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Milk and Dairy

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 87 ✭✭Serendipity99


    I make these a lot and they're better than egg-based pancakes:

    http://veganireland.vegaplanet.org/recipes-desserts.php#bananacream

    (you might need to scroll down a bit)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 87 ✭✭Serendipity99


    Here is a 5-minute video showing (mainly) the environmental impact of not going vegan: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8q388_go-vegan-for-planet-earth_animals

    And here are some answers to questions vegans often get asked: http://www.carnism.com/responses-to-common-questions-about-and-challenges-to-vegetarianism.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,365 ✭✭✭spoonbadger


    I grew up on a dairy farm, and this thread title really grabbed my attention. I would consider myself very liberal and in general agree with the vegan philosophy, but i would never have gone so far as to say that milk production ranks high in the list of cruel things in this world. I was going to point out how well most cows are treated (yes, i realize that it's still in captivity) compared to many animals, wild/free or otherwise and all the other pro-milk points.

    But reading that first post kinda killed my enthusiasm : / All those points are true, and were things i had just kinda accepted from my upbringing as being normal, but you're right; it's definitely not natural. I'm not going to turn vegan anytime soon (yes, i'm lazy and ethically apathetic) but i do agree that it's definitely not right to treat animals like that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭vaalea


    I grew up on a dairy farm, ....All those points are true, and were things i had just kinda accepted from my upbringing as being normal, but you're right; it's definitely not natural.

    ditto





    here is a recent post i made on facebook

    Today is mother's day in Ireland. Lets have a thought for our unappreciated "surrogate mothers", the ones whose milk we continue to drink through our adult lives. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M7nfx1eanE


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 87 ✭✭Serendipity99


    I would say that the majority of people in Ireland have no clue as to what is involved in milk production. Why not let them know? Here are some emails - why not send a short email and include a link to one of those milk videos:

    RTE Radio 1:
    Derek Mooney: mooney@rte.ie
    Joe Duffy - Liveline: joe@rte.ie
    Pat Kenny: todaypk@rte.ie
    Marian Finucane: marian@rte.ie

    RTE Television:
    Ear to the Ground: eartotheground@agtel.ie

    Irish Organisations that promote milk and eggs:
    Bord Bia: info@bordbia.ie
    National Dairy Counci: info@ndc.ie

    Letters to the Editor of Newspapers:
    Irish Times: lettersed@irishtimes.com
    Irish Independent: independent.letters@independent.ie
    The Examiner: editor@examiner.ie


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭sweet-rasmus


    Ear to the Ground, Bord Bia and the National Dairy Council would have no wish to acknowledge what we have to say. Their work very much is based on the dairy industry. The papers and the radio may listen to any concerns though, and might ask Bord Bia etc. for their opinions if they were to present our views.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 87 ✭✭Serendipity99


    Derek Mooney is very keen on animal issues (although mainly wildlife) but I'd say he'd be interested all right.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭BnB


    Firstly, apologies for dragging up an old thread. I came across this thread a few months back because it was on the front page and I had always meant to come back to reply to it. Only got round to it now.
    I fully respect anyone’s decision to be a vege or a vegan. But, please base your beliefs on facts. I was stunned by the number of utter lies being brandied about here as "facts"

    I grew up on a dairy farm in the West of Ireland. I'm not farming myself now but a few of my friends are. My comments below relate to the dairy industry in Ireland. (I don't know anything about the industry outside of Ireland)

    A few "facts" from the first post :
    -Calves separated from their mothers at birth, causing severe stress.
    -Male calves (babies, essentially) are slaughtered because they are surplus to requirements.

    Calves are usually separated from their mothers at about 3 days old. They are then either bucket fed or reared by another cow. Usually an older cow who isn't a great milker any more would rear 1 or 2 calves). Calves are most certainly NOT "Slaughtered" because they are surplus to requirement. Friesen (the breed of cow most commonly used for milking) heifer calves are obviously very valuable are would be reared by the farmer to eventually become cows. There is pretty much no veal market in Ireland so all other calves are reared to cattle for the beef industry. Now, I can understand that you might have a problem with the beef industry and that's fair enough. But these calves will come from dairy herds, or they will come from sucking herds.

