BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

thomasj · 15-05-2017 2:27pm

cgcsb wrote:

I know the detail wasn't covered in the (now defunct??) BRT plan but I'd really like to see how it is proposed to implement the BRT between the maple centre and the quays. Seems an impossible bottleneck really.

I'd love to know that myself, I hope either the old Cabra road or blackhorse avenue becomes bus only

StreetLight · 15-05-2017 6:22pm

bk wrote: »

But that begs the question, why not a similar service to go up Swords Road, turn right onto Griffith Avenue and then left onto and up Malahide Road?

I don't know for sure, but that may be due to a 3.5 tonne vehicle weight limit at that right turn to Griffith Avenue. The traffic island there seems to deliberately jut out to make it difficult for any large vehicle contemplating taking the risk.

AlekSmart · 15-05-2017 9:52pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

...... Infact, if you were committing to this properly, you'd have a small bus service running from the Square to Kingswood LUAS and back again, and look at delivering another small bus service going from the Square to Ballymount Industrial Estate and back (and other small services feeding in there as necessary).

Or alternatively, if you were totally going back to the drawing board, you'd have an interchange at the Square with a high frequency express service heading into town from there on as direct a route as possible and look at small feeder services to the bus / LUAS interchange at the Square. Then you'd look at utilizing the ring road for 76 type services as required.

If none of those types of routes have succeeded up till now, it's because they've been badly implemented as standalone initiatives.

The Square,in it's heyday,was as clsoe as we could manage to an "Interchange"....20 years on,and we have a rather forlorn setup,none of which makes the Public Transport option remotely attractive...(Including LUAS).

Today,The Square,and to a lesser extent CityWest,sit bubbling away as an ideal location for a Bus Feeder service to Blessington,Ballymore,Dunlavin,Hollywood and environs,but instead the N81 is allowed to develop even further into a passable impersonation of the M50.

Perhaps the erstwhile Jarret Walker,will see the potential in having a Transit Interchange and a busy Town Centre Mall each serving to increase the potential of the other.....not much point in expecting the natives to have much truck with that sorta thing.... :rolleyes:

cgcsb · 15-05-2017 11:14pm

thomasj wrote: »

I'd love to know that myself, I hope either the old Cabra road or blackhorse avenue becomes bus only

That'd be impossible, you'd need to maintain access to houses.

dublinman1990 · 15-05-2017 11:54pm

I think there will be a lot of potential winners & losers in this new network redesign from Dublin Bus & the NTA. It is going to become quite a complex job and a hard sell to get it absolutely right from day 1 of operation for commuters & other passengers alike within a deadline of 12 months.

If they are serious about making changes to routes that are inherited from Dublin's old tram network; they may have to make huge decisions on what routes would need to be scrapped or to need to be retained. The route numbering system for Dublin Bus is one area that could get addressed in what way it is going to be next year if more or less route numbers have to be used on them.

There are 99 day routes in Dublin Bus with 13 Xpresso routes & 18 Nitelink routes. That's a total of 130 routes alone. Would the NTA & Dublin Bus have the authority to decide to reduce the number of routes available or increase them. Or will the public have the chance to do that or would they agree on a compromise.

I would like to ask about the legal status of marked in drivers working on all of these routes. Let's say after lots of negotiation with these companies & the public that a route does get eventually scrapped from the network. Would happens to the affected drivers working on them. Is their a guarantee that they will get a new route or would their job be under threat from future changes to the network.

What's the situation regarding bus tendering for some Dublin Bus routes going out to private operators.

Will that process be scrapped soon or will it still go ahead as planned? What will happen if Dublin Bus get awarded the tendered routes back?

antoinolachtnai · 16-05-2017 5:40pm

Routes not run by a local or regional authority's own operator have to be tendered That's EU law.

Boulevardier · 16-05-2017 7:42pm

I am glad this thread was put up, because otherwise I would know almost nothing about it.

I cannot see any reference to it on the NTA website.

When (if at all) will the NTA be inviting public input?

Bray Head · 16-05-2017 9:03pm

Any sensible review should recommend two new depots near the M50, one in the east and one in the south.

This would allow for the provision of orbital routes much more easily, and more interaction with the Luas.

It could also be self-financing, given the value of some of DB's city centre land holdings now.

monument · 16-05-2017 9:16pm

cgcsb wrote: »

That'd be impossible, you'd need to maintain access to houses.

Simple solution: Bus and access only!

