Current landlord refusing HAP

Enbee92 · 02-10-2019 7:21am #1

Hi all,

I've been living at this address for 7 years, on rent supplement for 5. I've been asked by the council to apply for HAP (as they are phasing out RS). I filled in my part of the application, sent the landlord his part to fill in, and last night received a text in reply saying:

"If you wish to take on another fixed term lease we would expect the same payment terms and conditions as per the previous lease. Can you please let me know as soon as possible if you wish to proceed"

Which I have interpreted as no hap or pack your bags. I've done my research, and as far as I can tell, he cannot refuse HAP. I have contacted the council, Threshold and the PRTB and am awaiting response, but after an entirely sleepless night worrying about the possibility of having to house hunt in this current climate, I would appreciate hugely if anyone could give me some peace of mind.

TIA

Graces7 · 02-10-2019 7:24am

Enbee92 wrote: »

Hi all,

I've been living at this address for 7 years, on rent supplement for 5. I've been asked by the council to apply for HAP (as they are phasing out RS). I filled in my part of the application, sent the landlord his part to fill in, and last night received a text in reply saying:

"If you wish to take on another fixed term lease we would expect the same payment terms and conditions as per the previous lease. Can you please let me know as soon as possible if you wish to proceed"

Which I have interpreted as no hap or pack your bags. I've done my research, and as far as I can tell, he cannot refuse HAP. I have contacted the council, Threshold and the PRTB and am awaiting response, but after an entirely sleepless night worrying about the possibility of having to house hunt in this current climate, I would appreciate hugely if anyone could give me some peace of mind.

TIA

You have done and are doing all the right things.. Hang on in there; I know how worrying it is from experience. No harm meanwhile to start looking round.

A niggle in my mind re Part 4 tenancy ? Others here will know more than I do

ted1 · 02-10-2019 7:28am

He hasn’t refused HAP, what you need to do is pay for the first month. And let HAP pay the rest. HAP is poorly designed in that it goes against every rental system in the world and pays the landlord at the end of the month. If you cover that month the rest should fall into place

FishOnABike · 02-10-2019 7:42am

If starting HAP would cause a delay in rent being paid to the landlord leaving you having to pay a month (or more depending on how long it takes from submitting your application to the first payment being made) consider approaching your local community welfare officer to look fie exceptional needs payment to bridge the gap.

Enbee92 · 02-10-2019 7:46am

ted1 wrote: »

He hasn’t refused HAP, what you need to do is pay for the first month. And let HAP pay the rest. HAP is poorly designed in that it goes against every rental system in the world and pays the landlord at the end of the month. If you cover that month the rest should fall into place

I think he's refusing it in a round about way. He isn't returning his part of the application. So how would you recommend I approach it? I definitely don't want to keep everything as civil as possible but my landlord is the type to argue every little thing and have had a lot of issues over the years with him taking an unreasonable amount of time to carry out repairs etc and just generally doing the absolute bare minimum. If he does officially refuse HAP, how am I best to proceed? TIA

Enbee92 · 02-10-2019 7:49am

Graces7 wrote: »

You have done and are doing all the right things.. Hang on in there; I know how worrying it is from experience. No harm meanwhile to start looking round.

A niggle in my mind re Part 4 tenancy ? Others here will know more than I do

Yes I believe I'm covered under part 4 in terms of him asking me to leave. As I moved in pre 2016, after 6 months I was covered for 4 years, that's rolled over now again for another 4. So I'm essentially covered until September of next year from my understanding.

Hes been cute enough not to actually say the words that he's refusing HAP, so I guess I'll wait and see what the Prtb etc have to say

karenalot · 02-10-2019 8:04am

Enbee92 wrote: »

I have contacted the council, Threshold and the PRTB and am awaiting response

Would you not just contact your landlord and clarify before reporting the situation to all the above?

No he can’t refuse HAP, nor should he bother with fixed terms leases as Part 4 rights outweigh them.

As a decent tenant you should ensure that you have enough funds in the bank to cover any delayed payments that might arise with the switchover.

Dav010 · 02-10-2019 8:18am

Where has he refused HAP?

Your original lease will state your rent is to be paid monthly, in advance, on a specified date, the LL is informing you that as this is an agreed condition of your original lease, rent payment is to continue as such. The problem you face is that HAP is paid a month in arrears, so it is up to you to ensure your rent is paid as it always has been. The council does not enter a rental agreement with the LL when you receive HAP, the agreement is between you and the LL.

Just be aware, if you have been there for 7 years, your second Part4 cycle is coming to an end so the LL can terminate your tenancy based on that.

