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Covid payments for Landlords

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  • 07-04-2020 8:38pm
    #1
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,315 ✭✭✭


    Since the Government is rightly assisting those who have lost their income, both PAYE and self employed, due to Covid restrictions, can landlords no longer in receipt of rent also claim for assistance?


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    #2
    Slydice
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭Slydice


    It probably depends on the situation you find yourself in now.

    There's a long citizensinformation page about the covid situation here:
    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/covid19_overview.html

    A lot of 'if you are this' or 'if you are that'. Maybe the page can help.


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    #3
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    Since the Government is rightly assisting those who have lost their income, both PAYE and self employed, due to Covid restrictions, can landlords no longer in receipt of rent also claim for assistance?

    Landlords are categorised as follows,
    Pariahs
    Necessary evil
    Scroungers
    Cruel Dickens type characters
    Wealthy beyond allmeans because they own two properties
    Therefore no tax payers money for them.


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    #4
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    Since the Government is rightly assisting those who have lost their income, both PAYE and self employed, due to Covid restrictions, can landlords no longer in receipt of rent also claim for assistance?


    No. They are landlords. They must pay double tax on last years rent if they are having a hard time


    Joke. But wouldnt surprise me tbh


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    #5
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    Since the Government is rightly assisting those who have lost their income, both PAYE and self employed, due to Covid restrictions, can landlords no longer in receipt of rent also claim for assistance?

    No but no but. It depends on the argument , the day and the hour. Landlords are either Businesses , social workers , public housing suppliers , charities , keepers of the peace or generally multi millionaires. Based on the governments polling and public opinion your question is not an easy one to answer.


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    #6
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Pretty sure as they stopped all payments for dentists who closed, and most other self-employeed, then landlords won't be getting anything either.


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    #7
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,003 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    pwurple wrote: »
    Pretty sure as they stopped all payments for dentists who closed, and most other self-employeed, then landlords won't be getting anything either.

    Dentists do not receive any payments from the Government apart from fee-per-item of service payments. This has not been stopped.


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    #8
    The Student
    Registered Users Posts: 1,238 ✭✭✭The Student


    handlemaster wrote: »
    No but no but. It depends on the argument , the day and the hour. Landlords are either Businesses , social workers , public housing suppliers , charities , keepers of the peace or generally multi millionaires. Based on the governments polling and public opinion your question is not an easy one to answer.

    Summed up perfectly.


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    #9
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,438 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    pwurple wrote: »
    Pretty sure as they stopped all payments for dentists who closed, and most other self-employeed, then landlords won't be getting anything either.

    Government are still paying HAP, and all other Rental Assistance payments.


  • Options
    #10
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,027 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Renting out property is a business. If you have a business you need to have sufficient contingency plans. If you don't or if your business receives an extremely large shock and goes under, then you have to move on. It's quite simple really.

    There is no point patting yourself on the back during the good times and thinking you are a genius if ya can't cope when the shit hits the fan temporarily.

    Thems the risks ya were taking on from the start! If you didn't realise it, well it's an important lesson for you now


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    #11
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Renting out property is a business. If you have a business you need to have sufficient contingency plans. If you don't or if your business receives an extremely large shock and goes under, then you have to move on. It's quite simple really.

    There is no point patting yourself on the back during the good times and thinking you are a genius if ya can't cope when the shit hits the fan temporarily.

    Thems the risks ya were taking on from the start! If you didn't realise it, well it's an important lesson for you now

    Exactly. Too many people, landlords and tenants, dont realise that. Some tenants don't accept it as a service that is being provided and think thay can ignore the contract, not pay rent etc. Some landlords think similar that they can ignore contracts, ignore the tenancy regulations etc.

    It is a business and you take the risks. The tenant is not your friend.


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    #12
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Renting out property is a business. If you have a business you need to have sufficient contingency plans. If you don't or if your business receives an extremely large shock and goes under, then you have to move on. It's quite simple really.

    There is no point patting yourself on the back during the good times and thinking you are a genius if ya can't cope when the shit hits the fan temporarily.