    -Cows udders are massive (this is totally unnatural).
    -Cows suffer from lameness and mastitis as a result .
    Cows do not suffer from Mastitis or lameness as a result of anything but nature. Mastitis can occur when a cow is not milked regularly or milked fully. It might shock you to know, women who are breast feeding can and sometimes do also suffer from mastitis. Suckling cows, (Cows who are used only to rear a calf) are more likely to suffer from mastitis that a dairy cow as they are not "milked" by the calf as regularly as a dairy cow is milked.

    Mastitis is a curse on dairy farmers and they are always on the lookout for it. When it occurs is treated straight away, and the milk from a treated cow is withheld from supply until all traces of the mastitis and the treatment are gone from the cows system. Every single milk collection from the farmer is tested by the co-ops and any trace of either will result in a reduced price to the farmer and/or fines.

    -Cows are kept pregnant constantly (through artificial insemination) in order to produce milk all year round.

    This is just mental - utterly mental.

    Firstly, the use of "Artificial Insemination" as a scaremongering term. To explain what artificial insemination is. It is the very same concept as a sperm bank that Humans use. Prime bulls have their semen stored in dry ice. A farmer can pick the best bull from a catalog and when his cow is ovulating ("bulling" is the agricultural term) he calls up the AI company to come out.

    Secondly, the cow does not get pregnant any more than she would naturally. A dairy cow will have a calf usually around March - April. She will ovulate again around July at which point, if the farmer is using AI, the AI man will be called. Or if, (as in most cases) the farmer has his own bull, the bull will be in the field with the cows. He will sniff that the cow is bullin, and he'll do his thing.
    The cow will continue to be milked usually up until around November, maybe early December. At that point the cow will stop producing milk naturally and will be "dried off for the year. That is it until they calve again the following spring.

    In no way or at no time is the situation forced. If you took 100 cows and a few bulls and left them loose on a few hundred acres, the very same cycle would continue ad nauseum. Calf born in spring, Cow comes bulling a few months later , bull does his thing, new calf born next spring.
    The only way the cycle is ever tampered with in any way, is that some bigger farmers will have a second round of cows calving in later summer who will continue to give milk until January or February. They have the same 12 month cycle, but it just happens later in the year.
    By doing this, the farmer will make sure that he has some cows milking all year round. While his Spring calvers are dry in Winter, his summer calvers will still be milking. And by the time his Summer calvers are dry, his spring calvers will be coming back in.

    -Cows all end up in the slaughterhouse when they are not deemed 'useful' any longer.

    I cannot argue with that. It is true. But what I would say that the life of a dairy cow is probably the best life of any farm animal. At the minute a fairly average dairy cow would cost you a minimum of €1,500. A very good cow could cost you up to €3,000 and more. Do you honestly think farmers are mistreating these animals. Purely from an economic point of view, they have to be looked after. Also, the quality of what they eat and their lives in general will directly affect the quality of their milk (which is tested and which will decide how a farmer is paid). So dairy cows get the best of grass, the best of meal, and the best of vetinary care.


    There was a lot of scaremongering crap in the posts here and in those films.
    Rainforests....!!!!! If you can show me how the dairy industry in Ireland caused a single freggin tree in the rainforest to be cut down, then I'll eat by freggin hat.

    There are NO antibiotics and/or growth hormones in Irish milk. You just would not get away with it. As I said above, if for any reason a cow has to go on anti-biotics, their milk is not added to the tank for a period of time, and if it was, it would be picked up on by the co-op. Hormones are a huge No-no. You are talking about jail time if you are f**king around with those.


    I can honestly see why someone would become a vegetarian. I was on a big commercial pig farm for the first time lately, and I can honestly tell you, it is not a nice place and it certainly makes me think twice about eating pork products since. But dairy farming in Ireland isn't even close to that.