FishOnABike · 02-10-2019 8:18am

karenalot wrote: »

Would you not just contact your landlord and clarify before reporting the situation to all the above?

No he can’t refuse HAP, nor should he bother with fixed terms leases as Part 4 rights outweigh them.

As a decent tenant you should ensure that you have enough funds in the bank to cover any delayed payments that might arise with the switchover.

If HAP is fit for purpose there should be a seamless transition between rent supplement and HAP payments. Unfortunately this is not the way it always works.

It is not reasonable to expect a person receiving rent supplement to have possibly several months rent set aside in savings to cover the inadequacies of the system.

Dav010 · 02-10-2019 8:24am

FishOnABike wrote: »

If HAP is fit for purpose there should be a seamless transition between rent supplement and HAP payments. Unfortunately this is not the way it always works.

It is not reasonable to expect a person receiving rent supplement to have possibly several months rent set aside in savings to cover the inadequacies of the system.

For me, this is exactly what the LL is informing the OP of, the rent supplement system is poorly designed and it seems that once HAP eligibility is granted, some tenants think they can stop paying rent and wait for the payment to come through, which can take quite a while.

Irrespective of HAP, if rent is not paid to LL on time each month as per rental agreement, the op will be in rental arrears.

Enbee92 · 02-10-2019 8:27am

karenalot wrote: »

Would you not just contact your landlord and clarify before reporting the situation to all the above?

No he can’t refuse HAP, nor should he bother with fixed terms leases as Part 4 rights outweigh them.

As a decent tenant you should ensure that you have enough funds in the bank to cover any delayed payments that might arise with the switchover.

Thanks for your response. I haven't reported anything, I've just emailed them to ask if he does officially refuse it what my options are and to find out what my actual rights are in this situation, so that I am prepared.

With regards to your last point, as someone in receipt of RS I clearly cannot afford to pay a full month's rent alone, otherwise I wouldn't be on said payment. If needs be, I will seek support from the council for this.

Xterminator · 02-10-2019 8:38am

Hi OP

i think it fair to say your landlord should not be expected to forgo timely payment of rent. that appears to be his primary concern, not the refusal of HAP.

i understand you bring concerned, but surely you can see his point of view too?

Enbee92 · 02-10-2019 8:44am

Xterminator wrote: »

Hi OP

i think it fair to say your landlord should not be expected to forgo timely payment of rent. that appears to be his primary concern, not the refusal of HAP.

i understand you bring concerned, but surely you can see his point of view too?

Absolutely, and as I said in an earlier post, if there is any delay in payment to him I will seek an urgent needs payment from social welfare to cover it. I simply cannot afford to pay it all myself, but I will absolutely do everything in my power to ensure he doesn't miss a month's rent as I understand that he too has a mortgage to pay for.

This is not the issue at hand, however. My question was simply to get advise on what I should do if he does actively refuse hap. Thanks for your response

Dav010 · 02-10-2019 8:50am

Enbee92 wrote: »

Absolutely, and as I said in an earlier post, if there is any delay in payment to him I will seek an urgent needs payment from social welfare to cover it. I simply cannot afford to pay it all myself, but I will absolutely do everything in my power to ensure he doesn't miss a month's rent as I understand that he too has a mortgage to pay for.

This is not the issue at hand, however. My question was simply to get advise on what I should do if he does actively refuse hap. Thanks for your response

He can’t legally refuse HAP, if he accepts RS, I don’t see why you are assuming he would not accept HAP.

He is making certain you know your obligations. If you are unable to pay rent yourself, you need to make contingency now for any delay in changing from one rental supplement to the other. It will be no use looking for a SW payment after rent payment date has passed, you will be in arrears.

Enbee92 · 02-10-2019 8:59am

Dav010 wrote: »

He can’t legally refuse HAP, if he accepts RS, I don’t see why you are assuming he would not accept HAP.

He is making certain you know your obligations. If you are unable to pay rent yourself, you need to make contingency now for any delay in changing from one rental supplement to the other. It will be no use looking for a SW payment after rent payment date has passed, you will be in arrears.

