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Marathon Improvers Thread.

12357…65

Comments

  • #122
    Itziger
    Registered Users Posts: 4,012 ✭✭✭Itziger


    adrian522 wrote: »
    Thanks for digging that out, looks like a good plan in fairness. I'll draw something up during the week I think.

    This looks like tough..

    AM - Recovery Run, 30mins //
    PM - Warm-up, 10mins +10mins @ Threshold with 60seconds recovery jog + 3 x 1K @ 10K pace with 90seconds recovery jog between efforts + 10mins @ Threshold

    I've done that PM session and I think it's a great one. Yes, tough, but good tough! If I'm not mistaken it goes up to 15+4x1k+15, no?

    (I've closed the tab with the link)


  • #123
    adrian522
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522


    Itziger wrote: »
    I've done that PM session and I think it's a great one. Yes, tough, but good tough! If I'm not mistaken it goes up to 15+4x1k+15, no?

    (I've closed the tab with the link)

    Yeah, I guess you have to build up to these things.

    I've noticed a lot of plans have threshold paces more so than HM pace.


  • #124
    clickerquicklic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭clickerquicklic


    I'm really a marathon novice so this question probably should go in novices thread but I've run a marathon before a long time ago and didn't train properly so no past experience of such , anyway . My question is should i race a half marathon in build up to marathon ? I was going to enter clontarf half in two weeks time , I've been doing a long run of half marathon distance for last few weeks is there any benefit in running a half marathon at all ? Should I go as hard as possible or run it at planned marathon pace ? I'm roughly aiming for sub 3:30 for marathon but that is an arbitrary figure based on other people times I know who have ran similar 5k times to me ( this is probably a ridiculous thing to base it off ! But I've no other idea , the running calculators online seem optimistic ) thanks .


  • #125
    kin9pin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 959 ✭✭✭kin9pin


    clickerquicklic wrote: »
    I'm really a marathon novice so this question probably should go in novices thread but I've run a marathon before a long time ago and didn't train properly so no past experience of such , anyway . My question is should i race a half marathon in build up to marathon ? I was going to enter clontarf half in two weeks time , I've been doing a long run of half marathon distance for last few weeks is there any benefit in running a half marathon at all ? Should I go as hard as possible or run it at planned marathon pace ? I'm roughly aiming for sub 3:30 for marathon but that is an arbitrary figure based on other people times I know who have ran similar 5k times to me ( this is probably a ridiculous thing to base it off ! But I've no other idea , the running calculators online seem optimistic ) thanks .

    I would have said run Clontarf as a race as it would give you a better indicator of your potential goal marathon time. However, pretty sure I saw today that it's now sold out.
    If you've signed up for DCM then I would also recommend the race series Dublin HM which is 5 weeks before. That will give a better indicator of your progress as you'll have the bulk of training complete (the race-series 10m in August is also a good one).

    Have a look at the 2017 novices thread. Might be an idea to join in there as you'll get loads of great advice and support. It doesn't matter that you've already run a marathon, you'll still benefit. They also have a couple of plans that include the tune-up races.

    I personally wouldn't go by the online calculators using your 5k time as the distance is just too short to measure your endurance.


  • #126
    Kennyg71
    Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    clickerquicklic wrote: »
    I'm really a marathon novice so this question probably should go in novices thread but I've run a marathon before a long time ago and didn't train properly so no past experience of such , anyway . My question is should i race a half marathon in build up to marathon ? I was going to enter clontarf half in two weeks time , I've been doing a long run of half marathon distance for last few weeks is there any benefit in running a half marathon at all ? Should I go as hard as possible or run it at planned marathon pace ? I'm roughly aiming for sub 3:30 for marathon but that is an arbitrary figure based on other people times I know who have ran similar 5k times to me ( this is probably a ridiculous thing to base it off ! But I've no other idea , the running calculators online seem optimistic ) thanks .