    Anyway, I'm not trying to tell anyone that they are wrong to give up dairy. I am just saying that if you are doing so, you should do it based on facts and not a mixture of exaggerations, scaremongering and blatant lies.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Very good post! A lot of people see things done in other countries and assume it is done here in exactly the same way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭Kruk


    BnB wrote: »
    I fully respect anyone’s decision to be a vege or a vegan. But, please base your beliefs on facts. I was stunned by the number of utter lies being brandied about here as "facts".

    I know you're talking about Ireland but the author of this thread didn't say that she/he refers to Irish dairy industry only. She/he meant general dairy industry (Irish market is only a part of global dairy market). And in general these things are facts proven by dozens of undercover investigations and documentaries. They're not lies. I've seen them myself so I don't think I was lieing myself. The fact that it might look different in Ireland doesn't mean we can "label" them as lies.
    I grew up on a dairy farm in the West of Ireland. I'm not farming myself now but a few of my friends are. My comments below relate to the dairy industry in Ireland. (I don't know anything about the industry outside of Ireland)

    I had a chance to compare Irish dairy industry with other countries where I lived and yes you're right. Irish cows are treated better than cows in other countries. But this doesn't mean they don't suffer.

    First of all, let's straight something out here, the exploitation of any animals (e.g. "because people like the taste of milk") is unethical and painful. Animals don't belong to us and they're not our property. They have feelings, intelligence and they feel pain just as we do (btw. humans are also animals). We have no right to prey on them. Yes, our culture is based on the exploitation of animals, but that doesn't mean that it is appropriate, if you do it a little more gently.

    For example:
    Calves are usually separated from their mothers at about 3 days old.

    That's a part of cruelty too. Studies show that cows are experiencing trauma when their children are taken away. It causes a lot of pain. In addition to physical abuse there is also psychological violence, which is present on the farms.
    I cannot argue with that. It is true. But what I would say that the life of a dairy cow is probably the best life of any farm animal. At the minute a fairly average dairy cow would cost you a minimum of €1,500. A very good cow could cost you up to €3,000 and more. Do you honestly think farmers are mistreating these animals. Purely from an economic point of view, they have to be looked after. Also, the quality of what they eat and their lives in general will directly affect the quality of their milk (which is tested and which will decide how a farmer is paid). So dairy cows get the best of grass, the best of meal, and the best of vetinary care.

    In theory yes, but in practice it just your assumption. Examples from the world rather suggest that these things don't prevent abuse. I see no reason why Ireland would be unique here. It's not a crime if you don't get caught. At the end of day circus people also used to say they don't harm animals because it wouldn't be good for business.

    As for other issues,
    Rainforests....!!!!! If you can show me how the dairy industry in Ireland caused a single freggin tree in the rainforest to be cut down, then I'll eat by freggin hat.

    As far as I see it didn't refer to Ireland directly. However, in general, meat and dairy industry do affect rainforests. But if you're looking for an Irish example, all dairy farms seriously contribute to global warming and oceanic deadzones (including Irish ones). I recommend to watch PlanEat movie regarding these issue.
    I was on a big commercial pig farm for the first time lately, and I can honestly tell you, it is not a nice place and it certainly makes me think twice about eating pork products since. But dairy farming in Ireland isn't even close to that.

    For you, maybe if you'd be a cow, you could disagree? :) It's easy to say what type of suffer is nicer if you're not the one who suffers. I'm not saying that the conditions on meat farms are the same, but the devaluation of the pain of animals on dairy farms isn't okay.

    I respect your opinions of course and I don't want to make you feel that I don't. However from my point of view it's all very simple. We just shouldn't use and kill animals as we don't need it to survive. We can easily live without meat and dairy. Actually either meat or dairy are not even healthy. Plant-based diet is very healthy. Not to mention that drinking other species milk is just unnatural. Would you drink a horse's milk too? Or dog's milk? Latte with German Shepherd's milk? ;) Cow's milk is made for calves not for humans and it's very simple to understand. And if you steal it to make money it is cruel to me. Especially if there are so many alternatives out there.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,383 ✭✭✭emeraldstar


    Very good post! A lot of people see things done in other countries and assume it is done here in exactly the same way.

