Sub 2.50 - and beyond!

Gringo78 · 18-01-2011 1:24pm

Mac Cormaic wrote: »

Some very interesting points here. I'm planning to train to run a sub 2.30 marathon in Dublin this year, my pb been only 3.35. The reason is I read a thread on this forum lately that an any average runner can run a 2.30 with the right training program. My training last year never exceeded 20 - 30 miles a week, and there was no consitency. I was taking weeks off at a time (often only did 6 miles), with very little speed work. This year I plan to do a 9 month training program, and increase my mileage up to a basic 50 miles a week, with increased mileage (if I don't have races). At least I'll be able to put the theory to test, and it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if I only knocked 10 minutes off my times. Some will say it's probably impossible to knock that much time off a marathon in such a short period of time. I'm not sure, but sure we'll see how it goes over the next few months.

http://samhioldanach.blogspot.com/

I do think the average runner can run 2:30 eventually but on average I would expect it to take 100-120mpw which is a far cry from 50. Also, I would expect it to take 2-3 years and 3-4 cycles of marathon training. So you are probably setting the time target a bit on the overly ambitious side but as you say, you would be delighted with even a 10min improvement if thats what you get out of the experiment so why not reach for the stars. However, be careful, the worst you can get out of it is an overtraining injury like a stress fracture and be sidelined for a long time - so build things up slowly, enjoy the running and just try to get consistent quality training in. Even if you make extremely slow progress, if you train consistently it will add up to a lot over 8-9 years.

Mac Cormaic · 18-01-2011 2:09pm

heffsarmy wrote: »

Mac Cormac, I read your blog. I think your asking alot, on your blog you reckon your current marathon time would be about 4hrs and you plan to knock 10minutes off each month to get you too sub 2.30 for the Dublin marathon, you also seem to be doing more weight training and hiking than running, good luck with your goal.

I don't disagree with you heffsarmy. My marathon time is about 4.00 hours at present, but I'll have knocked that down to close to 3.30/3.40 in six weeks. That would be my general level of fitness. I said I'm about a 4 hr marathon at present, simply because I've hadn't trained in about 6/7 weeks before the new year. What I would class as weight training would include a variety of exercise, stretches, skipping and so forth. My hiking will slowly turn into mountain runs as the legs build up. I'm doing that principally to build the agility of the legs and strengthen different muscles. I found personally when I run marathons that after mile 17 as the body begins to crunch up, I start to use different muscles and change the posture. I see hill running as an opportunity to run principally on my toes going uphill. As I said it is merely a challenge. If I only knock a few minutes off it wouldn't bother me at all.

Mac Cormaic · 18-01-2011 2:16pm

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Mac Cormaic, we met in Killarney and (shortly) in the Dublin marathon, so I'd like to say good luck, but Good God, that's one hell of a target. Even going from 3:37 to 2:59 is ambitious, why not aim for this one to start with?

Ah its merely a challenge. Obviously the goal is too target taking 5 minutes off at a time. You never know the blog name could change to sub 3 hour in June (haha), but sure what are we without ambition. I simply put my slow times down to having a poor training schedual. I normally run a 3.15 up to mile 16/17which is quiet good for the small mileage I do in training. Once I build my mileage up to 50 miles a week, I'd say I would comforably run close to a 3.15. Hopefully by mid April. Was good to meet you in Dublin. Hopefully I will see you at a few more marathons in the coming months.

Mac Cormaic · 18-01-2011 2:22pm

shels4ever wrote: »

Fairplay on the target and would love to see you do it, basically your aiming to get a top 10 spot in the national marathon with 9 month training :eek: all you need to do is find Pauric Mckinney as the start line and follow him around.

The base these sub 2:30/40 guys have is usually years of running in the legs, While its not impossible for you to do it, I'd agree with the lads here that sub 3 first maybe a better option.. But then again you need to dream too... my sub 2:04 plan started yesterday(well last night) .