    I know from my time in novice thread racing is encouraged right up to HM distance, but usually that half would be 5-6 weeks before Marathon. IMO if you want to start Marathon training fresh no real point in raciing a half marathon as it could take a couple of week to fully recover. If you just like a race athmosphere and just treat as long run and trow in a few MP miles no harm.

    Wouldn't mind running calculators to much, see how training goes, but probably best to make your way to novice thread and only listen to one line of advice, which from my experience was mainly spot on. Best luck with training.


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  • #127
    Mumontherun
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭Mumontherun


    Hi, a marathon newbie, but experienced runner & also into road cycling. I have signed up for DCM. Looking at various plans, the run calculator link on here suggests I am capable of a 3:30 marathon ( I am not so sure about this). Whilst I will aim for a sub 3:30 I will re adjust my time if I feel the training isn't going according to plan. I have looked at a few programs for sub 3:30 and in particular the Runners World Run Less Run Faster, which is based on 3 key runs a week, which would suit me but I do feel the long runs are very long in comparison to other programs for sub 3:30. It's a 16 week program (which I hope to start 2 weeks early which would be in a week to allow for sickness/life interruptions etc) with the long runs starting as follows, 13 miles, 15, 17, 20, 18, 20, 13, 18, 20, 15, 20, 15, 20, 13, 10, Race Day. I generally cycle at least twice a week, a current weekend long ride approx 100k avg 27/28 km/hr and a mid week either tempo 50k @ 30km/hr or 70/80k avg 26 km/hr. I would like to keep the cycling going as my cross training but the program doesn't recommend that quantity of cycling as xt but I would be willing to cut the long weekend spin to 70k and try and space a days rest between my long spin and long run. I am still hoping to do a few more sportives before the Summer is over. Anyone here in a similar situation to me who does both running and cycling and can give me any advice / program recommendations?


  • #128
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,414 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Good luck with the plan. The obvious answer to your dilemma is to keep it simple. Running a marathon with ambitious goal? Concentrate on marathon training. Cross training is all very well and useful in the off season but not particularly useful (in my opinion) to your running. If you have the running capacity, and an ambitious marathon target, why not play to your (non-cycling) strengths?

    Good luck with it, however you plan it.


  • #129
    ger664
    Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭ger664


    Agree with above commit to the marathon ct/bike of under an hour is, grand on some rest/recovery days. As regards 3:30 my 5k time would give me a sub 3:10 after 50+ marathons my pb is 3:18 so take these calculation times with a large pinch of salt


  • #130
    clickerquicklic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭clickerquicklic


    Mumontherun wrote: »
    Hi, a marathon newbie, but experienced runner & also into road cycling. I have signed up for DCM. Looking at various plans, the run calculator link on here suggests I am capable of a 3:30 marathon ( I am not so sure about this). Whilst I will aim for a sub 3:30 I will re adjust my time if I feel the training isn't going according to plan. I have looked at a few programs for sub 3:30 and in particular the Runners World Run Less Run Faster, which is based on 3 key runs a week, which would suit me but I do feel the long runs are very long in comparison to other programs for sub 3:30. It's a 16 week program (which I hope to start 2 weeks early which would be in a week to allow for sickness/life interruptions etc) with the long runs starting as follows, 13 miles, 15, 17, 20, 18, 20, 13, 18, 20, 15, 20, 15, 20, 13, 10, Race Day. I generally cycle at least twice a week, a current weekend long ride approx 100k avg 27/28 km/hr and a mid week either tempo 50k @ 30km/hr or 70/80k avg 26 km/hr. I would like to keep the cycling going as my cross training but the program doesn't recommend that quantity of cycling as xt but I would be willing to cut the long weekend spin to 70k and try and space a days rest between my long spin and long run. I am still hoping to do a few more sportives before the Summer is over. Anyone here in a similar situation to me who does both running and cycling and can give me any advice / program recommendations?