    Exactly. Good to have some common sense in a thread filled with ignorant scaremongering.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Personally, I love milk. It's pretty much the greatest thing ever in the world.. ever.

    An ex of mine lived on a dairy farm and I can't say that the cows were treated badly at all tbh.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Kruk wrote: »

    First of all, let's straight something out here, the exploitation of any animals (e.g. "because people like the taste of milk") is unethical and painful. Animals don't belong to us and they're not our property. They have feelings, intelligence and they feel pain just as we do (btw. humans are also animals). We have no right to prey on them. Yes, our culture is based on the exploitation of animals, but that doesn't mean that it is appropriate, if you do it a little more gently.


    I respect your opinions of course and I don't want to make you feel that I don't. However from my point of view it's all very simple. We just shouldn't use and kill animals as we don't need it to survive. We can easily live without meat and dairy. Actually either meat or dairy are not even healthy. Plant-based diet is very healthy. Not to mention that drinking other species milk is just unnatural. Would you drink a horse's milk too? Or dog's milk? Latte with German Shepherd's milk? ;) Cow's milk is made for calves not for humans and it's very simple to understand. And if you steal it to make money it is cruel to me. Especially if there are so many alternatives out there.

    See, these are perfectly reasonable points to argue. Not everyone will agree with you, but it's obviously what you and many other vegans believe. So why not rely on these points rather than trying to convince people to become vegan on ethical grounds by implying that people who are living and buying their dairy products in Ireland are supporting cruelties that they aren't? I know you didn't start the thread btw but the person who did wasn't talking as much sense as you so I quoted you instead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭BnB


    Kruk wrote: »
    I know you're talking about Ireland but the author of this thread didn't say that she/he refers to Irish dairy industry only. She/he meant general dairy industry (Irish market is only a part of global dairy market). And in general these things are facts proven by dozens of undercover investigations and documentaries. They're not lies. I've seen them myself so I don't think I was lieing myself. The fact that it might look different in Ireland doesn't mean we can "label" them as lies.


    I do feel that these are being posted up on an Irish Message board by Irish people it is very much implying that they are true to the Irish Market. And I felt the need to point out that a lot of these facts that were being posted did not hold true in Ireland.

    I understand what you are saying RE Ireland being part of a global market, but the vast vast majority of dairy products bought in Ireland come from Irish farms.
    Kruk wrote: »
    In theory yes, but in practice it just your assumption. Examples from the world rather suggest that these things don't prevent abuse. I see no reason why Ireland would be unique here. It's not a crime if you don't get caught. At the end of day circus people also used to say they don't harm animals because it wouldn't be good for business.

    I'm not talking in theories. I'm talking facts. I grew up on a dairy farm. I am living now surrounded by dairy farms. I see it and hear about it every day. Lads often spend thousands on vets fees to get a good cow who is sick for whatever reason back to good health.
    Kruk wrote: »
    I respect your opinions of course and I don't want to make you feel that I don't. However from my point of view it's all very simple. We just shouldn't use and kill animals as we don't need it to survive. We can easily live without meat and dairy. Actually either meat or dairy are not even healthy. Plant-based diet is very healthy. Not to mention that drinking other species milk is just unnatural. Would you drink a horse's milk too? Or dog's milk? Latte with German Shepherd's milk? ;) Cow's milk is made for calves not for humans and it's very simple to understand. And if you steal it to make money it is cruel to me. Especially if there are so many alternatives out there.

    That is perfectly reasonable point. But I didn't come on here to argue against anyone being a Vegan. I just wanted to dispute a lot of posts and stuff that I had read in the thread that were not true.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭vaalea


    Just because every fact isn't true for every farm, in every country, doesn't make it less relevant.

    It doesn't even matter what is true or not of the Irish industry, we have to consider the world as a whole with our international trade. Should the irish be the only ones in the world allowed to consume dairy? If the irish are doing it so great, then maybe they should be exporting more dairy to reduce pressure of intensive farming elsewhere? Is dairy and meat even sustainable, even in Ireland? Even if Ireland isn't the worst, is it still acceptable? Is it the best use of resources?