Thanks shels4ever I'd love to see me do it to

. I agree that it will be extremely difficult, but as you use the term yourself 'its not impossible' begs the question can it be done. I'm very relaxed about it. For me to achieve a sub 3.30 at the moment, I'd feel great achievement. It is merely testing if an average runner can do a 2.30 with the right training program over 9 months. But basically I'm hoping that by focusing on the 7 points I posted up on the blog, that I'll be able to knock 10 minutes off my marathon times by perfecting each.

Mac Cormaic · 18-01-2011 2:36pm

Gringo78 wrote: »

I do think the average runner can run 2:30 eventually but on average I would expect it to take 100-120mpw which is a far cry from 50. Also, I would expect it to take 2-3 years and 3-4 cycles of marathon training. So you are probably setting the time target a bit on the overly ambitious side but as you say, you would be delighted with even a 10min improvement if thats what you get out of the experiment so why not reach for the stars. However, be careful, the worst you can get out of it is an overtraining injury like a stress fracture and be sidelined for a long time - so build things up slowly, enjoy the running and just try to get consistent quality training in. Even if you make extremely slow progress, if you train consistently it will add up to a lot over 8-9 years.

Personally I don't believe an individual needs to run 100-120 mpw to achieve a sub 2.30, although I might be proved wrong on that. I believe in the 3rd phase of training I'll run closer to 70 miles a week, and plan to include a 2 hr cycle on top of that to prevent over exertion on the bones/joints. I'm hoping that off-track running on very rough terrain and running barefoot over grass (comprising at least 33% of all runs), will build a different form of endurance as opposed to extensive mileage. I'll know by mid April the progress I'm making, and if my times are improving in the way I have been calculating.

Krusty_Clown · 18-01-2011 2:42pm

Hi Mac Cormaic, best of luck with your lofty goal/challenge. As long as you're not too set on your targets and are happy with progress rather than specific milestones, then at least you'll be heading in the right direction.

One question that begs asking though: your training regime (are you following a program?) seems to be based on a monthly marathon improvement, i.e. 10 minutes per month. Are you planning on racing a marathon every month and using this to determine your progress? Your blog mentions multi-marathoning, so I was wondering if this was what you had in mind. You'll have to consider recovery and injury lay-offs if that is the case.

Trying to improve 5 or 10 minutes (or more sizeable chunks) every marathon (note: I didn't say every month!) may work out in the beginning (as your fitness and mileage improve), but with the law of diminishing returns it will be very difficult to continue the same trend as you move up the times. I took 8 minutes off of my marathon time recently, but that took 12 weeks of training. It'll take me a lot more than 12 weeks of training to take off the next 8 minutes.

T runner · 18-01-2011 3:35pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

.........
Bundles of really, really good advice above. T. I am using a hybrid P&D and Daniels elite plan for this race actually, possibly as a way of bridging to a full Daniels elite next year maybe. I just don't know if I can commit the time though.
......

Hi Amadeus,

Be careful with this approach, nothing wrong with it though:

For Berlin I did 2 tough sessions per week (10 by 2k) and (thrshols run up to 56 mins). Because the P and D PMP long runs worked well for me in my Paris 2.44 i kept these. That meant running most of the long runs distance at pace from 30-60 secs of goal marathon pace. This was too much.

Count a P and D long run as a hard session and do only 2 of those (hards essions) per week. The remainder should be to accumulate my miles.

if i ahd my time back, i would have done a P and D paced long run every 2nd week. Replacing one of the tougher runs when i did it. LSR every second week also.

What im saying is if you are doinga hybrid, dont add hard sessions to one schedule or another, replace them.

Also for the critical alst 2-4 weeks before taper, ahve a solid plan. You will be tired, a little obsessed with a huge training load at this time. Ad libbing ar altering a plan taht is too flexible during thsi period can end in disaster.

Have your HM race or whatever race you plan for this period in your schedule well in advance, complementing your necessary longer sessions and runs.

Havinga solid plan to follow for this crucial period can be half the work.

