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"Irish Grass Fed Beef" to be protected by EU

24

Comments

  • #32
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,927 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    Castlekeeper wrote: »
    I don't know anything about butchering but I thought the main difference within the EUROP grades was yield per hook and then the size of certain cuts but not taste quality per se?

    This PGI sounds like a typical generic Irish sham effort, trying to replicate Kerrygold I supoose, the one good idea that they pulled off in 100 tears.

    Ye europ is nothing to do with meat quality but meat yield per kg of carcasse


  • #33
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,927 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    Water John wrote: »
    Even if it only takes a minority of the beef supply, and that's what it should be to give it exclusivity, it's a good thing. We have 28 matured Angus and Hereford already. Marks it out for a premium.
    The 'Grass Fed' element should be kept, very high. If that makes it more of a seasonal product, so be it. Lots of food have that element. Don't think any P grade ends up in the retail trade.

    What's being talked about is 90% of the animals diet being grass on a freshweight basis over the animals lifetime.
    Almost all animals could meet that spec but what happens if the consumer ever realises that basing it on freshweight means lots of meal can still be fed


  • #34
    Gawddawggonnit
    Registered Users Posts: 3,240 ✭✭✭Gawddawggonnit


    yosemitesam1 wrote: »
    What's being talked about is 90% of the animals diet being grass on a freshweight basis over the animals lifetime.
    Almost all animals could meet that spec but what happens if the consumer ever realises that basing it on freshweight means lots of meal can still be fed

    If you’re going to scrutinize ‘grass fed’ then of course almost no Irish beef would qualify. Likewise with dairy produce.
    What happens when the consumer réalisés that Irish dairy, and indeed beef, is being fed gmo feeds from half way around the world? It’s inevitable that the consumer will cop on to this at some stage...on the flip side, most beef from the dairy herd across Europe ends up being reared indoors for veal or beef. The vast majority of dedicated beef producers in the Eu would be running purebred beef breeds that are reared on grass until about 1yr old, then they’re intensively fed grains to finish on indoor systems. Surely top quality Irish beef has an edge here?

    The main thing is not to abuse it, ie, make absolutely sure that the beef in the scheme is the very best that is being produced in the country. After the ‘Irish Angus’ scandal the quality will have to be irreproachable because there’ll be plenty sceptical consumers.


  • #35
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Actually , doesn't bord bia wants to market Irish beef in general as grass fed ??
    They kind of do it already but the increase amount of feed lots threatens that , but the more exclusive you make the club , the less it's going to count , and the less use it is from a general marketing point of view.
    Should it be a general "label" (and a legal term) that goes with the animal,included in the current quality assurance scheme ,and excludes feed lots and farms engaged in add lib meal feeding ....
    Keep the scheme simple ,and basic ,



    A bit surprised at the push on continental sires for grass fed systems , (it's doable ), but surely it's easier to finish traditional types off grass ?
    The feed lots prefer continental types for sure ...

    I'd agree with dawg on the gm front too, but I don't think Irish farmer give a ****e , which is a shame because no Irish grown cereal is gm, and gm free feed would be a big marketing plus , ( gm free soya is available and once it's coming in in bulk it's not much difference in price )

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #36
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,927 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

    The main thing is not to abuse it, ie, make absolutely sure that the beef in the scheme is the very best that is being produced in the country. After the ‘Irish Angus’ scandal the quality will have to be irreproachable because there’ll be plenty sceptical consumers.

    The thing is if an animal eats about 1,000-1,200kg dm in its first year and about 2,500kg DM in its second.
    There's still room for that animal to have gotten about 1,200kgs of meal in its lifetime.
    Should that qualify as grass fed? It's worse than dairyx Angus being sold as Angus in my view


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  • #37
    Mooooo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    Does the market actually want it and are they willing to pay for it. South American beef, and other exports from there are so cheap now due to currency devaluations in Brazil and Argentina that there is no way Irish or any European beef can compete on price if it is let in in any quantity.
    Efforts would be better spent on getting Europe to ban any imports which do not match European standards to a tee, beef, tillage dairy etc. But that won't happen as those walking around Brussels are some of the biggest hypocritical fcukers going. As I said before NIMBYism on a grand scale....


  • #38
    K.G.
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,026 Mod ✭✭✭✭K.G.


    Castlekeeper wrote: »
    On average Herefords have poorer confirmation, longer gestation, and harder calving, than some continental's but of course you can still get good strains but you'd pay well for them.

    and some continentals are brutes to calve and can 2 weeks plus with male calves.have to say the herefords are no problem to calve here and can move the calves easy enough


  • #39
    Jjameson
    Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson


    I see this as the green shoots of a positive future. We are relative minnows in terms of beef production in the world but we are on the doorstep of the best marketplace in Europe and we have the right product. Marketing and perception is everything in retail if you want a premium price.