    "Ireland relies more on imports of animal feed than any other country in the European Union; quite simply because we do not have enough land to even approach self-sufficiency in the protein supplements required for our animal feed ingredients.The provision of high protein feed is a critical requirement for the Irish beef, pig and poultry sectors. This animal feed is derived from imported GM soybean and GM maize products (corn gluten feed, distillers dried grain), which are primarily sourced from the US, Brazil and Argentina." http://www.gmoinfo.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=1

    http://www.quinns.ie/animal-feed-agriculture.htm#Catch_Crops-_Their_Role_in_Irish_Agriculture "Forage crops are now playing an increasingly important role in Irish Agriculture. The feeding of livestock economically and efficiently puts ever greater pressure on producers...."

    “The soy crop now covers an area of South America larger than the UK. It is grown to feed chickens, cows and pigs in Europe… Europe imports a third of Brazil's soy harvest.... Converting land for agriculture is a major cause of deforestation in Brazil, Paraguay and Argentina. While some soy fields were created from previously cleared pasture in the savannah grasslands, much of it was newly-cleared forest land.” http://www.foecardiff.co.uk/content/fix-food-chain

    Grass-fed only? look even here http://www.independent.ie/farming/dairy/compact-calving-myth-1892535.html they talk about "The emphasis placed on 'grass only' as a complete diet has also resulted in depressed pregnancy rates...The tight grazing of grass -- commonly referred to as 'golf-ball grazing' or 'controlled starvation' -- will maintain a pasture sward of excellent quality. But this system places a lot of pressure on cows and, on a welfare basis, is indeed questionable."

    Ireland could be growing real food to feed a greater population than forage crops processed by cows. After seeing these kinds of videos I can't believe that any land cannot be used for human food: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSKSxLHMv9k and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpq6s34Q67Q

    Whether we put them there or not, there are hormones in milk. ""Among the routes of human exposure to estrogens, we are mostly concerned about cow's milk, which contains considerable amounts of female sex hormones," Ganmaa told her audience. Dairy, she added, accounts for 60 percent to 80 percent of estrogens consumed.
    Part of the problem seems to be milk from modern dairy farms, where cows are milked about 300 days a year. For much of that time, the cows are pregnant. The later in pregnancy a cow is, the more hormones appear in her milk.
    Milk from a cow in the late stage of pregnancy contains up to 33 times as much of a signature estrogen compound (estrone sulfate) than milk from a non-pregnant cow.
    In a study of modern milk in Japan, Ganmaa found that it contained 10 times more progesterone, another hormone, than raw milk from Mongolia.
    In traditional herding societies like Mongolia, cows are milked for human consumption only five months a year, said Ganmaa, and, if pregnant, only in the early stages. Consequently, levels of hormones in the milk are much lower." http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html When you consider that menopausal medication like premarin (estrogen from pregnant horse urine) is animal-based estrogen, these animal hormones are powerful in the human body, unlike those from plants.

    And if it is not cows, then it is horses and greyhounds. Many more are born than race, where do they go? And they are retired from racing eventually, where do they go? It’s a culture of treatment towards animals. I imagine there are other reasons that there are no CAFOs in Ireland than simply the irish care more about their animals. Once other countries also didn’t have CAFOs.
    “Approximately 20,000 greyhound puppies are registered each year in Ireland” http://www.tipp.ie/sportsandevents/greyhounds.htm where do they go?
    “Ireland has a poor record on greyhound welfare. I am not referring solely to the greyhounds used in the sports industry. At the peak of the industry, approximately 25,000 greyhounds were born in Ireland every year. This is a huge number by comparison with the number of births in other countries. Typically, only 80 greyhounds were adopted into Irish homes per year and between 430 and 450 were adopted into European homes at the end of their racing lives. The worrying point is that 14,000 greyhounds disappear annually from the Irish radar. This is and should be a cause of serious concern. Not all the greyhounds to which I refer were used for racing; many were bred outside the industry, allegedly as pets, and were often used for illegal racing. http://www.igb.ie/top/Talking-Dogs/Reviews-And-Releases/Welfare-of-Greyhounds-Bill-2011-Second-Stage2/
    Do I believe that the Irish care more about their cows than their greyhounds??


