Critical Mass Bike Protest!

thiscityburns · 08-04-2005 7:15pm #1

Leaving mon 2nd may 1pm from the Garden of Remembrance, Parnell Sq.
and meeting up with the Reclaim the Streets on the way..
http://www.critical-mass.org/

www.dissenteire.tk

Johnny Jukebox · 11-04-2005 12:44pm

What is the protest about ?

uberwolf · 11-04-2005 12:46pm

I doubt you'll receive a response - I only left it there because it was vaguely on topic, even though the OP spammed (several forums) and left.

thiscityburns · 11-04-2005 1:34pm

critical mass is essentially a collection of cyclists taking back the city streets for an evening, cycling as a block throughout the city to highlight the need for bike facilities in the city and to show that bikes are a much cleaner/safer mode of transport than cars.

Johnny Jukebox · 11-04-2005 2:21pm

Hmm. I feel your pain and broadly empathise with your observations but frankly see this action as a complete waste of time. Private motoring is slowly being pushed out of the city through draconian legislation and replaced with public transport.

Cycling will never be more than a niche in this country because of the miserable weather and the fitness levels required.

I'd suggest that you could supply as many facilities as you liked and the number of commuting cyclists would hardly change.

stanbowles · 14-04-2005 1:53pm

Rather depressing reflections from Johny Jukebox ...

I used to cycle or walk to work until I got a job in Dublin area 8/9 miles from where I live ... cue car commute. That was six years ago. Decided last autumn that I would buy a decent bike (Viking 701, recommended) and do the journey when possible by bike. Since then I probably manage 2 out of 5 working days to do the bike thing ... hopefully will up the % this summer.

Generally feeling much fitter etc and think this is a v.good thing for me personally. Also have the impression from colleagues / friends that many of them have made / are about to make a similar decision to mix car and bike use for commuting where possible.

Re bike protests, bring em on. Hv never got involved before but hv made a point of joining up for the one publicised on this thread.

Cycle tracks are not properly maintained, the volume of cars on the Dublin streets is plainly unsustainable and over 100,000 new cars registered in the city every year. More effort does need to be made to encourage the city authorities, schools, employers to encourage bike use (shower facilities at work, secure camera-protected cycle parks in the city centre, proper cyclelanes and not the glass strewn drive way rodeo that much of the current network is...).

The dominion of cars on the city's streets has become so extensive / intensive that parents will not let their kids cycle to school ... without action and a more vocal lobby, Dublin will be lost to future generations of cyclists.

Stan

Obscure · 14-04-2005 3:59pm

thiscityburns wrote:

critical mass is essentially a collection of cyclists taking back the city streets for an evening, cycling as a block throughout the city to highlight the need for bike facilities in the city and to show that bikes are a much cleaner/safer mode of transport than cars.

From the poster and website it seems that the whole reclaim the streets is about protesting about the G8 and the usual anti-capitalism crap!

Why is the critical mass protest meeting up with a protest about the G8? I dont see the link. Could it be that they hope to inflate the numbers "protesting" the g8 using an issue that ppl here care about (ie: the lack of proper cycling facilities in Dublin).

thiscityburns · 14-04-2005 6:52pm

critical mass has always been a part of Reclaim The Streets and reclaim the streets has always been against capitalism..

*yawn*

Johnny Jukebox · 15-04-2005 8:27am

stanbowles wrote:

Rather depressing reflections from Johny Jukebox ...

Stan

Yeah, I guess. I'm as fanatical as anyone about cycling but you have to be realistic. I read some stats recently that show a decline in cycling commuters since 2000, despite all the cycle lanes that have gone in since then. I think you have to recognise that cycling in Dublin, in the Irish climate is always going to be a niche activity and set your expectations re. publically funded facilities accordingly.

Obscure · 15-04-2005 9:14am

http://www.dissenteire.tk/ wrote:

Dissent Ireland is a local working group of the DISSENT NETWORK. Dissent Ireland is a network of activists who have come together to organise against the G8 Summit to be held in Scotland in July of 2005. The group is open to anyone who is willing to work within the hallmarks of Peoples Global Action;

1. A very clear rejection of capitalism, imperialism and feudalism; all trade agreements, institutions and governments that promote destructive globalisation.
2. We reject all forms and systems of domination and discrimination including, but not limited to, patriarchy, racism and religious fundamentalism of all creeds. We embrace the full dignity of all human beings.