    Thems the risks ya were taking on from the start! If you didn't realise it, well it's an important lesson for you now




    Load of Nonsense. If that was the case the government wouldn't be giving €350 to people to keep them ticking over and subsidising staff wages.


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    #13
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,027 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Load of Nonsense. If that was the case the government wouldn't be giving €350 to people to keep them ticking over and subsidising staff wages.



    Do you understand the difference between an individual being given social welfare benefits and a business?

    No sense rather than nonsense methinks!

    If you are a landlord and have staff working for you (perhaps you have 100 properties and you have an administrator in the office etc.) and have to let them go because of the corona, you can of course avail of any subsidies the same as any other business.
    But if you have no employees then you obviously can't get an employee subsidy. I'd have though that that was obvious? no?


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    #14
    Lux23
    Registered Users Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    A landlord isn't really a business though, if they had a business acumen, they wouldn't invest in property to pay them a living and expect it to never change.


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    #15
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Lux23 wrote: »
    A landlord isn't really a business though, if they had a business acumen, they wouldn't invest in property to pay them a living and expect it to never change.

    I suggest you take that up with the "professional landlords".


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    #16
    IndieRoar111
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 52 ✭✭IndieRoar111


    Hypothetical question here.

    If tenants don't pay rent during the next 3 months(duration of the deemed crisis) and then leave the property, can landlords do anything about it? The rules for eviction during this crisis seem very unfair towards the LL and could leave them open to blows.


  • Options
    #17
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Renting out property is a business. If you have a business you need to have sufficient contingency plans. If you don't or if your business receives an extremely large shock and goes under, then you have to move on. It's quite simple really.

    There is no point patting yourself on the back during the good times and thinking you are a genius if ya can't cope when the shit hits the fan temporarily.

    Thems the risks ya were taking on from the start! If you didn't realise it, well it's an important lesson for you now

    Right, so when times are good and the market can afford it you raise the rent to an appropriate level, so in bad times you have the cash to cover it!

    Unless of course the government cap rent rises, then you just get out of the market completely and let the clown car that is government housing policy look after providing homes for people. What could go wrong.


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    #18
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Renting out property is a business. If you have a business you need to have sufficient contingency plans. If you don't or if your business receives an extremely large shock and goes under, then you have to move on. It's quite simple really.

    There is no point patting yourself on the back during the good times and thinking you are a genius if ya can't cope when the shit hits the fan temporarily.

    Thems the risks ya were taking on from the start! If you didn't realise it, well it's an important lesson for you now

    Well said. That is if the goal posts dont keep moving with the next Joe Duffy show as they seem to have done over the last number of years. Also generous landlords that were caught out by the rent freezing all the while costs were rising .. so it's not all the simple as you say.


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    #19
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    IndieRoar111 wrote: »
    Hypothetical question here.

    If tenants don't pay rent during the next 3 months(duration of the deemed crisis) and then leave the property, can landlords do anything about it? The rules for eviction during this crisis seem very unfair towards the LL and could leave them open to blows.


    Let's not pretend the law is favourable towards the landlord virus or no virus..


  • Options
    #20
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Do you understand the difference between an individual being given social welfare benefits and a business?

    No sense rather than nonsense methinks!

    If you are a landlord and have staff working for you (perhaps you have 100 properties and you have an administrator in the office etc.) and have to let them go because of the corona, you can of course avail of any subsidies the same as any other business.
    But if you have no employees then you obviously can't get an employee subsidy. I'd have though that that was obvious? no?


    But if a landlord is a sole trader and has his rent coming in as his income, then surely he's in the same boat as me - a sole trader (photographer) whose income has frozen, and is entitled to the covid payment.


    Not that eligibility matters. Your original point: that every business should be well able to weather a completely sudden, country-wide shutdown that could last months on end, is laughable.


  • Options
    #21
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,365 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Deleted User wrote: »
    But if a landlord is a sole trader and has his rent coming in as his income, then surely he's in the same boat as me - a sole trader (photographer) whose income has frozen, and is entitled to the covid payment.


