Sub 2.50 - and beyond!

Peckham · 16-07-2013 1:20pm

Peterx wrote: »

Signed up for Dublin. In my previous two marathons I've done 3.03 and 2.53. Another 10 minute pb would be cool but I'll settle for 5 minutes, no need to be greedy again, it was aiming for 2.40 the last time that lead to 2.53!

So you were looking for a 20+ minute PB last time - that's a huge jump from 3:03! What did you learn from this that you're implementing this time?

Peterx wrote: »

I'm on a version of the "Minnock Method" 15 week plan which has brought a certain Barry plenty of success over his last 4 marathons.

Details?!

tunguska · 16-07-2013 2:26pm

Peterx wrote: »

it was aiming for 2.40 the last time that lead to 2.53!

I remember that actually. I saw you at around the 12mile point and you looked to be slowing a bit, which I was surprised at because only a few weeks earlier you'd buried me in the race series half.
Do you reckon you went out too hard on the day or did you make a mistake in your training i.e. not enough marathon paced runs?

DogSlySmile · 17-07-2013 9:31pm

Peterx wrote: »

I'm on a version of the "Minnock Method" 15 week plan which has brought a certain Barry plenty of success over his last 4 marathons.

Just checking out Barry's progress over the years on the IMRA results page

He started out with some decent enough results but within 3 years he was a regular in the top 10 and within 6 years he was winning some very tough races consistently and looking untouchable. He's now a 2:17 marathoner. There's hope out there for all of us I suppose!;)

Peterx · 18-07-2013 10:29am

Peckham wrote: »

So you were looking for a 20+ minute PB last time - that's a huge jump from 3:03! What did you learn from this that you're implementing this time?

Details?!

Realism I think. I was a bit pigheaded the last time.

tunguska wrote: »

I remember that actually. I saw you at around the 12mile point and you looked to be slowing a bit, which I was surprised at because only a few weeks earlier you'd buried me in the race series half.
Do you reckon you went out too hard on the day or did you make a mistake in your training i.e. not enough marathon paced runs?

I think my training was probably more suited to the half marathon the last time. I think (influenced by T runner in fairness) that I didn't do enough hard long runs. I was loving the 8x2km sessions but in retrospect I did those too hard.
Also I was not focussed enough. I did too many adventure races and other distractions at the expense of the long runs.

On the day I really felt like I needed electrolytes too early as I was trying to maintain a pace I hadn't trained enough for. That might happen again of course!

Peterx · 18-07-2013 10:33am

The Minnock Method - simply put Barry has very kindly given me a 15 week schedule which is very similar to the one that he has followed with much success.
To be honest I'm not going to be putting the details of that up, that would be for him to do I think.
I've already broken the plan with an IMRA hillrun last night but apparently weeks 12 down to 2 are the important ones so I can keep messing for another two weeks.

Enduro · 18-07-2013 11:30am

Does that new seriousness and lack of messing mean you'll be skipping GF this year?

Good luck with this. I've no doubt whatsoever about your ability to comfortably hit your target.

jfh · 18-07-2013 11:52am

Peterx wrote: »

I think my training was probably more suited to the half marathon the last time. I think (influenced by T runner in fairness) that I didn't do enough hard long runs. I was loving the 8x2km sessions but in retrospect I did those too hard.
I did too many adventure races and other distractions at the expense of the long runs.
QUOTE]
hi peterx, i'm going for a similar target coming from an even bigger jump, 3:41 marathon but my 1/2 marathon times suggests i can do that according to Mcmillian:) the thing is to get the training done without injury, so i'm not jumping into a high milage plan.

I'm taking it very gradually, few weeks at 50 mile & doing my long run steady over trails. I'm kinda worried now as you said you were more trained for the half than the full especially the part of the 8 * 2km reps, thought they'd be perfect for the marathon?
without going into details of your plan, are you incorporating much trails/hills into the plan?

i know the experienced marathoners here say you have to replicate race conditions as much as possible but if i go out and do all my runs on road, my body wont recover. As it is i feel the legs are very stiff & creaky, knees cracking.
i was looking at the P&D 50 - 70 mile plan but would not be able for it this time, it's got 4 runs 10 miles & over this week if i was planning on following it.
sorry for ramble, the crux of the question is it possible to train for a marathon on trails/hills? Barry minnock is an expert on both so i'm thinking it is?