....

****YAWN****

Raam · 15-04-2005 10:15am

thiscityburns wrote:

critical mass has always been a part of Reclaim The Streets and reclaim the streets has always been against capitalism..

*yawn*

how come a cycling demonstration is anti-capitalist? What is the march hoping to achieve? Better cycling facilities or a change of government?

My Sharona · 15-04-2005 2:50pm

Johnny Jukebox wrote:

Cycling will never be more than a niche in this country because of the miserable weather and the fitness levels required.

I don't find weather a huge issue once you have the proper rain gear and lights. As for fitness levels, anyone of any age can cycle. All you have to do is to start off at a comfortable level and build from there. I think one of the main reasons less people cycle is because of misconceptions out there that it is too difficult/expensive/time-consuming. I believe that once you begin, you find out that cycling in Dublin really isn't that bad, although it does have its low points.

daymobrew · 15-04-2005 10:30pm

Johnny Jukebox wrote:

I read some stats recently that show a decline in cycling commuters since 2000, despite all the cycle lanes

All the more space for those of remaining.

stanbowles wrote:

proper cyclelanes and not the glass strewn drive way rodeo that much of the current network is...

I have found Dublin City Council to be quite responsive to cleaning up glass - just ring them (672-2222) and ask for the 'Cleansing' department.
I have also gotten them to fix potholes, just by asking nicely.
Fingal County Council aren't so good.

Johnny Jukebox · 16-04-2005 9:39pm

My Sharona wrote:

I don't find weather a huge issue once you have the proper rain gear and lights. As for fitness levels, anyone of any age can cycle. All you have to do is to start off at a comfortable level and build from there. .

And a hot shower and dressing/drying facilities at your destination. How many people have those ? You've got to spend the day after your inbound commute and if you work with people, or meet and greet or just want to feel good, you need a shower and a complete change of clothing.

Yes, but how many people have a comfort level ? As a nation, we are becoming more obese and so the barrier to entry gets higher. There's also a big snob factor as well - I think many people see cycling as a little eccentric or for the Greens or whatever.

And thiscityburns - if the revolution delivers me an 05 Epic S-Works, sign me up dude.

pickarooney · 16-04-2005 9:52pm

Holland has a very similar climate to Ireland and everybody cycles, from young schoolchildren to 50-year old businessmen in suits. The only genuine excuses for so few people cycling in Dublin are the lack of lanes, laziness and snobbery.

roadmanmad · 16-04-2005 10:35pm

We all strong feelings about cycling.

A mass grouping is effective when it communicates to all other road users that cyclists are here to stay.

A 'Good Cyclist Jersey' idea was once suggested to me. Maybe it is time to reconsider it.

Cyclists need to command respect. This also means good road behaviour from us. It does mean that you give the others no reason to critisise our visibility or behaviour on the road. Believe me, too many take shortcuts that make other users disrespect us.

Cycling is not for the faint heated. A driver nearly took me away last Thurday as he past me, he braked severly and attempted to turn into my path and I was wearing a high vis jacket and he had to make a positive effort to pass me as I was doing nearly 20mph at the time. He nearly caused a traffic accident with other cars. He was wrong and all the other drivers could see it but, they could not critise me with my visibility or position on the road.

Remember most people with cars forget the rules of the road that do not apply to them. Only one rule applies have car, ***k evryone else.

March Yes.
Retake the roads Yes

Give them an excuse No

Civilian_Target · 17-04-2005 12:52am

My Sharona wrote:

I think one of the main reasons less people cycle is because of misconceptions out there that it is too difficult/expensive/time-consuming.

They're not misconceptions. It's time consuming - it takes 5 mins to get out and put away your bike, and you only go at about 3 times walking pace. A cross town journey will leave you covered in sweat and take a good hour. It is also more expensive than public transport. And its difficult, you have to be not only alert at all times, but you have to ****ing pedal too.

