Secondary or Further Ed Teaching?

mark2912 · 16-07-2020 12:28am #1

Hi,

I have recently completed a one-year PLC course, with the intention to progress this year into a 4-year Hons degree in Business Management.

I have always wanted to have a career in teaching, and chose to do a business degree so that I could then progress to the PME and in return become a secondary school teacher in Business and Accounting (the two subjects which I liked the most).

However, I am often advised that there may not be any job opportunities for these teachers in future years, and was advised by my course coordinator whilst studying my PLC course to consider a career in Further/Adult education.

I am just wondering what people's opinions are on which route would be best, secondary or further education?

I know very little about further education teaching and am just wondering if you all could enlighten me as to which would be better in the long run? e.g. job security, pay, benefits etc.

Many thanks,
Mark

Treppen · 16-07-2020 12:02pm

Search back through this forum on further education and you'll see it's an even more precarious position than secondary (in terms of job security).
But secondary business teachers are in over supply too, you seem to be good with numbers so explore maths too, some business teachers have had success in getting registered for maths because of their business degree modules.

But to be frank, you are looking at 7 years of college, then another 7-10 before a permanent full time job (worst case scenario). So financially it mightn't be a good business proposition. Depends on your own financial goals too. Some teachers head off abroad and get money together that way, but have nightmares getting established coming back.
Maybe you'll inherit a house near to where you want to settle down.

Once you're under no illusions and can commit to low/no pay for about 15 years then it might be the best thing you ever did!

I had a long road to a liveable income but don't regret it (looking back now).

F5500 · 16-07-2020 5:14pm

If you're looking towards secondary teaching spare a thought for the fact that you'll be dealing with teenagers for the rest of your working days.

Blondini · 16-07-2020 10:31pm

F5500 wrote: »

If you're looking towards secondary teaching spare a thought for the fact that you'll be dealing with teenagers for the rest of your working days.

This. And it is not getting any easier I tell ya.

Lisa2017 · 20-07-2020 2:46pm

Hi Mark, here’s my ten cents on your question...
if this Corona experience has taught us anything, it’s that life is unpredictable. We don’t know for sure what approach the government will take towards education and teachers in the future. Currently, it is a challenging environment and unfortunately moving in the same direction as the US system (in terms of teachers pay and terms and conditions) but that could change, who knows. I am a business studies teacher in further education (FE) (currently on career break). Like you, I had always wanted to teach and did so for 19 years. I would like to point out that I did start teaching in FE back when teaching was a different profession to how it is now (ie there were more jobs and fair pay and conditions for new e grants). However, my advice to you is to make your decision with a balanced view and not to rule out teaching. As others have rightly pointed out, it takes time (approx 6 years) to get qualified. Then there is a chance that things may be the same as they are now and it may take more time to get hours, a decent contract and so on. It’s possible. But knowing this possibility, if your feeling is - that it’s worth it because you really want to teach, then go for it! Personally I don’t know anyone who went into teaching for the money (the holidays back in the day, maybe lol, but many teachers work off peak to supplement their income to meet living costs etc. so it’s usually for the teaching itself). When you have a strong desire to do something even when you know the possible risks/challenges, it’s often the right choice to go for it! If you qualify as a secondary school teacher, to the best of my knowledge, you also have the option of teaching in FE, but not the other way around. So, that may be a consideration for you - whether you would like to increase your options by taking the secondary school route. You already know what you want to do! Wishing you the best whatever you decide.

salonfire · 22-07-2020 4:57pm

Lisa2017 wrote: »

Hi Mark, here’s my ten cents on your question...
if this Corona experience has taught us anything, it’s that life is unpredictable. We don’t know for sure what approach the government will take towards education and teachers in the future. Currently, it is a challenging environment and unfortunately moving in the same direction as the US system (in terms of teachers pay and terms and conditions) but that could change, who knows. I am a business studies teacher in further education (FE) (currently on career break). Like you, I had always wanted to teach and did so for 19 years. I would like to point out that I did start teaching in FE back when teaching was a different profession to how it is now (ie there were more jobs and fair pay and conditions for new e grants). However, my advice to you is to make your decision with a balanced view and not to rule out teaching. As others have rightly pointed out, it takes time (approx 6 years) to get qualified. Then there is a chance that things may be the same as they are now and it may take more time to get hours, a decent contract and so on. It’s possible. But knowing this possibility, if your feeling is - that it’s worth it because you really want to teach, then go for it! Personally I don’t know anyone who went into teaching for the money (the holidays back in the day, maybe lol, but many teachers work off peak to supplement their income to meet living costs etc. so it’s usually for the teaching itself). When you have a strong desire to do something even when you know the possible risks/challenges, it’s often the right choice to go for it! If you qualify as a secondary school teacher, to the best of my knowledge, you also have the option of teaching in FE, but not the other way around. So, that may be a consideration for you - whether you would like to increase your options by taking the secondary school route. You already know what you want to do! Wishing you the best whatever you decide.