Krusty_Clown · 18-07-2013 12:29pm

jfh wrote: »

hi peterx, i'm going for a similar target coming from an even bigger jump, 3:41 marathon but my 1/2 marathon times suggests i can do that according to Mcmillian:) the thing is to get the training done without injury, so i'm not jumping into a high milage plan.

I'm taking it very gradually, few weeks at 50 mile & doing my long run steady over trails. I'm kinda worried now as you said you were more trained for the half than the full especially the part of the 8 * 2km reps, thought they'd be perfect for the marathon?
without going into details of your plan, are you incorporating much trails/hills into the plan?

i know the experienced marathoners here say you have to replicate race conditions as much as possible but if i go out and do all my runs on road, my body wont recover. As it is i feel the legs are very stiff & creaky, knees cracking.
i was looking at the P&D 50 - 70 mile plan but would not be able for it this time, it's got 4 runs 10 miles & over this week if i was planning on following it.
sorry for ramble, the crux of the question is it possible to train for a marathon on trails/hills? Barry minnock is an expert on both so i'm thinking it is?

I'm sure you can do much of your training on trails/hills, but there really is no substitute for those 10-15 mile marathon pace segments of a run, in race conditions. I followed JD Plan A, which isn't quite as structured as P&D, and broke up many of my 10-15 mile days into multiple runs, which served me well (and might be an option for you?), but this was backed up with lots of long runs (20-22 miles) at the weekend at 6:40-6:50/mile and those key marathon pace sessions.

If you're struggling (injury etc.) with the mid-week 10 mile runs, then hitting those speed/endurance runs will be tough. Could you complete some of your long runs/sessions on grass (e.g. the Phoenix Park)?

jfh · 18-07-2013 12:55pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I'm sure you can do much of your training on trails/hills, but there really is no substitute for those 10-15 mile marathon pace segments of a run, in race conditions. I followed JD Plan A, which isn't quite as structured as P&D, and broke up many of my 10-15 mile days into multiple runs, which served me well (and might be an option for you?), but this was backed up with lots of long runs (20-22 miles) at the weekend at 6:40-6:50/mile and those key marathon pace sessions.

If you're struggling (injury etc.) with the mid-week 10 mile runs, then hitting those speed/endurance runs will be tough. Could you complete some of your long runs/sessions on grass (e.g. the Phoenix Park)?

cheers Krusty, was wondering where you had gone, that log has gone quiet of late!
i followed your london training & it was inspiring to say the least, Yes breaking up the med long run into 2 is an option & one i have actually been trying but was constantly wrecked, don't know how you did it.

i do have a teething baby to contend with that's not concerned with my marathon plan:D
i have a plan drawn up from a guy who know's his running but has never done a marathon. a little bit concerned as my long run is 1 hr 30 min so far, about 13 miles, cant tell for sure as it's on trail/forest route. it's actually ideal as my legs recover quickly after it & imagine it'll be great half training, that's yet to be proven.

on the P&D plan week 2, there's 16 miles, with 8 at MP:eek:
from what i remember in your plan, Daniels didn't have much MP runs, a lot of tempo? so i'm a little behind or i feel that looking at other people's logs with similiar goals.
i dont have a history of marathon training(high milage) so maybe i stick to what i'm at for this year & do one of the more traditional plans for my next marathon.
appreciate the advice though & i'm definetly going to give the double days a go when things quieten down & milage increases.

ThePiedPiper · 18-07-2013 2:55pm

jfh wrote: »

on the P&D plan week 2, there's 16 miles, with 8 at MP:eek:
from what i remember in your plan, Daniels didn't have much MP runs, a lot of tempo? so i'm a little behind or i feel that looking at other people's logs with similiar goals.
.

Find it hard to get my head around that session three months out from a goal marathon. I know I could probably do it, but it just seems massive at an early stage. For those of you who've followed Daniels before, what are your thoughts?