    Not that eligibility matters. Your original point: that every business should be well able to weather a completely sudden, country-wide shutdown that could last months on end, is laughable.

    Owning property is not like having a trade. It's an investment, not a profession.


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    #22
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    awec wrote: »
    Owning property is not like having a trade. It's an investment, not a profession.


    I would argue It's an investment if you're working away at something different and have a property in the background. It's a profession if you're relying on the income and your time is taken up servicing your properties and tenants.

    EDIT: My point being that in the first example, your income isn't based on the property itself, so you wouldnt be looking for a Covid payment for it. In the second example, you would be looking for the Covid payment.


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    #23
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,027 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Deleted User wrote: »
    But if a landlord is a sole trader and has his rent coming in as his income, then surely he's in the same boat as me - a sole trader (photographer) whose income has frozen, and is entitled to the covid payment.

    Ah sure look. If I lobbed 100k into bank shares earlier in the year and now they are not paying a dividend, should the government not just pay me what I think I should be getting instead? I was going to use those dividends to go off on me holidays in August and now I don't have that income so the government should give it to me. Is that not your "logic"?

    How about the 50k I put into penny stocks that went to zero. They should refund that to me too, right?
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Not that eligibility matters. Your original point: that every business should be well able to weather a completely sudden, country-wide shutdown that could last months on end, is laughable.

    You might think it's laughable because you possibly didn't read what I wrote.
    Go back and read it again. It's not long

    Any person who knows anything about the Irish property market and renting knows that it is quite possible that at any given point in time that ya might find zero cashflow coming from your property. If someone is in that game and depending hand-to-mouth on the rental money coming in, then I'd advise them to get out of it quick. Because they shouldn't be in a business where they can't understand basic risks. That's can't understand them, never mind attempt to manage them.


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    #24
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,438 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Ah sure look. If I lobbed 100k into bank shares earlier in the year and now they are not paying a dividend, should the government not just pay me what I think I should be getting instead? I was going to use those dividends to go off on me holidays in August and now I don't have that income so the government should give it to me. Is that not your "logic"?

    How about the 50k I put into penny stocks that went to zero. They should refund that to me too, right?



    You might think it's laughable because you possibly didn't read what I wrote.
    Go back and read it again. It's not long

    Any person who knows anything about the Irish property market and renting knows that it is quite possible that at any given point in time that ya might find zero cashflow coming from your property. If someone is in that game and depending hand-to-mouth on the rental money coming in, then I'd advise them to get out of it quick. Because they shouldn't be in a business where they can't understand basic risks. That's can't understand them, never mind attempt to manage them.

    Using your logic then, the tenant should have savings to weather this storm.
    Good point.


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    #25
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Ah sure look. If I lobbed 100k into bank shares earlier in the year and now they are not paying a dividend, should the government not just pay me what I think I should be getting instead? I was going to use those dividends to go off on me holidays in August and now I don't have that income so the government should give it to me. Is that not your "logic"?

    How about the 50k I put into penny stocks that went to zero. They should refund that to me too, right?


    No.. that's an investment. If you read my post above ('Go back and read it again. It's not long') you'd see the fairly simple logic that's being applied.


    If someone is in that game and depending hand-to-mouth on the rental money coming in, then I'd advise them to get out of it quick. Because they shouldn't be in a business where they can't understand basic risks. That's can't understand them, never mind attempt to manage them.


    You're inventing situations. 'Depending' is the word that matters above. By your logic, HomeStoreandMore, Harvey Norman, Ryanair, Irish Ferries, Gardening centres, Pubs, etc. should just go out of business now, as they hadn't put money aside for a potential 3 month country wide closure.


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    #26
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    ...
    Any person who knows anything about the Irish property market and renting knows that it is quite possible that at any given point in time that ya might find zero cashflow coming from your property. If someone is in that game and depending hand-to-mouth on the rental money coming in, then I'd advise them to get out of it quick. ...

    You can't get out of it quick. The govt made sure of that.