What are the basis for these claims regarding pay?

Teachers pay has only being going up in recent years including leap-frogging salary scales and across the board increases. Pay is at least the same if not higher now than prior to the last recession. E.g. Point 10 was €44,000 in '08 vs €49,978 now

Treppen · 23-07-2020 3:01am

salonfire wrote: »

What are the basis for these claims regarding pay?

Teachers pay has only being going up in recent years including leap-frogging salary scales and across the board increases. Pay is at least the same if not higher now than prior to the last recession. E.g. Point 10 was €44,000 in '08 vs €49,978 now

Where did you get that '08 figure?

Also keep in mind that a '08 entrant typiclly started on pt. 2 or pt.3 of the scale depending.
So Someone on a pt. 10 now would be on a pt.12 or 13 back then which is at least >51k (with allowances to be added on top of that)

The Allowances on top for '08 would be worth around 6k p/a (assuming a masters, which is what a PME is now).

Do you have any actual advice for the OP salonfire ? (keeping in mind salonfire's not actually a teacher OP)

salonfire · 23-07-2020 7:56am

Treppen wrote: »

Where did you get that '08 figure?

Also keep in mind that a '08 entrant typiclly started on pt. 2 or pt.3 of the scale depending.
So Someone on a pt. 10 now would be on a pt.12 or 13 back then which is at least >51k (with allowances to be added on top of that)

New teachers will leap-frog some points allowing them reach point 10 in the same number of years as an older teacher.

Treppen wrote: »

The Allowances on top for '08 would be worth around 6k p/a (assuming a masters, which is what a PME is now).

Thanks for proving my point. As I thought, the figures are largely equivalent; i.e €44,000 in '08 vs €49,978 (new scale) now.

Treppen wrote: »

Do you have any actual advice for the OP salonfire ? (keeping in mind salonfire's not actually a teacher OP)

Yes, my advice to OP is not to let teachers propaganda on crushing pay cuts to cloud their judgment on what they want to do. The reality is not quite as portrayed.

Treppen · 23-07-2020 8:45am

salonfire wrote: »

New teachers will leap-frog some points allowing them reach point 10 in the same number of years as an older teacher.

Thanks for proving my point. As I thought, the figures are largely equivalent; i.e €44,000 in '08 vs €49,978 (new scale) now.

Yes, my advice to OP is not to let teachers propaganda on crushing pay cuts to cloud their judgment on what they want to do. The reality is not quite as portrayed.

Where did you get the '08 figure?

salonfire · 23-07-2020 8:56am

Treppen wrote: »

Where did you get the '08 figure?

Strange how as soon as anyone challenges the narrative here, evidence is called for immediately. Yet sweeping generalizations from teachers go unchallenged.

The Wayback Machine allows you lookup a snapshot of websites from years ago so I checked the TUI website from 08. Google it, you'll see what I mean.

Treppen · 23-07-2020 11:12am

salonfire wrote: »

Strange how as soon as anyone challenges the narrative here, evidence is called for immediately. Yet sweeping generalizations from teachers go unchallenged.

The Wayback Machine allows you lookup a snapshot of websites from years ago so I checked the TUI website from 08. Google it, you'll see what I mean.

Thanks I did.

Here's the 2008 link I used

https://web.archive.org/web/20081029132559/http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html

PT. 10 is €45,206

Also Did you include or exclude the qualifying allowance for hdip+masters ?

salonfire · 23-07-2020 12:20pm

Treppen wrote: »

Thanks I did.

Here's the 2008 link I used

https://web.archive.org/web/20081029132559/http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html

PT. 10 is €45,206

Also Did you include or exclude the qualifying allowance for hdip+masters ?

I excluded since they no longer apply.

So €51200 (€45,206 + 6k allowances) in 08 vs €49,978 now for the new entrant. Granted, there is a difference of 2.3%.

For old entrants teachers, even better €51200 vs €53958 (€47,958 + 6k allowances)

Not quite the bone-crunching cuts as made out.

History Queen · 23-07-2020 12:23pm

salonfire wrote: »

I excluded since they no longer apply.

So €51200 (€45,206 + 6k allowances) in 08 vs €49,978 now for the new entrant. Granted, there is a difference of 2.3%.

For old entrants teachers, even better €51200 vs €53958 (€47,958 + 6k allowances)

Not quite the bone-crunching cuts as made out.

Old payscale start on higher point so you should compare old scale pt 12 with new scale pt10.
Allowances still apply on old scale so should be added in too.

Edit: also compared to 2011 when the cuts first came in, some of the difference has been clawed back

Treppen · 23-07-2020 8:00pm

salonfire wrote: »

I excluded since they no longer apply

But comparing now to 2008 your saying the allowances don't apply now so you didn't choose to put them into the 2008!

Dude, I could only imagine you back in 2008 writing to the department asking them to remove your automatic allowances because they won't be applied to new entrants in the future :pac:

Secondary or Further Ed Teaching?

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