
    richiekilkelly
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭richiekilkelly


    The wizzmill is €1950 + Vat which is not bad if it only does half of what they say it will do. If I came across a 2.5kW grid tied turbine for around €5k I would buy it straight away.


  • #30
    Cheeble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 224 ✭✭Cheeble


    richiekilkelly wrote: »
    The wizzmill is €1950 + Vat which is not bad if it only does half of what they say it will do. If I came across a 2.5kW grid tied turbine for around €5k I would buy it straight away.

    It really is a damning indictement of the state of the industry when we say something is "not bad" for doing only half of what the manufacturers claim it will do.

    Cheeble-eers


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  • #31
    CORR75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4 ✭CORR75


    Its a touch decision on what to go for at the moment with no clear leader. Some very cheap duboius self install kits coming from China. Then on the other side some very high prices on the known turbibes.

    I want to put up a turbine as part of a new build in a an open site with good wind profile but have been recieving mostly BS from most of the suppliers and in relation to payback times. I have also been looking at some of the self build options which looks interesting , what would be great if it was posssibe in conjunction with the ESB to get a turbine and a price per KW that would bring payback close to the 10 Year mark. I will keep my fingers crossed.


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