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Liberals who aren't liberal

  • 21-12-2018 12:46am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Mutant z


    There seems to be a trend of those who claim to be liberal but are completely intolerant of those who dont share their own world outlook. They are liberal as long as you agree with them but if anyone so much as strays from their own group think they are attacked, slandered and censored. Why are so many self proclaimed liberals in favour of tighter censorship laws and clamping down on freedom of speech, which is an essence of a true liberal society. Surely being liberal means supporting free speech whether you agree with it or not. The fact is liberalism is about supporting free speech and expression and opposing censorship which is the exact opposite to what so many who claim to be on the liberal spectrum have proposed. It seems liberalism has been hijacked by SJWs and college students, in favour of identity politics which is anything but liberal. Its time real liberals stood up and defended the true liberal values of freedom of speech and democracy.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    Conservatives complaining about a guy kneeling down during the American national anthem, yet also complain thst YouTube blocking Alex Jones in relation to Sandy Hook.


  • Site Banned Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭sk8erboii


    Mutant z wrote: »
    There seems to be a trend of those who claim to be liberal but are completely intolerant of those who dont share their own world outlook. They are liberal as long as you agree with them but if anyone so much as strays from their own group think they are attacked, slandered and censored. Why are so many self proclaimed liberals in favour of tighter censorship laws and clamping down on freedom of speech, which is an essence of a true liberal society. Surely being liberal means supporting free speech whether you agree with it or not. The fact is liberalism is about supporting free speech and expression and opposing censorship which is the exact opposite to what so many who claim to be on the liberal spectrum have proposed. It seems liberalism has been hijacked by SJWs and college students, in favour of identity politics which is anything but liberal. Its time real liberals stood up and defended the true liberal values of freedom of speech and democracy.

    ‘Wtf? Why dont these supposed liberals agree with my intolerant worldviews! Dont they see their hypocrisy in preaching interdependence while silencing me, someone who espouses tribalism? Im literally being oppressed cause they dont agree with me. HEEEELP’

    Why are ‘conservatives’ actually just manchildren with persecution complexes?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,812 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec


    There's certainly some of what you're talking about going on op, and it's very damaging. But I notice that on this site, and more broadly, people on the right and far right seem to describe anybody calling their statements into question as "shouting people down" or "censoring" or "silencing". In other words, any attempt to actually subject their free speech to scrutiny or dissent is characterised as an attempt to infringe on free speech. It is, ironically, a pretty effective silencing tactic, given the gradual ascent of right wing viewpoints on boards for example. People who disagree are always pre-insulted by someone saying "in before the libtards" or whatever. After a while, no dissent happens. That's not particularly conducive to a liberal society either, and nor is caricaturing your opponents as sjws.


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,722 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Because radical liberalists and radical conservatives are actually the same person, just blind to that fact.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,145 ✭✭✭LETHAL LADY


    It's all well and good being a liberal in a region of the world that allows it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,875 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I have an issue wth the word 'liberal' being used as a noun.

    You can have a liberal outlook on she aspects of society or economics, but non BE a liberal.

    Same goes for conservative, to be fair.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,812 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec


    It's all well and good being a liberal in a region of the world that allows it.
    I've always wondered what on Earth people mean when they say this. I'd love an explanation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭hill16bhoy


    The OP just comes across as whiny and try hard.

    It's the constant irrational whinging like that that has increasingly pushed people away from the reactionary right that held back this country for decades, and towards liberalism.

    Every time David Quinn, John Waters or Breda O'Brien open their mouths or have an article published, they push people in a more liberal direction.

    I say, let them keep doing that!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,145 ✭✭✭LETHAL LADY


    I've always wondered what on Earth people mean when they say this. I'd love an explanation.

    I'm replying to the op. I'd assume you are living in a part of the world where you are liberated. You can express an opinion and not fear the consequences?


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,875 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I'm replying to the op. I'd assume you are living in a part of the world where you are liberated. You can express an opinion and not fear the consequences.

    Depends on the opinion. If you're a Nazi, for example, and you expression here (as in Western civilisation) you'll soon be shut down, rightly or wrongly.

    (And no, that is NOT saying Nazis are downtrodden or hard-done-by, in case someone feels the need to miss the point)

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,812 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec


    Yo!! wrote: »
    I've always wondered what on Earth people mean when they say this. I'd love an explanation.

    Preach women and gay rights in Afghanistan and let me know how you get on.
    It wouldn't go well. What does that have to do with having liberal views in Ireland?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,812 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec


    I've always wondered what on Earth people mean when they say this. I'd love an explanation.

    I'm replying to the op. I'd assume you are living in a part of the world where you are liberated. You can express an opinion and not fear the consequences?
    Yeah, that's a good thing. What are you suggesting liberals should do?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,145 ✭✭✭LETHAL LADY


    Yeah, that's a good thing. What are you suggesting liberals should do?

    Maybe unclench? 😁


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,812 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec


    Yeah, that's a good thing. What are you suggesting liberals should do?

