Stalins Plans to Conquer Europe?

Mark · 20-04-2003 9:06pm #1

Give it a minute to Load

Document I found while randomly surfing on Kaz....www.madeup.com, it offers a fairly strong argument towards the title and is splatted with quotes.

Its centered around the theory that the USSR directly caused World War 2, with the intention of weakening the world before riding in the Liberator Horse and taking over TEH WOLRD!1!

Ahem

If nothing else, I found it a fairly good read and it gave some insights into the Soviet military machine.

True or Bollocks?

PHB · 20-04-2003 11:04pm

I'd say its a bit of selective history.

I remember reading a biography on Stalin and it was going on about how he was absolutly furious that Hitler betrayed him as he considered him an equal.

CCCP^ · 23-04-2003 11:47pm

I think, spurred on by Hitler's and Mussolini's conquest's throught Europe and Africa(Rhineland, Austria, Sudetenland and Czechoslovakia, Poland, Ethopia, Albania)Stalin sought to further his empire in that ancient intent of the Russians, the Balkans.

You should also realise, that with the world going the way it was, it was most prudent to start preparing for conflict. The "Winter War" had convinced the Russians that her Army was simply not ready for war, and a vast rehaul went underway in 1939.

I dont think either, that before World War 2, Stalin sought to take over Europe, but maybe in the turmoil he forsee, aleast take as much as he could get his hands on. Also, that the only way that Stalin could maintain power was with a large army to do his bidding, or so he thought. Certainly you cant believe that Russian intended for war with lousy planners and thats solely why the lost so bad at the beginning.

If Stalin really sought before World War 2 to take Europe, surely then he would have realised that this meant takening on Germany and possibly France and Britain. Surely the Russians would have envisaged such a possibility, and atleast mentally prepare for war with Germany. Her initial reactions during the opening days of war with Germany were fright, panic and a niave hope that somehow the war could be stopped.

Let me point out also, that Russians thought of Transportation as a disadvantage during war time. Napolean and Ludendorff had used the Russian transportation system to reach deep into the nation. Imagine a Soviet Unionthat had a amazing motorway and Rail system in 1941. The Germans would have probably sped twice as fast and as deep into Russia has she did in reality.

Im stopping now, because this is just gone too far right now.

02-05-2003 5:35pm

Stalin had no intentions of ever expanding the USSR

richindub2 · 02-05-2003 5:49pm

Originally posted by CCCP^

If Stalin really sought before World War 2 to take Europe, surely then he would have realised that this meant takening on Germany and possibly France and Britain. Surely the Russians would have envisaged such a possibility, and atleast mentally prepare for war with Germany. Her initial reactions during the opening days of war with Germany were fright, panic and a niave hope that somehow the war could be stopped.

The treaty with Germany from the Russian point of view was mainly to stop an anti communist crusade from a coalition of the Western powers, I imagine. Stalin already knew how icily the West felt about communist Russia from their attempts at intervention in the civil war.

In my view Stalin was planning to try and increase power/influence in Europe through civil wars / revolution (ie Spain) while expanding Russia's empire militarily in the East. The last of the 4 year plans did focus on the military - he obviously thought he'd need an army for something.

PHB · 03-05-2003 1:36pm

After Hitler having a little fun in austria everyone was preparing for war.

Was it Stalin or Lenins "Communism in one country"

richindub2 · 03-05-2003 1:46pm

The original bolshevik theory was that revolutions in other countries would be needed to support the one in Russia. Stalin only introduced the 'socialism in one country' idea (around 24/25 I think, after Lenins fall from power at any rate) because he felt they needed to concentrate on domestic affairs.

Orlando Figes' book on the causes of the revolution / the revolution / the civil war is quite good, you should read it once youre finished your LC dave

Éomer of Rohan · 03-05-2003 10:10pm

Stalin only introduced the 'socialism in one country' idea (around 24/25 I think, after Lenins fall from power at any rate)

Or possibly Lenin's death? lol. The idea about paralled Socialist Revolutions was a Trotskyist one - and was discredited by Stalin because Stalin feared Trotsky and for no other reason - hence the set up of Comintern just as Trotsky had envisioned.