    This doesn’t actually sit well with processors /government policy at all, high volume/output stack it high sell it cheap.
    Teagasc and the IFA both gave it a Luke warm response too. Neither seem to grasp the concept of a better price for an extensively produced product combined with environmental/bio diversity related payments equals a better chance of a few remaining in the coffers of rural Ireland and not in the offshore accounts of beef barons.

    I don’t concur calls for exclusivity of suckler beef labelling or 100 per cent grass fed as the end product is not discernible from minimum grain predominantly grass fed or dairy cross beef and I’m not keen to open a debacle I made the mistake of pointing out on this forum before! but I’m of the option that there are firm advantages to docile and thriving cattle regardless of conformation(which is purely primal cut percentage measurement not beef quality)
    https://www.mla.com.au/globalassets/mla-corporate/effect-of-ph-on-beef-eating-quality_sep11.pdf


  • #40
    Welding Rod
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭Welding Rod


    There’s hardly a suckler farm in the country without a creep feeder in the field with the calves. Farmer making tracks to it with the loader bucket filled with bags of nuts. Some of the calves live in it.
    Then they are weaned and wintered in the shed, with liberal meal fed. Blast of grass year two. Final months before 30 month slaughter is another blast of nuts.
    They get a bit of grass as well!!!’

    That’s another view of the real world situation .....


  • #41
    Hard Knocks
    Registered Users Posts: 3,918 ✭✭✭Hard Knocks


    Welding Rod wrote: »
    There’s hardly a suckler farm in the country without a creep feeder in the field with the calves. Farmer making tracks to it with the loader bucket filled with bags of nuts. Some of the calves live in it.
    Then they are weaned and wintered in the shed, with liberal meal fed. Blast of grass year two. Final months before 30 month slaughter is another blast of nuts.
    They get a bit of grass as well!!!’

    That’s another view of the real world situation .....

    Allot of good suckler calves are exported and won’t be counted
    If conditions are like that, it would be best to get silage in the shed, that’s not good for land or beast
    Suckler farmers around here are creep feeding less as cost of meal is too high & returns are reduced
    Feeding as-lib meal to young calves is a waste of money


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  • #42
    maestroamado
    Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    Welding Rod wrote: »
    There’s hardly a suckler farm in the country without a creep feeder in the field with the calves. Farmer making tracks to it with the loader bucket filled with bags of nuts. Some of the calves live in it.
    Then they are weaned and wintered in the shed, with liberal meal fed. Blast of grass year two. Final months before 30 month slaughter is another blast of nuts.
    They get a bit of grass as well!!!’

    That’s another view of the real world situation .....


    Does grass fed not mean 100% grass and silage/hay in winter?
    The rules for food labeling very strict i EU.
    I expect what you talking od not qualify for this...


  • #43
    twin_beacon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,240 ✭✭✭twin_beacon


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Was wondering a couple of things- if you had two steaks with one from a dairy cow and the other from a cow raised specifically for beef how much of a taste difference could you expect?


    I would imagine you would not actually get a steak from a dairy cow, most of the beef consumed in the world is ground beef, i.e. burgers, and id say that's where strippers end up. The younger beef cattle will be the steaks, depending on how they are finished.

    Just to add to this, I was in Prague almost three years ago, one of the restaurants I was in had Argentine steak on the menu, so thought I'd give it a go, with an open mind. Lovely cut of steak, cooked pretty much how I like it, but I have to honestly say, taste wise it wasn't great.


  • #44
    twin_beacon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,240 ✭✭✭twin_beacon


    alps wrote: »
    It excludes all P grade beef. This is the most significant "rug pull" on dairy beef ever...

    Half the beef produced in the country is dairy beef and half of that dairy beef is finished on the farm it was born on...

    This is going to cause an extreme amount of discontent..

    spend a minimum of 220 days per year throughout their lifetime grazing pasture.


    I can see this causing problems too.


  • #45
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,104 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Well, to indicate a difference between grass fed and feedlot, no feedlot cattle were slaughtered during the Chinese inspections of any factory last year. The Origin Green flag was put up too for the day.

    Yes the GM feeding is a disgrace. What level of strictness on the grass v grain element should be discussed in detail. Total grass/clover diet is doable as some organic producers do it. Many also use their own crimp grain. To use these finishing strategies, the price difference needs to be fairly significant. This is a totally different product than feedlot cattle.

    A P grade meat cut eg steak would be a poor shape and low protein meat yield.
    It's burger meat.


  • #46
    Panch18
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Panch18


    Water John wrote: »
    Well, to indicate a difference between grass fed and feedlot, no feedlot cattle were slaughtered during the Chinese inspections of any factory last year. The Origin Green flag was put up too for the day.