I'm just wondering what my options are if he does officially refuse hap. The wording of his text is what has me believing he is going to try to refuse it, as he says if I want to continue the lease he expects the same payment terms and conditions... Which is currently x amount on the 19th of every month... The amount won't change but the date will. I have reassured him in the letter I attached to the application that he would receive the same amount, and that any arrears incurred as a result of the switch over would be ammended

Gumbo · 02-10-2019 9:24am

Enbee92 wrote: »

I'm just wondering what my options are if he does officially refuse hap. The wording of his text is what has me believing he is going to try to refuse it, as he says if I want to continue the lease he expects the same payment terms and conditions... Which is currently x amount on the 19th of every month... The amount won't change but the date will. I have reassured him in the letter I attached to the application that he would receive the same amount, and that any arrears incurred as a result of the switch over would be ammended

HAP is paid in on the last Wednesday of the month.
he may need payment by the 19th in order to satisfy his own standing orders for other payments including insurance, mortgage etc

So you assuring him any arrears will be fixed is not the answer, arrears should not occur.

Can you arrange for HAP to be paid to yourself and you continue to pay the rent on the 19th as agreed?

FishOnABike · 02-10-2019 9:32am

Enbee92 wrote: »

I'm just wondering what my options are if he does officially refuse hap. The wording of his text is what has me believing he is going to try to refuse it, as he says if I want to continue the lease he expects the same payment terms and conditions... Which is currently x amount on the 19th of every month... The amount won't change but the date will. I have reassured him in the letter I attached to the application that he would receive the same amount, and that any arrears incurred as a result of the switch over would be ammended

I think that may be the problem. Any arrears could cause problems in turn for the LL paying their own bills. The payment date of 19th might also be so the LL can be sure funds are in their account in time to pay their own bills.

As it stands if rent is not paid by 19th, a fourteen day notice can be issued on 20th and if the arrears are not cleared in full this can be followed two weeks later by notice of termination.

The transition from rent supplement to HAP needs to ensue the LL is not, even temporarily, out of pocket.

If HAP is paid on the last Wednesday of each month then this will need to be agreed with the LL and a bridging payment of roughly a month and a half's rent paid during the transition to move the rent day out to the last Wednesday and ensure the rent continues to be paid in advance. This is assuming the transition takes less than a month.

It doesn't help that rent supplement and HAP are administered by two different organisations and seems to be set up more to suit them than their clients.

ted1 · 02-10-2019 9:33am

kceire wrote: »

HAP is paid in on the last Wednesday of the month.
he may need payment by the 19th in order to satisfy his own standing orders for other payments including insurance, mortgage etc

So you assuring him any arrears will be fixed is not the answer, arrears should not occur.

Can you arrange for HAP to be paid to yourself and you continue to pay the rent on the 19th as agreed?

The 19th might just also be the date the OP moved in.

Enbee92 · 02-10-2019 9:36am

ted1 wrote: »

The 19th might just also be the date the OP moved in.

Yes this is correct, I moved in on the 19th, and the original lease from 2012 states this. Thank you

Enbee92 · 02-10-2019 9:45am

kceire wrote: »

HAP is paid in on the last Wednesday of the month.
he may need payment by the 19th in order to satisfy his own standing orders for other payments including insurance, mortgage etc

So you assuring him any arrears will be fixed is not the answer, arrears should not occur.

Can you arrange for HAP to be paid to yourself and you continue to pay the rent on the 19th as agreed?

The 19th is the date that I moved in. I'll be doing everything in my power to ensure arrears don't occur. As it stands I'm paying on the 19th for the month ahead, so if there's a delay with the switchover I should be covered for at least that month, and following that I'll have to take out a loan or an urgent needs payment from the social welfare to cover the difference

Enbee92 · 02-10-2019 9:47am

FishOnABike wrote: »

I think that may be the problem. Any arrears could cause problems in turn for the LL paying their own bills. The payment date of 19th might also be so the LL can be sure funds are in their account in time to pay their own bills.

As it stands if rent is not paid by 19th, a fourteen day notice can be issued on 20th and if the arrears are not cleared in full this can be followed two weeks later by notice of termination.

The transition from rent supplement to HAP needs to ensue the LL is not, even temporarily, out of pocket.

If HAP is paid on the last Wednesday of each month then this will need to be agreed with the LL and a bridging payment of roughly a month and a half's rent paid during the transition to move the rent day out to the last Wednesday and ensure the rent continues to be paid in advance. This is assuming the transition takes less than a month.

It doesn't help that rent supplement and HAP are administered by two different organisations and seems to be set up more to suit them than their clients.

The 19th is the date that I moved in. I'll be doing everything I can to ensure the landlord isn't out of pocket, even if I have to get a loan to pay it myself. I will reaffirm that to my landlord that he will not be out of pocket and hopefully that eases his concern. Thanks

Browney7 · 02-10-2019 10:35am

So in the case of Hap, does the LL refund the last payment they receive to the tenant when the tenant moves out if the tenant makes a payment to cover the month in arrears at the start?