    Maybe unclench? ðŸ˜
    Maybe! :)
    But TBH the only people who say this tend to be people on the right, so I'm not sure what their point is: the whole point of having rights of freedom of speech is that we exercise it to progress. There's always some implication that there is some kind of hypocrisy going on because people say gay rights are good even though I'm some countries you could get in trouble for saying it. So again, not to be obtuse about it, but I genuinely don't understand what the point being made is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 691 ✭✭✭DS86DS


    Liberal Leftists today are anything but Liberal. They get their beliefs from the Frankfurt School of thought and other quasi Communist organisations.

    The Classical Liberalism of Voltaire and Thomas Jefferson meant freedom in all areas of life, including Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press.

    Leftists today not only hate these freedoms, but hate great men like Voltaire and Jefferson as evil old white men.

    Thankfully though we now have the internet, and are not dependent for all of our news from the Liberal mainstream media. Though Leftists are now looking to censor dissenting opinions on the internet as well. Just look at what happened to Alex Jones and Infowars.

    Leftists are all about censorship, virtue signalling and witch hunting.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,059 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Mutant z wrote: »
    There seems to be a trend of those who claim to be liberal but are completely intolerant of those who dont share their own world outlook. They are liberal as long as you agree with them but if anyone so much as strays from their own group think they are attacked, slandered and censored. Why are so many self proclaimed liberals in favour of tighter censorship laws and clamping down on freedom of speech, which is an essence of a true liberal society. Surely being liberal means supporting free speech whether you agree with it or not. The fact is liberalism is about supporting free speech and expression and opposing censorship which is the exact opposite to what so many who claim to be on the liberal spectrum have proposed. It seems liberalism has been hijacked by SJWs and college students, in favour of identity politics which is anything but liberal. Its time real liberals stood up and defended the true liberal values of freedom of speech and democracy.


    you really need to read this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,261 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Liberals? SJWs?

    There seems to be a trend of Irish people who get caught up in American culture wars BS.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭valoren


    It can also be a cover for bullying. The social justice bully. As in, latching onto genuine social causes and using them as a shield for abusive bullying behavior. The causes themselves give power. By exploiting genuine social causes it provides a bully a ready made deterrent from those who might react, argue or attempt to debate them, the benefit being that the person reacting is actually calling the bully to account for their poison but that reality can be readily distorted into being an attack on the social cause itself. Such cover allows toxic individuals free reign to be toxic individuals and get away with flagrant, incendiary behavior.

    We saw a good example of this with the Margaret Cash affair. There is a homeless problem clearly. Any one questioning that this might be a publicity stunt was pounced on. Anyone going against the homeless crisis diddums and giving some critical opinions seemed to be automatically someone who didn't care about the homeless crisis/was a hateful person criticizing a mother/hated travellers etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,469 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    Since when has all this talk of liberals and conservatives become a thing? Do families sit around discussing liberals vs conservatives at dinner or do friends hang out in the pub discussing left vs right policies? Does this kind of thing really keep people up at night?

    Dear god. I consider myself a bit of a boring arsehole but I look at what people posting online seem to think as normal conversation and suddenly I feel better about myself.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Since when has all this talk of liberals and conservatives become a thing? Do families sit around discussing liberals vs conservatives at dinner or do friends hang out in the pub discussing left vs right policies? Does this kind of thing really keep people up at night?

    Dear god. I consider myself a bit of a boring arsehole but I look at what people posting online seem to think as normal conversation and suddenly I feel better about myself.

    I think a lot of people are binging on nonsense US fake news sites like InfoWars and it's turning their brains into mush.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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  • Site Banned Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭sk8erboii


    Since when has all this talk of liberals and conservatives become a thing? Do families sit around discussing liberals vs conservatives at dinner or do friends hang out in the pub discussing left vs right policies? Does this kind of thing really keep people up at night?

    Dear god. I consider myself a bit of a boring arsehole but I look at what people posting online seem to think as normal conversation and suddenly I feel better about myself.

    Its mostly losers who spend too much time on 4chan.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 691 ✭✭✭DS86DS


    Liberals? SJWs?

    There seems to be a trend of Irish people who get caught up in American culture wars BS.

    Maybe because we are now suffering a culture war of the Left on Irish tradition and nationhood?

    Liberal and SJWs are terms used in many countries including Ireland.... Americans don't have some kind of ownership of the terms.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,717 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    People should stop with the f*cking labeling already.


  • Site Banned Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭sk8erboii


    DS86DS wrote: »
    Maybe because we are now suffering a culture war of the Left on Irish tradition and nationhood?

    Liberal and SJWs are terms used in many countries including Ireland.... Americans don't have some kind of ownership of the terms.

    The ‘left’ being just normal people living their lives?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    DS86DS wrote: »
    Liberal Leftists today are anything but Liberal. They get their beliefs from the Frankfurt School of thought and other quasi Communist organisations.

    The Classical Liberalism of Voltaire and Thomas Jefferson meant freedom in all areas of life, including Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press.

    Leftists today not only hate these freedoms, but hate great men like Voltaire and Jefferson as evil old white men.