Enforced by electronic bollards at at least railway bridge. If needed, also have bollards at / near both ends with local access to houses via Cabra Drive for east of the railway and Glenbeigh Road for west of the railway.

monument · 16-05-2017 9:16pm

Boulevardier wrote: »

I am glad this thread was put up, because otherwise I would know almost nothing about it.

I cannot see any reference to it on the NTA website.

When (if at all) will the NTA be inviting public input?

Later this month or maybe next month.

Corca Baiscinn · 16-05-2017 9:27pm

monument wrote: »

Simple solution: Bus and access only!

Enforced by electronic bollards at at least railway bridge. If needed, also have bollards at / near both ends with local access to houses via Cabra Drive for east of the railway and Glenbeigh Road for west of the railway.

Is a system like that, ie bus and local traffic only, used in other places that you are aware of? Was going to say if so, that would bolster the case for trying it. Then I remembered that things that work elsewhere would never work in Ireland, our roads are too narrow for MPDL (Sean Canney),. Ditto, 30 kph zones, banning cars from city centre etc etc!

hmmm · 16-05-2017 11:32pm

Reading the consultancy's website, there's a lot of interesting ideas - some quite dramatic. If they are being paid to deliver, it could be very interesting. For example, instead of a bus that appears once an hour and goes on a meandering 2 hour trip into the city centre, have a much more frequent local bus that feeds people into a railway or LUAS station.

Unfortunately however the key decision seems to come down to coverage vs ridership, and I'm sure that coverage will be the choice by the politicians.

Stephen15 · 16-05-2017 11:59pm

hmmm wrote: »

Reading the consultancy's website, there's a lot of interesting ideas - some quite dramatic. If they are being paid to deliver, it could be very interesting. For example, instead of a bus that appears once an hour and goes on a meandering 2 hour trip into the city centre, have a much more frequent local bus that feeds people into a railway or LUAS station.

I can see pro's and con's to this model pro's being in some cases shorter journey times, increased frequency and a more efficient use of resources. However disadvantages I see are more waiting around, some journeys may take longer just some may be shorter, having to wait around late at night for a bus at a desserted luas or rail station with no chance of maybe getting a taxi.

Hopefully we've learned our lesson from those dart feeders we once had.

Dyr · 17-05-2017 12:01am

hmmm wrote: »

For example, instead of a bus that appears once an hour and goes on a meandering 2 hour trip into the city centre, have a much more frequent local bus that feeds people into a railway or LUAS station.

Dublin bus have made token efforts at that sort of local shuttle, usually to get over resistance to downgrading a service. They tend to get reduced quickly and then quietly shelved

murphaph · 17-05-2017 9:53am

Stephen15 wrote: »

I can see pro's and con's to this model pro's being in some cases shorter journey times, increased frequency and a more efficient use of resources. However disadvantages I see are more waiting around, some journeys may take longer just some may be shorter, having to wait around late at night for a bus at a desserted luas or rail station with no chance of maybe getting a taxi.

Hopefully we've learned our lesson from those dart feeders we once had.

The night busses here in Berlin all meet at the interchange points at roughly the same time, so there are always people about. It can be done. Traffic in Dublin isn't even an excuse at those times. These interchange points also attract taxis, hoping for a fare from an impatient punter.

bk · 17-05-2017 10:53am

hmmm wrote: »

Reading the consultancy's website, there's a lot of interesting ideas - some quite dramatic. If they are being paid to deliver, it could be very interesting. For example, instead of a bus that appears once an hour and goes on a meandering 2 hour trip into the city centre, have a much more frequent local bus that feeds people into a railway or LUAS station.

It is depressing that such an idea would be considered dramatic.

It really is very logical idea and it is well implemented in cities all over the world.

Local bus services feeding into high density and high frequency DARTs, Luas, Metro and BRT's.

Stephen15 wrote:

I can see pro's and con's to this model pro's being in some cases shorter journey times, increased frequency and a more efficient use of resources. However disadvantages I see are more waiting around, some journeys may take longer just some may be shorter, having to wait around late at night for a bus at a desserted luas or rail station with no chance of maybe getting a taxi.

Well first of all, you wouldn't need to be waiting around at night for a connecting service inbound as the idea is to be connecting with a high frequency service (max every 10 minutes).

Outbound, you shouldn't have to wait too long as the idea is that the local bus is also frequent, as it isn't running a long route and off peak roads should be quiet anyway.

Also if you have ever been to such transport hubs in other countries, then you would know that they usually have a big queue of waiting taxis hoping to pick up people who don't want to wait. They normally act as a taxi rank for the local area, if someone uses Uber at home, etc. the taxi will normally go from there.