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    vaalea wrote: »
    Just because every fact isn't true for every farm, in every country, doesn't make it less relevant.

    Kinda does actually.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    I listened to a couple of debates on the radio over the years from vegans that were advocating the total ban on animals and animal products. Moncrieff had a lady on last year that wanted us to go off meat and animal products overnight and switch to healthy organic food. You know one of those nice simple ideas that didn't have practical thought obstructing it.

    Lets say that happens, what happens to the animals? Do we cull the herds? The cows still need to be milked or it suffers pain. Do we switch to organic vegetables and fruit? Where does the farmer get his farm yard manure seening that we have less animals to produce it but increased demand for farm yard manure?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    -Calves separated from their mothers at birth, causing severe stress.





    Just out of curiosity, how do you know that its causes "severe stress"? Do you have a way of measuring how stressed a cow is? Are these animals intelligent enough to feel stress or any emotion at a point of separation?


  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭sparks24


    pconn062 wrote: »
    -Calves separated from their mothers at birth, causing severe stress.





    Just out of curiosity, how do you know that its causes "severe stress"? Do you have a way of measuring how stressed a cow is? Are these animals intelligent enough to feel stress or any emotion at a point of separation?

    So drinking milk is cruel to cows

    So does eating vegetables and fruit picked by the poor cruel to people?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    pconn062 wrote: »
    -Calves separated from their mothers at birth, causing severe stress.





    Just out of curiosity, how do you know that its causes "severe stress"? Do you have a way of measuring how stressed a cow is? Are these animals intelligent enough to feel stress or any emotion at a point of separation?

    If you've ever been within about a half a mile of a cow when she's had her calf taken off her you'll know how distressed they get.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭PurpleFistMixer


    Corsendonk wrote: »
    I listened to a couple of debates on the radio over the years from vegans that were advocating the total ban on animals and animal products. Moncrieff had a lady on last year that wanted us to go off meat and animal products overnight and switch to healthy organic food. You know one of those nice simple ideas that didn't have practical thought obstructing it.

    Lets say that happens, what happens to the animals? Do we cull the herds? The cows still need to be milked or it suffers pain. Do we switch to organic vegetables and fruit? Where does the farmer get his farm yard manure seening that we have less animals to produce it but increased demand for farm yard manure?
    In practice, that's not going to happen. Everyone isn't going to suddenly switch to veganism over night. If we did somehow manage to pull off a trick like that, I'm sure the newfound collective willpower and compassion of the population would be able to figure something out for the existing farm animals.

    In reality, all that can happen (at best) is a gradual decrease in the demand for animal products, leading to a gradual decrease in the numbers of farm animals, no culling required.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    In practice, that's not going to happen. Everyone isn't going to suddenly switch to veganism over night. If we did somehow manage to pull off a trick like that, I'm sure the newfound collective willpower and compassion of the population would be able to figure something out for the existing farm animals.

    In reality, all that can happen (at best) is a gradual decrease in the demand for animal products, leading to a gradual decrease in the numbers of farm animals, no culling required.

    Yes but if we do have a substantial decrease in animals where do I source my manure? Artificial fertilizer prices are already through the roof, farm yard fertilizer would only decrease and demand increase as consumers move to fruit and veg. Human Manure? Are there any truely organic humans out there if i was an organic farmer? I can't see people happy to pay 3 euro's for a single carrot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭PurpleFistMixer


    Corsendonk wrote: »
    Yes but if we do have a substantial decrease in animals where do I source my manure? Artificial fertilizer prices are already through the roof, farm yard fertilizer would only decrease and demand increase as consumers move to fruit and veg. Human Manure? Are there any truely organic humans out there if i was an organic farmer? I can't see people happy to pay 3 euro's for a single carrot.
    If we had a substantial decrease in animals we would find other sources of manure. Just as if we have a substantial decrease in oil etc., we theoretically find other energy sources. Or we all starve and die, I suppose. Given there already exists artificial fertiliser, I would personally not accept "but we have to produce manure somehow" as an argument for keeping farm animals.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    If we had a substantial decrease in animals we would find other sources of manure. Just as if we have a substantial decrease in oil etc., we theoretically find other energy sources. Or we all starve and die, I suppose. Given there already exists artificial fertiliser, I would personally not accept "but we have to produce manure somehow" as an argument for keeping farm animals.