    Thankfully though we now have the internet, and are not dependent for all of our news from the Liberal mainstream media. Though Leftists are now looking to censor dissenting opinions on the internet as well. Just look at what happened to Alex Jones and Infowars.

    Leftists are all about censorship, virtue signalling and witch hunting.

    Voltaire was a staunch advocate of "Enlightened Absolutism" - i.e absolute rule by a well educated monarch advised by a philosopher - such as himself. An Absolute Monarch for those unsure of what the term means is a monarch who is not bound by the law as he (or she) embodies the law. It's a bit of mental gymnastics up there with the RCC's "mental reservations".

    Thomas Jefferson was able to find time to write all his fine words as the slaves he owned were doing all the actual work of providing him with an income. He has many African American descendants today - seems impregnating women you literally owned was ok according to Jefferson's world view.

    There are the best examples you could find?
    A man who believed absolute and inherited power was the best way to govern and a man who was so hypocritical that when he wrote of all men being born equal he was able to deny the humanity of the black men (and women and children - including the ones he fathered) he owned.

    The believed in Freedom in all areas of life me hole.

    The rest of your post is even more poorly thought out and not worth responding to.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,261 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    I've never heard anyone use these terms offline. It's a sure-fire sign that you're spending too much time online and not enough living in the real world.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    DS86DS wrote: »
    Maybe because we are now suffering a culture war of the Left on Irish tradition and nationhood?

    Liberal and SJWs are terms used in many countries including Ireland.... Americans don't have some kind of ownership of the terms.

    Do you mean those lefties like James Connelly who literally began the Rising the lead to this Irish Nationhood you are banging on about?

    Or those Ulster Presbyterian lefties who first conceived of an Irish Republic?*

    Maybe it's that certainly not a rightie Robert Emmet with his dreams of a united Ireland who is proving to be such a bad influence? *

    You might wish to stop learning history off the internet or at least learn it from sites that have .edu in their address rather than .altrightbolex

    *about as contemporary as Voltaire or Jefferson so according to your previous example of top blokes we can use them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭orourkeda1977


    Mutant z wrote: »
    There seems to be a trend of those who claim to be liberal but are completely intolerant of those who dont share their own world outlook. They are liberal as long as you agree with them but if anyone so much as strays from their own group think they are attacked, slandered and censored. Why are so many self proclaimed liberals in favour of tighter censorship laws and clamping down on freedom of speech, which is an essence of a true liberal society. Surely being liberal means supporting free speech whether you agree with it or not. The fact is liberalism is about supporting free speech and expression and opposing censorship which is the exact opposite to what so many who claim to be on the liberal spectrum have proposed. It seems liberalism has been hijacked by SJWs and college students, in favour of identity politics which is anything but liberal. Its time real liberals stood up and defended the true liberal values of freedom of speech and democracy.

    True free speech is an illusion. Even in the United States.

    We all have thoughts and opinions that others will disagree with and some thoughts and opinions that may be considered controversial.

    Given the current climate, you have to weigh up whether or not it is prudent to express these opinions. This shouldn't apply if we had true freedom of speech.

    When you consider that playing "fairytale of New York" and "Rudolph the red nosed Reindeer" are almost considered hate speech by some of the delicate souls that exist, you're probably wise to keep your opinions to yourself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,741 ✭✭✭randd1


    The whole description of those on the left, and especially hard left, as liberals is something that has me bugged as well. I always thought those with a liberal outlook on life would be described as someone who would be of the idea of live and let live and don't interfere with someone's personal choices or their personal views.

    Both sides, left and right, rarely, if ever, stand for that at all. It's always about what should be allowed, what should be banned, what should be said, what shouldn't be said with them.

    Take the Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner scenario. Those on the right condemning him/her as some sort of destroyer of morality for having the cheek to talk about trans issues and women's and homosexual rights, all while in a dress. They would love nothing more than to see Jenner banned from TV.

    Even more nauseating is the left, who refuse to acknowledge that he's not actually a woman, but a man with implanted tits. And while he speaks well about important issues, it doesn't change the fact that he's a man, even if he identifies as a woman, so crying foul over people actually pointing this out and wanting them banned for doing so is no different to the "ban him for the greater good" culture to those on the right.

    It's not actually about freedom of speech or freedom of ideas and thoughts, it's about control of them for their own ideology.

    Whereas a genuine liberal couldn't give a f*ck either way, they would say Jenner may be a man but he's his own self, let Jenner have his tits and call himself what or who he wants, its his body and as long as he's not hurting anyone then who really cares.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    randd1 wrote: »
    Both sides, left and right, rarely, if ever, stand for that at all. It's always about what should be allowed, what should be banned, what should be said, what shouldn't be said with them.

    ....

    Even more nauseating is the left.....

    This is just imported US identity politics on full display. It's a cheap and easy way for people to dismiss other people and opinions they don't like by treating them as some form of "other" and you've just done the same here. You've just made a whole generalisation based on a caricature of left-wingers that's both ridiculous and suits your world view. It's like me saying that 60-something million Republican voters in the US want another Holocaust because some of them like to wave Swastika flags and salute pictures of Hitler.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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