    I'm similar enough to this, there is so much conflicting information online, I was going to replace easy runs for cycles but after looking at lots of plans I've decided to ignore cycling training all together and to follow a sub 3:30 plan, I actually picked a sub 3:15 plan I'll see how that goes it's similar to 3:30 paces look manageable and I can always drop back to other plan.
    I do 100k on bike most weeks commuting and I've friends that cycle who I do a few long rides with maybe once a month or so. I ran a half marathon long run yesterday and a couple of hours later did 100k on bike , I didn't notice that I had run the bike seems to use different muscles , on Friday I did a 60k with some hill repeats on bike and Saturday morning was my long run and similarly don't think it had much effect on legs or fatigue if it was it was marginal. I'm finding the running is making me a stronger cyclist but the cycling is doing nothing for my running so that's why I've ignored it for training .

    *thanks lads I'll seek advice in novice thread and cheers for heads up on clontarf been sold out probably for the best . I've entered the race series so in for that half anyway .


  • #131
    kin9pin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 959 ✭✭✭kin9pin


    The Irish 3/4 Marathon is on 8th October which ties in nicely with the planned 22 mile steady run on the meno plan. The plan says steady is MP +5%, with the last few miles at MP, and I see the pacers in this race also run at 105% of certain MP's. Is it worth entering this, with say a 1m w/u and c/d, for a good dress rehearsal or do the more experienced runners think the risk of actually ending up racing it is too great?


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  • #132
    Singer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,415 ✭✭✭Singer


    kin9pin wrote: »
    The Irish 3/4 Marathon is on 8th October which ties in nicely with the planned 22 mile steady run on the meno plan. The plan says steady is MP +5%, with the last few miles at MP, and I see the pacers in this race also run at 105% of certain MP's. Is it worth entering this, with say a 1m w/u and c/d, for a good dress rehearsal or do the more experienced runners think the risk of actually ending up racing it is too great?

    I ran it last year, I ran it mostly to plan and would definitely do it again. It's really well organised and there's not a full-on race atmosphere . It should at the end of your peak milage week, with meno's "sting in the tail" a few days later, you won't be in the mood for racing anyway :)


  • #133
    kin9pin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 959 ✭✭✭kin9pin


    Singer wrote: »
    I ran it last year, I ran it mostly to plan and would definitely do it again. It's really well organised and there's not a full-on race atmosphere . It should at the end of your peak milage week, with meno's "sting in the tail" a few days later, you won't be in the mood for racing anyway :)

    Oh yeah thanks, just seen the 14m MP for the following Wednesday :) I seem to remember a couple of the 2016 novices raving about it last year so I've just entered.


  • #134
    ger664
    Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭ger664


    HBS

    I just had a quick reread of the thread. I fear for you on the posted plan mainly the weekend where you have Charlivile Half, 18 mile with 14@MP then 10K race followed by 17 miles.

    P&D doesn't schedule races longer then 10 miles which imo is correct. The recovery time from a raced half has too much of an effect on the training. There is really no benefit that cant be got from a ten mile race.

    My advice would be not to race a half during the cycle. Ten miles max followed by a long run the day after is how P&D has this scheduled. You will recover quicker and reduce your risk of injury.

    If you are going to persist with racing Charlevillie I would advise not running the 14 miles @ MP the following weekend and maybe do the 14 miles MP in the last 20 miler if the legs are up to it.


  • #135
    Van.Bosch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,846 ✭✭✭Van.Bosch


    Hi, I've done a few marathons but havnt been too regular with running over the last few months so in two minds about whether to do P&D 55 18 week plan or the meno plan. I appreciate what plan I should do will depend on various factors but in general what are people's opinions on which is tougher/more advanced?


  • #136
    hot buttered scones
    Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    Trying to reply to ger664 above but the app keeps losing my posts. I've noted what you've said and will look at it when back off holidays. Thanks.