Atlanta is a good example of this model. They have a service very similar to our DART. Each of their "DART" stations is a transport hub that includes:

- A bus station, which usually have about 4 or 5 local bus routes operating from it. They have proper bus parking bays and all.
- A big taxi rank
- A large car park for park and ride
- A large bike parking facility
- Often a coffee/sandwich/convenience shop

Also to note, that one ticket covers both the train journey and onward bus journey.

Stephen15 · 17-05-2017 2:43pm

Another benefit I see to a move to feeder buses is that it will free up our streets from buses. So less congestion which is welcome.

bk · 17-05-2017 2:49pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Another benefit I see to a move to feeder buses is that it will free up our streets from buses. So less congestion which is welcome.

Well you would still likely have lots of buses, just higher density BRT, tri-axle/tripple door double deckers and trams. At least until we get multiple underground lines (think decades).

antoinolachtnai · 17-05-2017 2:58pm

It is a great idea, but:

- Luas basically isn't suitable for feeder buses during peak times. The reason is that it just doesn't have the capacity. If you had a really strong, well organised system to get people to the luas at peak times, you would quickly overwhelm it. However, there is still an advantage in having feeders at off-peak times, because the shorter journey length means you can run the local feeder bus at a much higher frequency.

The DART is not brilliantly located for feeders. There are two problems - it runs along the coast and the stations are often hard to get at by road. It does not have that many 'strong' destinations. Still, it could be done a lot better than it is now. There is certainly immense capacity available on the DART and it could be a lot better utilised.

Could you have 'feeders' for a major bus line? As things are today, I don't really think it would be worthwhile. The route which would be fed would have to have a frequency and reliability at least as good as the DART and probably much more like the Luas to make it worthwhile for the customer for starters.

I am thinking of the 4 route here. There is a lot of density on this route, especially the northern part, and a lot of strong destinations, but somehow it only operates on a 15-minute schedule, with an hourly schedule on Sundays. I think the latent demand on this route is immense but if you can't operate it properly, you'll never get it to develop. And if you can't get the 4 to work, there is just no chance you are going to be able to get a feeder network to hang off it, or indeed to hang off a much weaker route.

For feeders to a bus route, you would need a different operating model with smaller buses that would be handy around estates. If you were going to stick with the current model (buy buses as big as possible to reduce fixed costs per passenger seat) you'd be better off with having the routes serving the estates 'peel off' from the main route, so that there would be frequency on the main route but the outer areas would be well covered.

Stephen15 · 17-05-2017 4:30pm

murphaph wrote: »

The night busses here in Berlin all meet at the interchange points at roughly the same time, so there are always people about. It can be done. Traffic in Dublin isn't even an excuse at those times. These interchange points also attract taxis, hoping for a fare from an impatient punter.

Yes but Berlin is quite different to any other city in europe including Dublin. It has three city centres one in the east, one in the west and a modern one that has been built since the wall came . So quite a lot of people will be making different journeys. Not everyone is going into the one city centre.

Boulevardier · 17-05-2017 5:20pm

We no longer have one city centre either. We have Dundrum, we have Tallaght, we have Citywest and we have the airport, to name just some.

Stephen15 · 17-05-2017 5:33pm

Boulevardier wrote: »

We no longer have one city centre either. We have Dundrum, we have Tallaght, we have Citywest and we have the airport, to name just some.

Yes but the majority are still going in the cc and not those place the majority of shops and offices are still in the cc. While those places are growing and more and more will flock there in years to come they won't take the place of the actual cc. Im not against orbital routes I was basically saying that comparing Dublin to Berlin is like comparing apples and oranges. I think Dublin is more comparable to London than Berlin.

n97 mini · 17-05-2017 9:04pm

The majority appear to be going into the centre because the transport routes go into the centre.

People won't use a bus to go local even where it suits as there is no 60c city centre fare in Tallaght, Dundrum etc.

I'd agree with the feeder idea. Dublin Bus by and large competes with Irish Rail rather than complimenting it. To develop integrated transport all modes have to be looked at as parts of a single solution, and planned and priced accordingly. The notion of rail being premium needs to be done away too. Standing for an hour on a cattle train in suburban Dublin is not the same as having a table to yourself on the Sligo train.

murphaph · 17-05-2017 9:18pm

The Luas could have significantly higher capacity. It's line of sight so you can have trams running immediately after one another. We just need to be prepared to give over road space and junction priority to it. Need to make bold decisions to maximise what we have in terms of infrastructure.

Stephen15 · 17-05-2017 9:22pm

n97 mini wrote: »

The majority appear to be going into the centre because the transport routes go into the centre.