Mac Cormaic · 18-01-2011 6:39pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi Mac Cormaic, best of luck with your lofty goal/challenge. As long as you're not too set on your targets and are happy with progress rather than specific milestones, then at least you'll be heading in the right direction.

One question that begs asking though: your training regime (are you following a program?) seems to be based on a monthly marathon improvement, i.e. 10 minutes per month. Are you planning on racing a marathon every month and using this to determine your progress? Your blog mentions multi-marathoning, so I was wondering if this was what you had in mind. You'll have to consider recovery and injury lay-offs if that is the case.

Trying to improve 5 or 10 minutes (or more sizeable chunks) every marathon (note: I didn't say every month!) may work out in the beginning (as your fitness and mileage improve), but with the law of diminishing returns it will be very difficult to continue the same trend as you move up the times. I took 8 minutes off of my marathon time recently, but that took 12 weeks of training. It'll take me a lot more than 12 weeks of training to take off the next 8 minutes.

I'm putting together my marathon training program at the moment, which will begin at the start of February. This month is bascially just a warm up month. I hope to run a good few marathons in the next six months, and will use the final three months to let the body build in strength and speed. With the training program I have in mind, after intensive marathon-runs, I will switch over to cross-country, cycling and weights for five-day recovery, and then back to road running. For the first six-months I will complete a marathon each month, and will only do marathons in the last three months as training exercises (possibly pacing myself for the first 15 - 18 miles as fast as I can).

The way I see myself knocking off the 90 minutes over nine months is 10 minutes on each of the key aspects of my training program.

1. Intellect (knowing how to run, learning tips).
2. Core training
3. Diet
4. Upper body
5. Legs
6. Comprehensive training
7. Speed work

and two subsequent aspects

8. Races (for the competitive edge)
9. Endurance runs (for stamina and pacing).

A rough estimate of how I see my times be reduced over the nine months would be (at the end of each month)

February - 24 minutes/3.36 marathon (giving me six weeks to recover my natural fitness).
March - 18 minutes/3/18 marathon (I'd probably run close to a 3.18/20 by sticking to a training program; I have run most of my marathons at 3.15 pace up to the 16/18 mile).
April - 12 minutes/3.06 marathon
May - 10 minutes/2.56 marathon
June - 9 minutes/2.47 marathon
July - 7 minutes/2.40 marathon
August - 5 minutes/2.35 marathon
September - 3 minutes/2.32 marathon
October - 2 minutes/2.30 marathon

In my eyes it's really the first 5 months that will be the challenge; and by the end of month 3 I'll be fully able to determine if I can actually achieve the goals I have set. You must remember that I would generally have classed myself as been unfit when running all my marathons before, carrying probably a stone in excess weight, and often doing only 20 miles training at week (with the only speed-work been if I ran in 5 mile races, which just up'd the tempo).

RayCun · 18-01-2011 7:23pm

Mac Cormaic wrote: »

For the first six-months I will complete a marathon each month, and will only do marathons in the last three months as training exercises

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how you could hope to do a full training programme over 9 months while also running a marathon a month to the best of your ability.

To run your best marathon you'll have to taper off beforehand, and if you've run to your limits you'll need to recover after. Where does the training fit in?

john do · 18-01-2011 8:17pm

I,d just like to say to your man planning on doing the sub 2.30 marathon is go for it. I consider myself as a relative inexperienced runner as I only took up running less than 2 years ago and done my first and only marathon last year in a sub a sub 2.30 time on less than 70 miles average a week only going over 70 when long runs were over 20 miles. I never done speed work but tried to do plenty of races and use them as speed work.
Average week ,
Mon- 7miles 6.40 pace
Tues- 12 miles one week 6 miles the next week- 5.30-5.40
wed-7-9 miles 6.40
Thur-5 miles 5.30-5.40
Fri-9 miles 6.40
Sat-7 miles 6.40
Sun-long run 18-24 miles 6.20-6.30

I would agree with the comment that the average runner could run a sub 2.30 marathon because thats just what I am

heffsarmy · 18-01-2011 9:49pm

Fair play to you John do, were did you do the marathon. Have you any plans to do another one, I think you should could be a national contendor.