    Living hand to mouth is not viable long term. That's true of anything. Which why you make as much money when you can, to cover the times when you can't.

    For the last few years, decades even, trying to make that point about being a landlord was lambasted as being greedy. That it should be run at cost or even a loss as it was property speculation not a business where cash flow was important.

    We are about to find out what the reality is.


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    #27
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,027 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Using your logic then, the tenant should have savings to weather this storm.
    Good point.


    Yeah they should.

    When you have a business, you need to run it like a business. Even your business is owed money by another business, or even a private individual, that counterparty should have money set aside to pay you. But if they don't then that's your problem unfortunately.


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    #28
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,027 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Deleted User wrote: »
    No.. that's an investment. If you read my post above ('Go back and read it again. It's not long') you'd see the fairly simple logic that's being applied.

    Okaaayyyyyyyyyyy.

    So if John puts 250k into a house and expects to sit on his hole and to live off the income, that's a profession.

    And Mary puts 250k into bank shares and expects to sit on her hole and live off the income then that's an investment.

    Man, you're really showing why you probably should use a good financial advisor.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    You're inventing situations. 'Depending' is the word that matters above. By your logic, HomeStoreandMore, Harvey Norman, Ryanair, Irish Ferries, Gardening centres, Pubs, etc. should just go out of business now, as they hadn't put money aside for a potential 3 month country wide closure.

    It's great that you have access to all the internal financial accounts of those businesses to know what they do and don't have :pac:



    I'll summarize your situation as follows:

    Person sees other people buying houses. Doesn't do any research and decides it's easy money. Goes to a bank and gets a loan. Buys house. Finds tenant who pays more rent than mortgage. "Great" thinks person. I must be really really smart. Then a speedbump is hit. Person cries "wahh wahhh wahh, I don't understand the risks. That means that I should get free money from the government doesn't it"


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    #29
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Ah sure look. If I lobbed 100k into bank shares earlier in the year and now they are not paying a dividend, should the government not just pay me what I think I should be getting instead? I was going to use those dividends to go off on me holidays in August and now I don't have that income so the government should give it to me. Is that not your "logic"?

    How about the 50k I put into penny stocks that went to zero. They should refund that to me too, right?



    You might think it's laughable because you possibly didn't read what I wrote.
    Go back and read it again. It's not long

    Any person who knows anything about the Irish property market and renting knows that it is quite possible that at any given point in time that ya might find zero cashflow coming from your property. If someone is in that game and depending hand-to-mouth on the rental money coming in, then I'd advise them to get out of it quick. Because they shouldn't be in a business where they can't understand basic risks. That's can't understand them, never mind attempt to manage them.

    You said it again Business.. like any business ups and downs..


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    #30
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Okaaayyyyyyyyyyy.

    So if John puts 250k into a house and expects to sit on his hole and to live off the income, that's a profession.

    And Mary puts 250k into bank shares and expects to sit on her hole and live off the income then that's an investment.

    Man, you're really showing why you probably should use a good financial advisor.



    It's great that you have access to all the internal financial accounts of those businesses to know what they do and don't have :pac:



    I'll summarize your situation as follows:

    Person sees other people buying houses. Doesn't do any research and decides it's easy money. Goes to a bank and gets a loan. Buys house. Finds tenant who pays more rent than mortgage. "Great" thinks person. I must be really really smart. Then a speedbump is hit. Person cries "wahh wahhh wahh, I don't understand the risks. That means that I should get free money from the government doesn't it"


    Property investing isn't always passive.


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    #31
    DubCount
    Registered Users Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭DubCount


    I think this thread is brilliant !!

    Residential Letting is now "an investment". I've owned bank shares. Never once did the bank call me at 6AM to tell me they had a problem with their washing machine.

    Residential Letting is now "a business". When rent controls were being brought in, I was told it was not a business but a social service.

    From my point of view, residential letting was a "constant headache" - I'm not sure how anyone still does it as an investment or business.

    Please remember when all this is over, we will be glad we supported all businesses, investors and entrepreneurs. They will pay the taxes we need to pay for our services. Its important they survive.


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