I'd usually only start putting the serious MP miles into long runs about 10 weeks before marathon time. Possibly selling myself short.

Krusty_Clown · 18-07-2013 5:10pm

RunForestRun wrote: »

Find it hard to get my head around that session three months out from a goal marathon. I know I could probably do it, but it just seems massive at an early stage. For those of you who've followed Daniels before, what are your thoughts?

I'd usually only start putting the serious MP miles into long runs about 10 weeks before marathon time. Possibly selling myself short.

Yeah, I always struggled with the PMP run in the first few weeks of the P&D plan. The next one (though longer) was always a little more manageable, and by the final one or two (though longer again) they were achievable.

In Plan A, JD has PMP runs:
10 weeks out: 16/17 miles inc. 12/13 miles @MP
7 weeks out: 19 miles inc. 15 miles @MP
3 weeks out: 19 miles inc. 15 miles @MP

So certainly no push-over either. Those are tough sessions. Last time out, I didn't quite hit the numbers on the PMP run 7 weeks out, but managed the session 3 weeks out and hit my marathon goal. I reckon if you can hit the numbers 3 weeks out from your goal race, you've a bloody good chance of hitting your marathon goal time.

Peterx · 22-07-2013 10:21am

RunForestRun wrote: »

Find it hard to get my head around that session three months out from a goal marathon. I know I could probably do it, but it just seems massive at an early stage. For those of you who've followed Daniels before, what are your thoughts?

I'd usually only start putting the serious MP miles into long runs about 10 weeks before marathon time. Possibly selling myself short.

I did a 40 minute tempo on Saturday at 4.01min/km pace - which is 2 seconds slower per km then my PMP but sure it was the first training session and hopefully the tempo pace will come up as the training takes effect. I wouldn't be worrying about PMP at this stage because if I did I'd have to give up already.
loads of time:)

jfh - hill running isn't ideal for marathon training but is good for the soul and mixing it up so no harm to do a few long runs on the hills. The Phoneix Park can become very familar!

Peterx · 07-08-2013 12:07pm

About 12 weeks to go now.
The last three weeks have been very enjoyable, just following the plan and dropping about a kilo of excess baggage. Maintaining the consistent consistency will be the important part, well that and getting my interval and tempo pace down a bit too. I'm possibly being a little soft on myself but sure I don't wanna get injured.

It was ever so slightly demoralising yesterday doing a 4 x 2k interval session at the same pace as a lad out on a steady run. He just kept going as I kept stopping for 2 minute recovery

The 10 miler in the park will be the first test/indication of where I am.

How are ye getting on?

ThePiedPiper · 08-08-2013 8:29am

Things are starting to fall into place nicely for me, I think. I've been very consistent in my training since the end of May, and have seen improvements in all race distances. At the start of the schedule, I'd set the National Half as the gauge to see if I would actually have the speed to commit fully to sub 2:50. The 1:19 finish has given me the confidence to go into the next few weeks with 2:50 still firmly possible. I split under the hour for the last 10 miles of it too, which was great.

A couple of things worrying me slightly. I'm hopefully going to be starting a new job in a few weeks, that will involve long evenings of preparation and planning. The consistency that has been serving me so well for the last couple of months is bound to suffer in September, but if I can do two quality sessions per week in September, including the long run, the 13th of October will not be long coming around.

So far, so good for me then in summary, but there's a lot of uncertainty ahead.

Peterx · 08-08-2013 9:48am

RunForestRun wrote: »

Things are starting to fall into place nicely for me, I think.......if I can do two quality sessions per week in September, including the long run, the 13th of October will not be long coming around.

Well done in the half, the last ten under the hour is very encouraging.