    So far you have given no practical answers just "well we will think of something". How do you think they produce artificial or Inorganic fertilizers? Fossil Fuels

    Wiki
    Inorganic fertilizers are now produced in ways which theoretically cannot be continued indefinitely by definition as the resources used in their production are non-renewable. Potassium and phosphorus come from mines (or saline lakes such as the Dead Sea) and such resources are limited. More effective fertilizer utilization practices may, however, decrease present usage from mines. Improved knowledge of crop production practices can potentially decrease fertilizer usage of P and K without reducing the critical need to improve and increase crop yields. Atmospheric (unfixed) nitrogen is effectively unlimited (forming over 70% of the atmospheric gases), but this is not in a form useful to plants. To make nitrogen accessible to plants requires nitrogen fixation (conversion of atmospheric nitrogen to a plant-accessible form).
    Artificial nitrogen fertilizers are typically synthesized using fossil fuels such as natural gas and coal, which are limited resources. In lieu of converting natural gas to syngas for use in the Haber process, it is also possible to convert renewable biomass to syngas (or wood gas) to supply the necessary energy for the process, though the amount of land and resources (ironically often including fertilizer) necessary for such a project may be prohibitive


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭Absurdum


    Corsendonk wrote: »
    So far you have given no practical answers just "well we will think of something". How do you think they produce artificial or Inorganic fertilizers? Fossil Fuels


    Soil conditioners/fertilizers that vegans can use, include:

    1.) Lime; which provides calcium and magnesium for your soil. Calcium is essential for strong plant growth and aids in the uptake of other nutrients. Most plants prefer a fairly neutral soil pH for optimum growth. Lime can be used to raise the soil pH level or 'sweeten the soil', if necessary. Your soil can be tested to see if you need to raise the pH level. Lime is used by some for breaking up heavy clay soil. Reducing the acidity of the soil is the primary purpose for using lime in the garden.

    2.) Gypsum (hydrated calcium sulfate) Gypsum is used where more calcium is needed without raising the pH.

    3.) Dolomite - is a finely ground rock dust and preferred source of calcium and magnesium.

    4.) Rock Phosphate - is used for its phosphorus content. Phosphorus is an essential element for plant and animal nutrition. It is mined in the form of phosphate rock, which formed in oceans in the form of calcium phosphate called phosphorite. The primary mineral in phosphate rock is apatite.

    5.) Rock Dusts (or Stonemeal) are slowly released into the soil and are used in an effort to re-mineralize soil that has become depleted through industrial and agricultural practices. Rock dusts can be applied directly to the soil, in combination with other fertilizers, or added to the compost. These products have a highly stimulating effect on microbial activity.

    6.) Rock Potash or potassium or wood ash - potassium is an essential plant nutrient that enhances flower and fruit production and helps ‘harden up’ foliage to make it less susceptible to disease. Rock potash is very slow-acting. The potash is released very gradually as the mineral weathers. This can take years. Use it when preparing the soil before planting.

    7.) Hay Mulches -Using a thick layer of hay to cover the earth will feed the soil with organic matter as it breaks down, suppress weeds, and encourage more worms to live in your soil. Put gardens to sleep over the winter and cover them with a very thick layer of hay mulch.

    8.) Composted Organic Matter consists of fruit and vegetable rinds, leaves, and grass clippings. A compost pile consists of food waste, i.e. peels from the kitchen, that is covered by course material like leaves, hay, or grass clippings. The object is to create layers of food material alternating with covering material to allow aeration. When a bin is full, the pile is flipped and covered by black plastic or weed mat to protect it from rainfall and create heat. It can be flipped again after a period of time, so the bottom becomes the top. Cover again and within a couple of months, depending on climate, nature's master recycling plan will have taken it's course and you will have vitamin rich soil.