    Yes the GM feeding is a disgrace. What level of strictness on the grass v grain element should be discussed in detail. Total grass/clover diet is doable as some organic producers do it. Many also use their own crimp grain. To use these finishing strategies, the price difference needs to be fairly significant. This is a totally different product than feedlot cattle.

    A P grade meat cut eg steak would be a poor shape and low protein meat yield.
    It's burger meat.

    Out of interest where did you hear that no feedlot cattle were killed during the Chinese inspections?


  • #47
    Panch18
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Panch18


    Isn't 50% of the beef in this country produced from the dairy herd already? And that number is rising as dairy increases and sucklers decrease.


    And just for the record - suckler beef is absolutely in no way superior to dairy bred beef. In fact most Irish people who buy meat from their butcher are buying meat from Hereford or Angus heifers originating from the dairy herd. In fact i would say that continental breeds in general provide a meat that is too lean, too muscular and definitely not tasty enough for the Irish palate


  • #48
    Jjameson
    Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson


    Feedlot status is only a tb status. Nothing to do with the cattle’s diet.


  • #49
    Jjameson
    Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson


    Water John wrote: »
    Well, to indicate a difference between grass fed and feedlot, no feedlot cattle were slaughtered during the Chinese inspections of any factory last year. The Origin Green flag was put up too for the day.

    Yes the GM feeding is a disgrace. What level of strictness on the grass v grain element should be discussed in detail. Total grass/clover diet is doable as some organic producers do it. Many also use their own crimp grain. To use these finishing strategies, the price difference needs to be fairly significant. This is a totally different product than feedlot cattle.

    A P grade meat cut eg steak would be a poor shape and low protein meat yield.
    It's burger meat.

    It is perfectly shaped for a thick cut. If the animal is fleshed it’s often well marbled. The yield per carcass is considerably lower. You are going nowhere with this bovine snobbery lads!
    https://www.teagasc.ie/media/website/publications/2016/ASA-050516.pdf


  • #50
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,047 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Panch18 wrote: »
    Out of interest where did you hear that no feedlot cattle were killed during the Chinese inspections?

    Sounds like what Beef Plan would come out with


  • #51
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Jjameson wrote: »
    Feedlot status is only a tb status. Nothing to do with the cattle’s diet.

    True , call it a finishing lot then ...( But most feed lots are finishing cattle )

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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  • #52
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,047 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Jjameson wrote: »
    I see this as the green shoots of a positive future. We are relative minnows in terms of beef production in the world but we are on the doorstep of the best marketplace in Europe and we have the right product. Marketing and perception is everything in retail if you want a premium price.

    This doesn’t actually sit well with processors /government policy at all, high volume/output stack it high sell it cheap.
    Teagasc and the IFA both gave it a Luke warm response too. Neither seem to grasp the concept of a better price for an extensively produced product combined with environmental/bio diversity related payments equals a better chance of a few remaining in the coffers of rural Ireland and not in the offshore accounts of beef barons.

    I don’t concur calls for exclusivity of suckler beef labelling or 100 per cent grass fed as the end product is not discernible from minimum grain predominantly grass fed or dairy cross beef and I’m not keen to open a debacle I made the mistake of pointing out on this forum before! but I’m of the option that there are firm advantages to docile and thriving cattle regardless of conformation(which is purely primal cut percentage measurement not beef quality)
    https://www.mla.com.au/globalassets/mla-corporate/effect-of-ph-on-beef-eating-quality_sep11.pdf

    Will it not be the same as all the niche markets, ie organic, hereford, angus, etc, in that the usual beef barons will be processing and marketing.
    I know Organic lamb has had it's ups and downs and ICM have put huge effort into marketing it, yet not every lamb gets the bonuses


  • #53
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    twin_beacon wrote: »
    I would imagine you would not actually get a steak from a dairy cow, most of the beef consumed in the world is ground beef, i.e. burgers, and id say that's where strippers end up. The younger beef cattle will be the steaks, depending on how they are finished.