Enbee92 · 02-10-2019 10:42am

Browney7 wrote: »

So in the case of Hap, does the LL refund the last payment they receive to the tenant when the tenant moves out if the tenant makes a payment to cover the month in arrears at the start?

That's a good question actually... Presumably they'd have to. Similar to the deposit I guess

FishOnABike · 02-10-2019 11:08am

Browney7 wrote: »

So in the case of Hap, does the LL refund the last payment they receive to the tenant when the tenant moves out if the tenant makes a payment to cover the month in arrears at the start?

Whrn the tenant gives notice to their LL they can advise the council of their moving date. Whether the council can stop payment before the end of the month and transfer payment seamlessly to a new LL is another question.

As long as HAP is paid in arrears there will always be problems with the transition between one rental property and another.

People don't always move neatly at month end / month start and a deposit and rent in advance needs to be paid to a new LL.

An independent third party escrow system gir deposits, transferrable between tenancies would go a long way towards solving the problem if the need for overlapping deposits.

If HAP payments were made to the tenant (as was the case with rent supplement) these wouldn't be so much an issue as the tenant would be able to use the payment towards rent for their new accommodation.

The more one looks at the HAP scheme the more apparent it becomes that it was not designed by people who have had any experience in depending on the private rental market and social supports to keep a roof over their head.

karenalot · 02-10-2019 1:16pm

FishOnABike wrote: »

If HAP is fit for purpose there should be a seamless transition between rent supplement and HAP payments. Unfortunately this is not the way it always works.

It is not reasonable to expect a person receiving rent supplement to have possibly several months rent set aside in savings to cover the inadequacies of the system.

Yes obviously there SHOULD be a seamless transition but as it stands there is not. It is also not reasonable to expect landlords to supplement tenants who they are providing a service to.

I say this as someone who has hap tenants.

karenalot · 02-10-2019 1:23pm

FishOnABike wrote: »

If HAP payments were made to the tenant (as was the case with rent supplement) these wouldn't be so much an issue as the tenant would be able to use the payment towards rent for their new accommodation.

Paying full rents directly to tenants was proven to be a disaster. Too much temptation to not pass on to the landlord.

Gumbo · 02-10-2019 5:30pm

Browney7 wrote: »

So in the case of Hap, does the LL refund the last payment they receive to the tenant when the tenant moves out if the tenant makes a payment to cover the month in arrears at the start?

No, because HAP is paid in arrears.
So if the LL is paid directly, they are paid the last Wednesday of the month for the month that has passed.

Edit - just read your post again if it’s set up like this then I’d continue to pay the LL at the start of every month and get the HAP paid directly to me as a tenant as opposed to the LL if possible.

The_Conductor · 02-10-2019 5:58pm

OP- there is no indication whatsoever from the text that your landlord sent you that he/she intends to refuse HAP.
If they are already in the system accepting RS- there is no reason that they wouldn't accept HAP- providing of course that you don't alter the terms of the lease by moving from one system to another. Also- you have to ensure that arrears do not arise- not fix them when they do arise- ensure proactively that they don't arise.

Some local authorities are more amenable to paying HAP upfront- possibly with an enhanced deposit- to ensure that their tenants are no worse off than any other tenants- and to ensure that landlords are paid rent in a standard manner.

The person who commented that HAP seems to be setup to suit local authorities and not tenants or landlords- unfortunately is making a very valid observation- the manner in which the scheme is administered is a mess and landlords and tenants are expected to pick up the pieces whenever anything goes wrong- and very often things do go wrong.

davindub · 03-10-2019 4:14am

Op FLAC and the WRC are the best public advisory and enforcement body respectively when dealing with the equal status act.

ted1 · 03-10-2019 7:42am

karenalot wrote: »

Paying full rents directly to tenants was proven to be a disaster. Too much temptation to not pass on to the landlord.

Agreed, I had a tenant move out and several months later had a call from the council asking how it was that they were paying for two different tenants.
Turns out the tenant who moved out, moved back to her parents , never told the council and was pocketing the money.

Old diesel · 03-10-2019 9:21am

ted1 wrote: »

karenalot wrote: »

Paying full rents directly to tenants was proven to be a disaster. Too much temptation to not pass on to the landlord.

Agreed, I had a tenant move out and several months later had a call from the council asking how it was that they were paying for two different tenants.
Turns out the tenant who moved out, moved back to her parents , never told the council and was pocketing the money.

Your replacement tenant was on Rent allowance too?????.

Current landlord refusing HAP

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