That recovery run on the 13th is really worrying you though

Ross Runner · 13-08-2013 8:47am

Hey guys just wondering what kind of time you need to be running a half in to be in sub 2,50 territory? cheers

pointer28 · 13-08-2013 9:17am

Ross Runner wrote: »

Hey guys just wondering what kind of time you need to be running a half in to be in sub 2,50 territory? cheers

[url]Www.McMillanrunning.com

Use the running calculator and that should give you a good idea. I would imagine about 1:40 for a half.[/url]

RayCun · 13-08-2013 9:21am

pointer28 wrote: »

[url]Www.McMillanrunning.com

Use the running calculator and that should give you a good idea. I would imagine about 1:40 for a half.[/url]

Much faster than that, around 1.20 (give or take a couple of minutes)

ecoli · 13-08-2013 9:23am

pointer28 wrote: »

[url]Www.McMillanrunning.com

Use the running calculator and that should give you a good idea. I would imagine about 1:40 for a half.[/url]

2.50 is 2 x 1.25 Halves so would be a good bit quicker. Many people don't have the aerobic base built up for a steady correlation between times and as such there is significant drop off in times. As such I think you would would want to be down around the 1.22-1.23 range for a half atleast unless you are coming from a huge base

pointer28 · 13-08-2013 9:23am

RayCun wrote: »

Much faster than that, around 1.20 (give or take a couple of minutes)

Sh1t, that's what I meant to say.

DazzyR · 13-08-2013 9:24am

Ross Runner you would need to be looking at a sub 80 min half. Check out the McMillan race calculator which lets you put in a race time and figures out your likely time over different distances.

Ross Runner · 13-08-2013 11:16am

Cheers guys! pb is around 79mins hope to beat that in run up to marathon! fingers crossed. dont trust the calculators! races are ran on roads not paper

Peterx · 13-08-2013 1:05pm

Ross Runner wrote: »

Cheers guys! pb is around 79mins hope to beat that in run up to marathon! fingers crossed. dont trust the calculators! races are ran on roads not paper

The calculators assume you are doing the marathon training, so keep pumping out those long runs and the tempo sessions and the time will look after itself.
Best of luck and I hope you get the 79 min half marathon time, it all helps.

ultrapercy · 13-08-2013 1:09pm

Ross Runner wrote: »

Cheers guys! pb is around 79mins hope to beat that in run up to marathon! fingers crossed. dont trust the calculators! races are ran on roads not paper

I ran 2:48:30 off 80:xx and 2:49 off 81:xx. Your in 2:45 - 2:50 territory. Everyone is different but getting your marathon times to line up with your shorter distance times is all about preparation. Its not unusual for runners to outperform their shorter race times in the marathon because of good specific training.

Ross Runner · 13-08-2013 1:27pm

Thanks Peterx, training is going really well! can feel myself getting stronger plus the excess baggage is falling off.... your times have given me confidence ultrapercy,thanks! have clonmel half this wknd so il know where i am after that but the athlone flatline is the one where il be really targeting a good time!! sub 78 please god.......

jfh · 14-08-2013 10:08am

just out of interest, what/how many races are ye planning on before the big day. did the RocknRoll, prob leave the halves myself, entered the 3/4 athlone race. that Warriers run seems interesting but would it be any benefit to marathon training?

ultrapercy · 14-08-2013 12:26pm

jfh wrote: »

just out of interest, what/how many races are ye planning on before the big day. did the RocknRoll, prob leave the halves myself, entered the 3/4 athlone race. that Warriers run seems interesting but would it be any benefit to marathon training?

The Warriors run sold out about half a second after entries opened and It says in the bible that its easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than get a late entry for The Warriors.

Peterx · 14-08-2013 12:43pm

difficult for camels in the bible but the oul octopus manages the needle trick on youtube

and lo it would appear that this year there are plenty of late spaces opening up for the Warriors with their highly efficient transfers messageboard on their website.

I'm hoping to get a late Warriors entry myself as we'll be in the area that Friday for a wedding. I am doing my one indulgence race this Saturday (a multisport 4 hour race) followed by the Dublin series 10 miler and 1/2 marathon with two 10k races in the plan for weeks 3 and 2 out from raceday.

ThePiedPiper · 14-08-2013 1:31pm

Did National half and will but doing the athlone half.. That'll be my lot over next few weeks. shorter races were great for building speed over June and July but next few weeks will be marathon specific training only

jfh · 14-08-2013 1:48pm

ultrapercy wrote: »

The Warriors run sold out about half a second after entries opened and It says in the bible that its easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than get a late entry for The Warriors.

there's the odd race entry number popping up..

Sub 2.50 - and beyond!

Comments