I'm a cyclist and love it. Its a forced way of taking exercise, it keeps you alert and active and its a great way to get away from the mundane. But lets face it, as a way of getting about, cars beat the crap out of it. I wouldn't cycle to work if I there wasn't a warm shower, bike rack and change of clothes waiting for me at the other end. Fortunately there is

Civilian_Target · 17-04-2005 12:54am

Oh, and daymobrew - thanks for the tip on the Corporation. It should be stickied.

daymobrew · 17-04-2005 2:10am

Civilian_Target wrote:

I'm a cyclist and love it. Its a forced way of taking exercise, it keeps you alert and active and its a great way to get away from the mundane. But lets face it, as a way of getting about, cars beat the crap out of it. I wouldn't cycle to work if I there wasn't a warm shower, bike rack and change of clothes waiting for me at the other end. Fortunately there is

I love it too.
Before I joined my current company the availabilty of a shower was one of my questions to HR (it has an electric shower). Being bike-friendly is a factor for me.

I love the post-shower satisfaction of knowing that I have already gotten more than the recommended daily quota of exercise. I admit there is a bit of smugness too

(I'm not directly contributing to pollution, I am not contributing to road traffic and I'm healthy so not a burden on the health system).

pickarooney · 20-04-2005 9:19am

How is cycling more expensive than public transport?

How long is a cross-town (assuming you mean Dublin) journey in a car at rush hour?

jman0 · 20-04-2005 9:43am

I doubt cycling is more expensive.
I've talked more than one person at work into cycle-commuting instead of taking the bus.
Simply consider what you (or they) spend on bus fare to and from work every week. Multiply by 4 weeks per the month, then 12 months for the year and you'll easily see 700-1000€ being spent annually.
That money could buy a nice bike, and providing it doesn't get nicked at the end of the year you'll be fitter, own a nice bike which could be sold or traded, and invariably have reduced your commuting time in the morning and evening because the bus gets stuck in traffic.
I also find riding the bus entails a little personal degradation or humiliation. The bus drivers are generally blunt and unhappy, or even a bit irritable, you have to share your "personal space" with other travelers as you get packed-in. It can be awkward getting on/off the bus as it lurches around the place coming to quick stops; and having to push thru other people to make your exit. You have to tolerate other people's idiosyncrasies in close quarter.

Buying a car is expensive, not just the price of the motor but insurance and tax; not to mention the price of petrol and maintenence.
Some of my neighbors own cars, i don't know how far they travel to work but i'll bet for some, it's not more than 5 miles. I think that's so pathetic, lazy and wasteful.

Gavin · 22-04-2005 12:35pm

Civilian_Target wrote:

They're not misconceptions. It's time consuming - it takes 5 mins to get out and put away your bike,

True. Locking a bike properly takes a bit of time as well.

and you only go at about 3 times walking pace. A cross town journey will

Bollix. I cycle a lot faster than that on a decent stretch and even going through the city center will achieve higher speeds

leave you covered in sweat and take a good hour.

True about the sweat. True about the hour. Takes me 40 minutes to get from Dundrum to DCU. Takes me 50 on the bus & luas , optimal time, maybe around an hour and a half during rush hour. What's more, on the bicycle, when I leave at 9, I know I'll get in at 9:40.. no such luck with a luas/bus combo.

It is also more expensive than public transport.

Total pants. My bicycle and accessories cost me around 700 euro. That's a very good second hand bicycle, which is a bit more excessive than I needed. Luas costs me 3 euro a day. Bus on costs me 1.35*2 a day. The luas alone comes to 15 euro a week by 52 = 720 a year. Add the bus, 702 euro onto that and it comes to 1422 euro a year. Let's say I include holidays and so on, and that comes down to 1000 maybe. Right off, I'm saving money. That's even if I decide to buy a new bicycle every year... Which I won't be doing. Maintenance for the bike might be 200 a year ??

And its difficult, you have to be not only alert at all times, but you have to ****ing pedal too.