    9.) Green Manures or Nitrogen-fixing crops - 'Green Manure' is a cover crop of plants tilled into the soil. Fast-growing plants, such as wheat, oats, rye, vetch, or clover, can be grown as cover crops between garden crops and then tilled into the garden as it is prepared for the next planting. Green manure crops absorb and use nutrients from the soil that might otherwise be lost through leaching and return these nutrients to the soil when they are tilled under. The root system of cover crops improves soil structure and helps prevent erosion. Nitrogen-fixing crops such as vetch, peas and broad beans (fava beans), and crimson clover add some nitrogen to the soil as they are turned under and decompose. Cover crops also help reduce weed growth during the fall and winter months.

    10.) Liquid Feeds such as Comfrey or Nettles

    11.) Seaweed (fresh, liquid or meal) is used for trace elements. Seaweed is best used harvested fresh from the sea as opposed to washed up and sitting on beaches. Some veganic gardeners use bulk spirulina or kelp meal (used for potash and trace minerals).

    12.) Neem - The Neem tree has been known as the wonder tree for centuries in India. Neem has been in use for centuries in Indian agriculture as the best natural pesticide and organic fertilizer with pest repellent properties and insect sterilization properties.

    13.) Green Sand - is used as a soil amendment and fertilizer and is mined from deposits of minerals that were originally part of the ocean floor. It is a natural source of potash, along with iron, magnesium, silica and as many as 30 other trace minerals. It may also be used to loosen heavy, clay soils. It has the consistency of sand but 10 times the moisture absorption.

    14.) EM Bokashi is a fertilizer being used by some vegans. EM means Effective Micro-organisms and consists of mixed cultures of beneficial naturally occurring micro-organisms such as lactic acid bacteria, yeast, photosynthetic bacteria and actinomycetes. Bokashi is a Japanese term that means 'fermented organic matter'. It is a bran-based material that has been fermented with EM liquid concentrate and dried for storage. Bokashi is a pleasant smelling product which you add to the compost to aid in the fermentation of the organic matter. (EM Bokashi should be stored in a warm, dry place out of direct sunlight).

    15.) 'No Till method', which ironically rhymes with 'NO KILL method' is a practice that does not till the earth and kill worms in the soil. It is more gentle, from a vegan standpoint, and worm castings is an excellent fertilizer for the soil.

    16.) Vermiculture, Vermicastings, Vermicomposting or Worm Castings - Worm castings are a rich, all-natural source of organic matter with lots of nutrients and moisture-holding capabilities. Earthworm castings are known to have an extraordinary effect on plant life. Castings improve the soil structure and increase fertility. Re-establish natural worm populations in your garden. Composting worms love cool, damp and dark environments (like under black weed mat or a thick layer of hay mulch), and will breed optimally when these conditions are maintained.

    17.) Alfalfa meal, Flax Seed Meal, Cottonseed Meal and Soya Meal are sources of nitrogen.

    18.) Epsom Salts are an excellent source of magnesium.

    I'm sure the fertilizer industry will tell us how ineffective these are...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    Absurdum wrote: »
    I'm sure the fertilizer industry will tell us how ineffective these are...

    Some of the products you listed are sold by the fertiliser industry...... epsom salts. lime etc so I say they wouldn't disagree with you using them. Surprisingly if you attend any organic growing courses the instructors preach on about the benefits of using FYM.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,666 ✭✭✭Worztron


    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭betsie


    good god if you had dead animals about the place like that on a farm here the dept of Ag would be down on you like a tn of bricks and rightly so, thankfully the shooting of calves is also very rare here (hope it stays that way)


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 87 ✭✭Serendipity99


    Exactly,
    That's why we send them abroad to be 'shot' there instead. As long as its 'not in my back yard' it's fine, is that what you're saying?


This discussion has been closed.
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