  • #137
    hot buttered scones
    Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    Van.Bosch wrote:
    Hi, I've done a few marathons but havnt been too regular with running over the last few months so in two minds about whether to do P&D 55 18 week plan or the meno plan. I appreciate what plan I should do will depend on various factors but in general what are people's opinions on which is tougher/more advanced?


    There both different and tough in there own way. P+D has some VO2 max stuff which meno does not, but meno has more MP stuff and harder long runs. Meno is more flexible. I enjoyed both.


  • #138
    Testosterscone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Testosterscone


    kin9pin wrote: »
    The Irish 3/4 Marathon is on 8th October which ties in nicely with the planned 22 mile steady run on the meno plan. The plan says steady is MP +5%, with the last few miles at MP, and I see the pacers in this race also run at 105% of certain MP's. Is it worth entering this, with say a 1m w/u and c/d, for a good dress rehearsal or do the more experienced runners think the risk of actually ending up racing it is too great?

    FWIW like Singer I did this last year as a steady run myself and +1 on race it's ideal prep.

    There will be the temptation to go out too hard but this is good practice for keeping things controlled like you will have to early on come race day.

    Looking at the Meno plan though personally I wouldn't be mad on having those two sessions so close together. The sessions themselves would have similar enough effect and with short recovery would prob opt for something with slightly different stimuluous


  • #139
    adrian522
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522


    When I followed that plan, I didn't race the half, but did it at MP, making the total for the day 22 miles and thought that worked well. That was 4 weeks out from the race. I still did the 14 Miles @ MP 10 days later, but didn't add on any extra to bring up the total mileage for that one.


  • #140
    Itziger
    Registered Users Posts: 4,012 ✭✭✭Itziger


    Where's Meno's plan to be found???


  • #141
    adrian522
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522


    There's a link on the first post of this thread.


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  • #142
    Jakey Rolling
    Registered Users Posts: 916 ✭✭✭Jakey Rolling


    Going to stick with Hal Higdon Advanced 1 plan, as it works well around my work and family schedule. After summer holidays and some shorter races etc I'll be picking it up rigidly 12 weeks out from Dublin.

    Used this for Limerick but over-did the mileage on a few occasions and missed too many speed sessions. Initially trained to 3:15 pace, revised to around 3:22 based on my MP sessions and LT testing, screwed it up on the day by going out far too fast - finished in 3:36. Ran Cork 5 weeks later with just maintenance mileage and managed a steady 3:27, felt I had another 5 mins if the conditions had been more favourable (absolutely no soreness after Cork, the limiting factor for me was the heat)

    Going to put more emphasis on the quality speed sessions this time around and hopefully get lactate threshold checked again so I can make a decision on a sensible pace for Dublin. Initial target is 3:15

    Current PB's:
    5k - 19:11 (2016)
    10k - 41:53 (2017)
    10m - 67:12 (2017)
    1/2 - 1:36 (marathon split)
    Mar - 3:27 (2017)

    100412.2526@compuserve.com



  • #143
    hot buttered scones
    Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    Same target as myself Jakey. Here's hoping for more suitable conditions than Cork.


  • #144
    Spirogyra
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Spirogyra


    My LSR of 12.7 miles was in average of 9 minutes 21 seconds per mile. I didn't time the shorter runs by myself.


  • #145
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,414 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    How are other marathon improvers doing with the perennial problem of pace drop-off? I used to think this was not a big issue for me as my marathon times lined up quite well with shorter race times, but over time my shorter times have improved, to the extent that my marathon PB (3:28) is now way off what is 'predicted' by my 5k time (20:21). I know calculators are supposed to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt, but perhaps less so over time, as one gets more experienced.

    How do your times line up, and what has been the most important training element for developing speed endurance? Long tempo runs? Long runs 'with stuff'? Diet? Cross training? Something else? All of the above?