People won't use a bus to go local even where it suits as there is no 60c city centre fare in Tallaght, Dundrum etc.

I'd agree with the feeder idea. Dublin Bus by and large competes with Irish Rail rather than complimenting it. To develop integrated transport all modes have to be looked at as parts of a single solution, and planned and priced accordingly. The notion of rail being premium needs to be done away too. Standing for an hour on a cattle train in suburban Dublin is not the same as having a table to yourself on the Sligo train.

How many of those would say people are going to change to another bus luas, dart or commuter train relatively few I would imagine. Most are going into town to work, shop or socialise. Do you want to keep people in the suburbs and kill off the cc?

People dont use public transport locally as the parking in most places in the suburbs is much handier, cheaper and more freely available than in the cc.

The leap card fare on a journey from Dun Laoghaire to Tara Street is €2.45 as opposed to €2.60 by bus so your theory about suburban rail being more expensive then the bus is false.

antoinolachtnai · 17-05-2017 9:34pm

murphaph wrote: »

The Luas could have significantly higher capacity. It's line of sight so you can have trams running immediately after one another. We just need to be prepared to give over road space and junction priority to it. Need to make bold decisions to maximise what we have in terms of infrastructure.

This is just not true. You cannot go much more than 20 trains per hour no matter how much you prioritise the Luas for the simple reason that one LUAS line crosses the other at grade. The whole thing will back up.

Well I just cannot see how it is true. Maybe there is a model somewhere but I would like to see it.

cgcsb · 17-05-2017 11:14pm

monument wrote: »

Simple solution: Bus and access only!

Enforced by electronic bollards at at least railway bridge. If needed, also have bollards at / near both ends with local access to houses via Cabra Drive for east of the railway and Glenbeigh Road for west of the railway.

Given that cars regularly sail through college green and turn right from O'Connell Bridge onto Eden quay and here are no plans to even bring in camera enforcement at this junction, somehow I think electronic bollards are just a few steps ahead of Irish traffic enforcement thinking..

n97 mini · 17-05-2017 11:26pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

How many of those would say people are going to change to another bus luas, dart or commuter train relatively few I would imagine. Most are going into town to work, shop or socialise. Do you want to keep people in the suburbs and kill off the cc?

People don't use public transport locally as the parking in most places in the suburbs is much handier, cheaper and more freely available than in the cc.

The leap card fare on a journey from Dun Laoghaire to Tara Street is ?2.45 as opposed to ?2.60 by bus so your theory about suburban rail being more expensive then the bus is false.

People don't change as it costs them money. They should be billed per journey, not every time they change mode. The 30 day Dublin Bus rambler is the perfect example: all the travel you want for around 4 euro per day but it's bus only. No equivalent multimode ticket for an equivalent price.

Under the current fare structure Dun Laoghaire to Tara probably shouldn't be cheaper by train than by bus, I would say that's an anomaly. Ideally both should cost the same. Maynooth to cc costs 3.56 by train or 2.60 by bus.

Stephen15 · 17-05-2017 11:40pm

n97 mini wrote: »

People don't change as it costs them money. They should be billed per journey, not every time they change mode. The 30 day Dublin Bus rambler is the perfect example: all the travel you want for around 4 euro per day but it's bus only. No equivalent multimode ticket for an equivalent price.

Under the current fare structure Dun Laoghaire to Tara probably shouldn't be cheaper by train than by bus, I would say that's an anomaly. Ideally both should cost the same. Maynooth to cc costs 3.56 by train or 2.60 by bus.

People dont change because its more convient to drive. I don't have a car it usually works well for me but there a while I had to go from Finglas to Cabinteely it took me about 90 mins getting a 40 and 145. Why get have a 90 minute by bus when you have a 30 minute journey by car on the m50. Now Im not bashing DB I thought 90 minutes was reasonable enough it wouldnt take you that much quicker driving not using the m50.

I would that has more to do with IE's fare structure than the theory of charging a premium for rail over bus. Maynooth is obivously in a different fare zone than Dun Laoghaire so thats why it costs as opposed to DBs system where there is a flat fare for over 13 stages.

n97 mini · 17-05-2017 11:54pm

I'm saying in general people won't change modes if it costs extra, which it does. They'll drive locally as the minimum fare on the bus is 1.50. They might bus it if it was 60c, but that's a separate point.

As I said DL is probably an anomaly. Rail is considered premium. I doubt you'd find too many rail journeys that are cheaper than the equivalent bus. Which leads back to my point that DB shouldn't be running competing routes.

BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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