This is not very hard, you need to be alert as a driver too and pedalling simply becomes second nature. You do need to be more alert than a car driver yes, but I quite enjoy that aspect.

I'm a cyclist and love it. Its a forced way of taking exercise, it keeps you alert and active and its a great way to get away from the mundane.

Cool ! I totally agree !

But lets face it, as a way of getting about, cars beat the crap out of it. I wouldn't cycle to work if I there wasn't a warm shower, bike rack and change of clothes waiting for me at the other end. Fortunately there is

Yeah you do need a shower, but most places do seem to have the facilities.. and in my opinion, for around a 10 mile commute, a bicycle kicks the arse off a car, especially through the city center !

Gav

uberwolf · 22-04-2005 12:41pm

Verb wrote:

Yeah you do need a shower, but most places do seem to have the facilities.. and in my opinion, for around a 10 mile commute, a bicycle kicks the arse off a car, especially through the city center !

Gav

on the first day of first year (long time ago now) I bussed it in from Leixlip to belfield. 1hr 30 mins and late for my lecture. 2 nd day I cycled in 50 mins comfortable. Shower change still saved me 20 mins - plus you'd have to shower regardless just the end of the journey you do it on changes!

Did that for the rest of the year. SOme days you don't want to do it, others its great.

Civilian_Target · 23-04-2005 2:13pm

OK. OK.

pickarooney How is cycling more expensive than public transport?
How long is a cross-town (assuming you mean Dublin) journey in a car at rush hour?

Simple - cycling is more expensive than public transport, for me anyway.

If you were commuting by bus every day, you'd buy a Dublin Bus or Bus-Luas card which are €65 and €85 respectively.

On your bike, cycling 30 miles a week will cost you about €25 a month in maintainance (ie. lubriacant, replacement pumps, clothing and gear, servicing fees, replacement parts, lamp batteries etc) and theres about a 50/50 chance of getting a puncture, so you have to at least spend €2.50 on an inner tube every month, plus the possible cost of having to ditch your bike, taking only your wheel (rare, but it happens).

Plus you have to factor in the cost of actually buying the bike, and making it comfortable, thats minimum €10 a month for most people.

And then theres the fact that you're still going to end up paying for bus journeys you'd otherwise have got for free if you had a bus card. If you go into town shopping, go for a night out, or need to carry something heavy, you don't take your bike, you get the bus. You end up spending €20 a month on the bus, minimum anyway!

Bus ticket: €65 Bike: €25+€10+€2.50+€20 = €57.50 minimum

Practially, I would say that I spend more like €80 a month by cycling, over €65 for the bus. But if you took the price of, say, going into a gym into it, suddenly cycling's a lot cheaper.

At rush hour, a cross-town journey is probably about 90mins in a car. (by cross-town, I really mean east-> west, eg. Clontarf -> Blanchardstown)
In the evenings though - when you're most likely to do a cross-town journey anyway, its more like 20 mins, twice as fast as cycling.

Verb: Bollix. I cycle a lot faster than that on a decent stretch and even going through the city center will achieve higher speeds

I doubt it. Long stretches (eg. Phoenix park) being the exception, its hard to get quicker than 18mph on your bike in town, and 12 is the absolute max when you're in town or have to deal with traffic (eg. somewhere like Ranelagh), because of lights. Most well exercised people walk at 4-5mph, thats a pretty brisk walking pace. So in-town cycling is only about 3 times faster, although obviously, there are exceptions.

Don't get me wrong guys, I'm a cyclist and I love it, but its tough love that tries to run me over on a regular basis (would you believe I almost got killed by a road-cone transportation lorry yesterday?!). Its not all great, its got its downsides, but over all its definitely worth it, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Theres something really nice out of getting out of your dreary, air-conditioned office and blasting down the road home, full pelt! And the savings over driving a car are huge.

Enduro · 25-04-2005 1:45pm

Jeeze, Thats a fairly expensive maintanance routine you have there. I'd say I keep my commuter bike running for about 70 Euros a year maximum.

