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21-03-2018, 08:21   #91
BattleCorp
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I never get how people argue it's the Constitution it can't be changed. Considering at one point it was pro slavery. It was fine to change that but not this.
Not that it has anything to do with this conversation but there was a hell of a lot of resistance to getting rid of slavery. But slavery is completely wrong. Owning a gun isn't necessarily wrong. They aren't the same thing.

By the way, who here is arguing that the American Constitution can't be changed? I certainly am not arguing that.

But you have to adhere to the law as it is, not how you'd like it to be. If it's changed, so be it. Is there the will to remove the 2nd Amendment from the US Constitution right now, I don't think so.

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No, but you don't value life if you live in a country that has huge problems with gun violence and resist efforts to fix it. Gun ownership is currently a right, but in America this right is ending lives.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don't agree with that statement. Just because you own a gun and don't want to give it up, that doesn't mean that you don't value life.

I think you'll find that a lot of gun owners (myself included) are in favour of some sort of gun control. I'm not in favour of banning guns, I'm in favour of doing the utmost to make sure they don't fall into the wrong hands.

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But we are not talking about banning guns, we were talking about restricting them and registering them. And the right to have a gun is not absolute, there have always been restrictions; children, felons, etc. Of course if you are a felon you can always just buy one privately in some states without a background check
I'm actually in agreement with you here. I think guns should be restricted to those who are of sound mind, good character etc. I also believe there should be background checks etc.
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21-03-2018, 09:11   #92
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Not that it has anything to do with this conversation but there was a hell of a lot of resistance to getting rid of slavery. But slavery is completely wrong. Owning a gun isn't necessarily wrong. They aren't the same thing.

By the way, who here is arguing that the American Constitution can't be changed? I certainly am not arguing that.

But you have to adhere to the law as it is, not how you'd like it to be. If it's changed, so be it. Is there the will to remove the 2nd Amendment from the US Constitution right now, I don't think so.



^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don't agree with that statement. Just because you own a gun and don't want to give it up, that doesn't mean that you don't value life.

I think you'll find that a lot of gun owners (myself included) are in favour of some sort of gun control. I'm not in favour of banning guns, I'm in favour of doing the utmost to make sure they don't fall into the wrong hands.



I'm actually in agreement with you here. I think guns should be restricted to those who are of sound mind, good character etc. I also believe there should be background checks etc.
Indeed I think everyone means restricting guns even if they say banning. Most people consider guns to be banned in Ireland when in reality they are just rare and awkward to get.

The issue is that people are pointing out that in the states they value guns more than children's lives. Even after Florida the NRA is still set against age restrictions. This isn't about every single gun owner giving up their guns. People are more arguing against the gun culture and laws in the states (which you also seem to be against).

Yup at a certain point it will have to be removed as a right if people are serious but I see no reason for a complete ban on all guns ever (I am not sure if any country has that).
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21-03-2018, 09:19   #93
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Sweet Lord this thread is depressing reading. The constitutional rights argument is utter garbage.

It's the 2nd amendment. An amendment. See the "amend" in there. Of course the constitution can be changed. That's want an amendment is.......
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21-03-2018, 09:20   #94
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I do believe a large proportion of Americans have had enough of these gun tragedies, but unfortunately since democratic rule is in short supply due to the highly complex nature of their political system, which more or less resembles a some what dysfunctional form of plutocracy, they are stuck with these outcomes for the foreseeable future
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21-03-2018, 09:23   #95
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Sweet Lord this thread is depressing reading. The constitutional rights argument is utter garbage.

It's the 2nd amendment. An amendment. See the "amend" in there. Of course the constitution can be changed. That's want an amendment is.......
Yes, it can be changed.

But it's there. So it's law right now. We have to go with the laws right now.

If you want it removed, start a campaign, do whatever, but for the moment it is there and therefore it has to be obeyed.

If the Americans get rid of it, so be it. But even if it is gotten rid of, I think each State has its own Constitution so they'd have to be gotten rid of too.
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21-03-2018, 09:29   #96
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Sweet Lord this thread is depressing reading. The constitutional rights argument is utter garbage.

It's the 2nd amendment. An amendment. See the "amend" in there. Of course the constitution can be changed. That's want an amendment is.......
It's simple so, all you need to do is either get an amendment proposed by Congress, with a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate, or you can get a constitutional convention called by two-thirds of the State legislatures.
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21-03-2018, 09:47   #97
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But it's there. So it's law right now. We have to go with the laws right now.

If you want it removed, start a campaign, do whatever, but for the moment it is there and therefore it has to be obeyed.
Enlightening stuff.
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21-03-2018, 10:00   #98
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Enlightening stuff.
What do you suggest so?
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21-03-2018, 10:29   #99
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I’m confused.

There is The Constitution but also each state has it’s own constitution?
So if your states constitution says guns can only be purchased by people over 30 years old (just making that up), could you then ignore that and say the other Constitution says I can?
If the main Constitution said over 30s only can you refer to your states constitution saying that rule doesn’t apply here?
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21-03-2018, 10:42   #100
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https://youtu.be/E33Z0RPWuHs

Merica
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21-03-2018, 10:55   #101
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Originally Posted by Strawberry Milkshake View Post
I’m confused.

There is The Constitution but also each state has it’s own constitution?
So if your states constitution says guns can only be purchased by people over 30 years old (just making that up), could you then ignore that and say the other Constitution says I can?
If the main Constitution said over 30s only can you refer to your states constitution saying that rule doesn’t apply here?
I'm not sure as I'm not American nor do I live in America.

I'll wait for Manic Moran to answer that one.
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21-03-2018, 11:07   #102
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Originally Posted by Strawberry Milkshake View Post
I’m confused.

There is The Constitution but also each state has it’s own constitution?
So if your states constitution says guns can only be purchased by people over 30 years old (just making that up), could you then ignore that and say the other Constitution says I can?
If the main Constitution said over 30s only can you refer to your states constitution saying that rule doesn’t apply here?
Supremacy Clause. Article VI, Paragraph 2 of the U.S. Constitution is commonly referred to as the Supremacy Clause. It establishes that the federal constitution, and federal law generally, take precedence over state laws, and even state constitutions.
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21-03-2018, 13:52   #103
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Supremacy Clause. Article VI, Paragraph 2 of the U.S. Constitution is commonly referred to as the Supremacy Clause. It establishes that the federal constitution, and federal law generally, take precedence over state laws, and even state constitutions.
But if the 2nd Amendment was overturned, can individual States legislate to allow their citizens the right to bear arms?

Fair enough, you wouldn't have a right under the US Constitution to bear arms if the Second Amendment was overturned, but can you have that right bestowed by State Constitution?
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21-03-2018, 13:55   #104
 
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If I own a gun, does that mean I support school shootings?
No, but if you oppose making it harder to get guns in order to prevent these kind of situations then it does mean that you support school shootings more than you do gun control.
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21-03-2018, 13:57   #105
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But if the 2nd Amendment was overturned, can individual States legislate to allow their citizens the right to bear arms?

Fair enough, you wouldn't have a right under the US Constitution to bear arms if the Second Amendment was overturned, but can you have that right bestowed by State Constitution?
I don't know is the honest answer to that - I assume it would depend on what the second amendment was replaced with. In the absence of any mention of a right to bear arms in the constitution, I suppose it would be up to the state constitution or law.
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