    Just to add to this, I was in Prague almost three years ago, one of the restaurants I was in had Argentine steak on the menu, so thought I'd give it a go, with an open mind. Lovely cut of steak, cooked pretty much how I like it, but I have to honestly say, taste wise it wasn't great.
    I was on holiday in Argentina years ago , the beef was good .. and they really appreciate the flavour, saw plenty of extremely free range ,tame ,cattle eating grass on ranch type settings , and feed lots too in tillage areas ,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #54
    Mooooo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    Markcheese wrote: »
    True , call it a finishing lot then ...( But most feed lots are finishing cattle )

    Feedlot is a TB status where the only way stock can exit is to a factory. There are a good few summer finishers with feedlot status, where they would be finished off grass, cull cow's or autumn born stock etc. Department are trying to reduce the numbers tho in that status that graze stock


  • #55
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    wrangler wrote: »
    Will it not be the same as all the niche markets, ie organic, hereford, angus, etc, in that the usual beef barons will be processing and marketing.
    I know Organic lamb has had it's ups and downs and ICM have put huge effort into marketing it, yet not every lamb gets the bonuses

    Yup .. it's just a label and marketing term ... The major factories are still going to be the ones processing and selling it .. I don't see it being any other way ... I suppose it's a way for bord bia to keep marketing this green / grass fed image , even as beef finishing moves more and more towards sheds and grain finishing ....
    If your going to offer the consumer cheaper brazilian grain fed beef ,or dearer Irish grain fed beef which way do you think they'll jump ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #56
    Welding Rod
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭Welding Rod


    Grass or no grass, Larry will have a big day in who gets the cream off the pie!
    The only thing that softens his cough is scarcity and live exports! You could feed them on hashish then and he would pay ....


  • #57
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,627 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Love to see a label for Traditional breeds raised on traditional mixed swards and winter fed Hay,oats, forage crops etc.. I beleive there is already a pilot scheme running on Inishowen using the likes of Dexters to re-create extensive upland habitat. Currently only selling privatly but one chap I know who has tried it says it has the most remarkable flavour and texture.

    PS: Now that I think of it something similar is being considered for Hen Harrier areas by DAFM/NPWS


  • #58
    Jjameson
    Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson


    wrangler wrote: »
    Will it not be the same as all the niche markets, ie organic, hereford, angus, etc, in that the usual beef barons will be processing and marketing.
    I know Organic lamb has had it's ups and downs and ICM have put huge effort into marketing it, yet not every lamb gets the bonuses

    As it is the bord bia label is a meaningless guaranteed Irish slogan, and they bandy the term grass fed in their lazy inept marketing when there are no parameters whatsoever regarding the volume of concentrates or the ingredients of concentrates and their origin. (Waters are even murky on the Irish slogan this in respect to processing) adhering to no more standard than is required by the dept of agriculture but have set up themselves up as a regulatory body mirroring dept inspections on farms. The farmers didn’t damage the reputation of Irish beef. Dirty Larry did that but they are lucky to have his participation as without it they are gone, and as such the level of inspection at processor level along with the gift of a market control measure “an animals 30month birthday” along with the bonuses.
    So yes I agree that’s another days work.

    But in terms of securing top shelf status for Irish beef in the uk to compete with red tractor label this is positive in my view.


  • #59
    Castlekeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Castlekeeper


    K.G. wrote: »
    and some continentals are brutes to calve and can 2 weeks plus with male calves.have to say the herefords are no problem to calve here and can move the calves easy enough

    As can some Herefords, good that your bull is working out well. I'm a big fan of the traditional English Hereford but most of the breeding is gone bigger boned and harder calving.
    I wouldn't be using most of the continental breeds either.


  • #60
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,047 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Jjameson wrote: »
    As it is the bord bia label is a meaningless guaranteed Irish slogan, and they bandy the term grass fed in their lazy inept marketing when there are no parameters whatsoever regarding the volume of concentrates or the ingredients of concentrates and their origin. (Waters are even murky on the Irish slogan this in respect to processing) adhering to no more standard than is required by the dept of agriculture but have set up themselves up as a regulatory body mirroring dept inspections on farms. The farmers didn’t damage the reputation of Irish beef. Dirty Larry did that but they are lucky to have his participation as without it they are gone, and as such the level of inspection at processor level along with the gift of a market control measure “an animals 30month birthday” along with the bonuses.
    So yes I agree that’s another days work.

    But in terms of securing top shelf status for Irish beef in the uk to compete with red tractor label this is positive in my view.

    Someone is selling 35000 cattle/week, beef plan were claiming they were the new uthopia selling 1500 whenever the ship bothered to appear, don't ever discount the job off moving 35000 cattle/week until you've tried it yourself.
    Our lamb group has been through our lamb factory many times and the effort that goes into moving stuff is unreal


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  • #61
    Jjameson
    Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson


    wrangler wrote: »
    Someone is selling 35000 cattle/week, beef plan were claiming they were the new uthopia selling 1500 whenever the ship bothered to appear, don't ever discount the job off moving 35000 cattle/week until you've tried it yourself.
    Our lamb group has been through our lamb factory many times and the effort that goes into moving stuff is unreal

    The effort there to lead the charge downwards on price is unreal you mean .. Their niche marketing man left not to long after the maith an fear takeover having done great work over the years for the place. Not a happy place to work in or have anything to do with.
    But I appreciate your point nonetheless.


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