  • #146
    Kennyg71
    Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    Murph_D wrote: »
    How are other marathon improvers doing with the perennial problem of pace drop-off? I used to think this was not a big issue for me as my marathon times lined up quite well with shorter race times, but over time my shorter times have improved, to the extent that my marathon PB (3:28) is now way off what is 'predicted' by my 5k time (20:21). I know calculators are supposed to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt, but perhaps less so over time, as one gets more experienced.

    How do your times line up, and what has been the most important training element for developing speed endurance? Long tempo runs? Long runs 'with stuff'? Diet? Cross training? Something else? All of the above?

    Don't have enough experience to offer an real insight, but long LT runs, and long steady runs from reading would apear to be big part of the key, so Hanson plan for its part may prove to be of benifit. But I suppose Marathon is also about running as relaxed as possible and dealing with mental side of running for a long time, much harder to deal with peaks and troughs over longer distance, At moment my half PB 1.37.57 or there abouts is faster than my 10 mile, 10k and 5 mile PB according to calculators.


  • #147
    ger664
    Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭ger664


    Murph_D wrote: »
    How are other marathon improvers doing with the perennial problem of pace drop-off? I used to think this was not a big issue for me as my marathon times lined up quite well with shorter race times, but over time my shorter times have improved, to the extent that my marathon PB (3:28) is now way off what is 'predicted' by my 5k time (20:21). I know calculators are supposed to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt, but perhaps less so over time, as one gets more experienced.

    How do your times line up, and what has been the most important training element for developing speed endurance? Long tempo runs? Long runs 'with stuff'? Diet? Cross training? Something else? All of the above?

    Develop the endurance first. HADD training or something similar, a marathon training cycle etc. This takes patience, miles and time. Once this is developed tackle the speed.

    Rinse and repeat.


  • #148
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,414 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    ger664 wrote: »
    Develop the endurance first. HADD training or something similar, a marathon training cycle etc. This takes patience, miles and time. Once this is developed tackle the speed.

    Rinse and repeat.

    Three full marathon cycles in past 18 months! Mostly P&D. I did struggle a little with the LT/tempo runs.

    I suppose I'm asking for personal experiences, as perhaps the methods in marathon books like P&D, being generic, might be pitched at faster athletes. For me, moving to P&D for marathons 6, 7, 8 and 9 was not really a success, although there were external factors too (weather, etc.).


  • #149
    ger664
    Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭ger664


    Murph_D wrote: »
    Three full marathon cycles in past 18 months! Mostly P&D. I did struggle a little with the LT/tempo runs.

    I suppose I'm asking for personal experiences, as perhaps the methods in marathon books like P&D, being generic, might be pitched at faster athletes. For me, moving to P&D for marathons 6, 7, 8 and 9 was not really a success, although there were external factors too (weather, etc.).

    Ran My first 3 marathons in 3:58 3:52 3:41. In an effort to get a BQ time I tried 18 week P&D, I struggled with it and eventually got injured which sidelined me from serious training for over a year.
    Then I tried the hanson type method of run less faster. I blew up in the goal race due to lack of endurance going for a time that wasn't in the legs.
    What worked for me was HADD training (look over yaboya1 log) combined with multi marathons over a period of 9 months followed by 12 Week P&D. Marathons where ran every 3-4 weeks at a pace +30 minutes of PB at the time followed by 60 mins steady the day after. Nailed 3:21 in the goal trying to kick on since but life/work has not lined up to let me get the work done.


  • #150
    jaggiebunnet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭jaggiebunnet


    Is it worth doing some summary on who is using what plan for Dublin - just to see how we all think it works out plan, target time, pb ? I will go first! Note: I am having severe rethinks on my choice of plan with all the options getting thrown around but I know I am too lazy to read enough before Monday start for the 18 week plan.

    Name|Training Plan|Target Time|PB
    jaggiebunnet|P&D18 55|3:25|3:32


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  • #151
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,414 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Interesting - my first few marathons (4:02, 3:46, 3:36) would be similar to yours results-wise - am familiar with yaboya's log and have read the hadd material - good to know someone else has used it successfully!


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