I spend about 5 Euro a year on Lubricant (for 2 bikes, of which my mountain bike uses the lions share).
About a tenner on clothing (replacement waterproof leggings every year).
Nothing on serviceing fees (Its very easy to learn).
5 Euro on Batteries.
Most expense would be replacing the drivetrain when it wears out, so that would be chain, cassette and chainring once a year, generally.
I rarely get punctures. In 3 years of consistant cycle commuting I have got about 3 of them. Just use good tyres and pump them up very hard.

On an average month I would spend absolutely nothing on my commuter bike!

And as for the speed... I can get up to full speep within about 30 metres, so even in streets with lots of junctions I would still spend most of my time doing up to 20mph, including Ranelagh.

Supercell · 25-04-2005 8:45pm

Cycling is hard on the knees, used to cycle everywhere ..yes i was very fit..but my knees really suffered.
Now I ride a mbike as a result and am not fit but am trying other exercises in the gym that are less tough on the knees.
Being a mbiker am probably more aware of cyclists needs on the road than car drivers, but don't think its for everyone.
Someone mentioned Holland as having a similar conditions..well thats not true..Dublin is far more hilly and esp windy..as someone who cycled many years..wind is a total PITA to the cylist..I think that why my knees are wrecked..its the many many days pushing with all my might into the wind to do about 2mph forward motion, ..i was a "HARD" cyclist, probably would still be if my knees were not fubar...
Cycling isnt necessarily the be-all and end all, maybe if dublin was flatter and less windy..neither is going to happen

Explosive_Cornflake · 26-04-2005 7:45pm

Ah, come on, dublin is not that hilly.
There only small hills, hit them fast enough and you'll carry yourself up them.
Cycling is a lot nicer to your joints than walking or running.
Anyway, i'm off to cycle home now.

Civilian_Target · 27-04-2005 8:34pm

Dublin's not hilly. Belfast is hilly.

Yep, I have a fairly expensive maintainance routine, I check my own bike every 6 weeks and then get it taken to a shop every 1000 miles to be serviced. Its substantially more expensive because its a mountain bike. A commuter bike is more initial outlay, far nicer to cycle and cheaper to run - so I'll have to buy one....

Seriously though, you still must spend more than €70 a year on your bike...

Gavin · 28-04-2005 11:46pm

Explosive_Cornflake wrote:

Ah, come on, dublin is not that hilly.
There only small hills, hit them fast enough and you'll carry yourself up them.
Cycling is a lot nicer to your joints than walking or running.
Anyway, i'm off to cycle home now.

You don't cycle on the northside, do you ? Must get a gps recording of the elevation of my route.

Gav

Enduro · 29-04-2005 9:36am

You don't cycle on the northside, do you ?

I live in DNS and commute to Dublin 2, so I cycle through the Northside daily. Its flat as a pancake. The only hill worth even mentioning on the whole of the northside is Howth. Dublin overall is flat as a pancake, relatively speaking. I'd prefer if it wasn't, 'cause then I might get better training done on my commute!

Seriously though, you still must spend more than €70 a year on your bike...

I really don't think so. As I say, most months I spend nothing whatsover on it. Every now and again a component will wear out and need replacing, and thats about it for the most part.
I use a mountainbike for commuting. Its a 5 year old Specialized Rockhopper. It was my first mountainbike. I now have a much better bike I use for actual mountian biking, and have retired the rockhopper to commuting duties (The only alterations were to put slicks on, and put flat pedals back on). Over the years I've taught myself how to maintain the bike, so I never need to go to a bike shop to get it serviced, and I can keep it running in good condition all the time. I also pick up replacement components on the internet and fit them myself. Its very easy to do 99% of bike maintanance yourself. Well worth learning, and saves a good bit of money over time.

TBH, I don't see why a commuter bike would be cheaper to run. Why do you reckon that would be?

Explosive_Cornflake · 29-04-2005 1:30pm

Verb wrote:

You don't cycle on the northside, do you ? Must get a gps recording of the elevation of my route.

Gav

I'm living over northside, so it would be hard for me not too. It's a lot hiller where i live at home, so hills in dublin mean feck all to me.

Critical Mass Bike Protest!

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