After Hitler having a little fun in austria everyone was preparing for war

Everyone except the Soviets - remember 1938 anyone? Just as Hitler during the war removed from power some Generals in order to consolidate his own, Stalin willingly compromised the operational executive of the Red Army - by starting a witchhunt for those who professed the creed of 'deep operations' - ie Blitzkrieg - the idea which the Russians came up with before Guderian's Panzers. He was not in reality opposed to such an idea, it was simply convenient since prominent and popular Generals such as Rokossovsky liked the idea and therefore by going after the idea, he exposed a weakness in the Generals he was after - after all it was Rokossovsky in Operation Uranus that saved the Russians. Anyway, as I was saying, Russia was far from preparing for war apart from run of the mill military research.

In my view Stalin was planning to try and increase power/influence in Europe through civil wars / revolution (ie Spain) while expanding Russia's empire militarily in the East. The last of the 4 year plans did focus on the military - he obviously thought he'd need an army for something.

Read Antony Beevor's account of the Spanish Civil war - the Russians were there simply as military advisers. Also, given the sudden rise of Japan and the defeat in the 1904 war which was utterly disastrous for Russia as a nation (and given the similarity of situation between the Czar then and Stalin now) and Stalin must have been paranoid that a repeat of such a defeat might result in the concurrent revolt such as in 1905.

richindub2 · 03-05-2003 11:16pm

"Or possibly Lenin's death? lol." - He had lost all political power six months(if not more) before his death. Once Stalin controlled whatever the party got to hear from Lenin he was effectively useless.

Read Beevor's book on the civil war. Large enough amounts of tanks / fighters / advisers would constitute a significant contribution to the Spanish Republican side to me. The Communists in the Republican government also used this aid to gain more power - tieing in with my above theory. I believe Beevor also said that if it wasnt for the Russian aid the Republic would have been defeated a year earlier? (cant remember exactly, read it a while ago)

Éomer of Rohan · 03-05-2003 11:32pm

Once Stalin controlled whatever the party got to hear from Lenin he was effectively useless

There are various accounts of how Lenin's wife smuggled material from Lenin to the Supreme Praesidium so it would seem that Stalin did not control all of what Lenin did - mind you he did control the important bit where Lenin said that the Soviets must avoid Stalin at all costs lol.

Read Beevor's book on the civil war. Large enough amounts of tanks / fighters / advisers would constitute a significant contribution to the Spanish Republican side to me. The Communists in the Republican government also used this aid to gain more power - tieing in with my above theory. I believe Beevor also said that if it wasnt for the Russian aid the Republic would have been defeated a year earlier? (cant remember exactly, read it a while ago)

Have you read Vassily Grossman's account of the Spanish Civil War? Yeah the Russian supplied weapons and so on but these were under the command of the Republicans - the Generals who attended were there for advisory purposes. And another thing, although the communists in the Republican movement may have used this to gain power, they were not Russian communists - they were just allies of convenience - Orwell himself that before the Republicans needed Russian help, they were a much more effective left wing movement (if somewhat bloodthirsty when it came to clashes between the communists and the anarcho-syndicalists). The Russians of course were willing to provide such help from an ideological point of view rather than from the point of view of 'we want control of this country' which they would never have got even if Franco and the Army of Africa had been smashed. Spain would have become a Democracy more than likely.

josh40 · 16-05-2003 10:16pm

Of course, Spain also had to pay for any resources received from the Soviet Union!

Stalin wanted "socialism" in one country because he needed to industrialize Russia in order to make it a superpower.When Russia and Germany signed the Nazi- Soviet Pact, they were only playing for time. Hitler's search for living space in the East , obviously meant Russia.Russia was not ready to fight, mostly because Stalin had purged most of the "officers" in the army. Not really the action of someone intending to provoke a war.He was also rearming Russia but that was probably because he realized what Hitler was up to.

He did try to court both Britain and France but they were too terrified by communism to be interested.

Hard to know what his long term plans were , if indeed he had any.

Éomer of Rohan · 16-05-2003 11:04pm

I don't blame him for rearming! He had the mass of Chinese along 5000 miles of shared border and a resurgent threat from Japan which itself was now industrialised, even forgetting about Hitler. But this was not an indication of wider ambitions; consider the Russian isolationism w.r.t. Weimar Germany which was weak as opposed to the forced deal with Nazi Germany which was strong.

Stalins Plans to Conquer Europe?

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