Mac Cormaic · 18-01-2011 10:47pm

RayCun wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how you could hope to do a full training programme over 9 months while also running a marathon a month to the best of your ability.

To run your best marathon you'll have to taper off beforehand, and if you've run to your limits you'll need to recover after. Where does the training fit in?

I think it was on his 25th consecutive marathon Gerry Duffy ran a 3.24 and 4 days later ran a 3.17, after running three marathons in between (all around the 4 hr mark).

He proves that with the right training program recovery can happen in a very short period of time. While my program isn't complete yet, my proposal would be to run a marathon at the end of each month, take it easy for five days, doing a little weights, cross-training and possibly a few small jogs to shift any toxins in the body, and then be full swing back into training. I'd probably aim for a 18 mile jog the following weekend, 22 mile the week after, and 13 miles at fastest pace on the third week. I'd then taper down road runs for the following month's marathon on the 4th weekend. When I did my first marathon I did a 3 hr workout in the gym on the friday night (1 hr weights, 1 hr cycling and 1 hr cross-training) and ran the marathon on the Monday.

Personally I don't believe that a person needs to have several weeks rest before and after marathons, but I plan to find out over the coming months, which get's the most efficient results. If I'm sluggish in a follow up marathon, or my times don't improve I'll change my training program. I'll keep that quiet flexible in terms of how the body is holding up.

shels4ever · 18-01-2011 10:50pm

Mac Cormaic wrote: »

I think it was on his 25th consecutive marathon Gerry Duffy ran a 3.24 and 4 days later ran a 3.17, after running three marathons in between (all around the 4 hr mark).

He proves that with the right training program recovery can happen in a very short period of time. While my program isn't complete yet, my proposal would be to run a marathon at the end of each month, take it easy for five days, doing a little weights, cross-training and possibly a few small jogs to shift any toxins in the body, and then be full swing back into training. I'd probably aim for a 18 mile jog the following weekend, 22 mile the week after, and 13 miles at fastest pace on the third week. I'd then taper down road runs for the following month's marathon on the 4th weekend. When I did my first marathon I did a 3 hr workout in the gym on the friday night (1 hr weights, 1 hr cycling and 1 hr cross-training) and ran the marathon on the Monday.

Personally I don't believe that a person needs to have several weeks rest before and after marathons, but I plan to find out over the coming months, which get's the most efficient results. If I'm sluggish in a follow up marathon, or my times don't improve I'll change my training program. I'll keep that quiet flexible in terms of how the body is holding up.

So that will build the stamin etc but to go 2:30 you will need to develope your base speed also or do you have natural base speed?

jaymack75 · 18-01-2011 10:53pm

just for reference, according to the mcmillan calculator a 2:30 marathon equates to:

a mile in 4:26
5k in 15:23
5mile in 25:30
10k in 31:58
10mile in 53:33
half mar in 71:07

Mac Cormaic · 18-01-2011 10:54pm

john do wrote: »

I,d just like to say to your man planning on doing the sub 2.30 marathon is go for it. I consider myself as a relative inexperienced runner as I only took up running less than 2 years ago and done my first and only marathon last year in a sub a sub 2.30 time on less than 70 miles average a week only going over 70 when long runs were over 20 miles. I never done speed work but tried to do plenty of races and use them as speed work.
Average week ,
Mon- 7miles 6.40 pace
Tues- 12 miles one week 6 miles the next week- 5.30-5.40
wed-7-9 miles 6.40
Thur-5 miles 5.30-5.40
Fri-9 miles 6.40
Sat-7 miles 6.40
Sun-long run 18-24 miles 6.20-6.30

I would agree with the comment that the average runner could run a sub 2.30 marathon because thats just what I am

John that's a great boost to my confidence. That kind of mileage looks well within my grasp. It will probably take me 3/4 months to get my times down to 6 minute miles, but I'll have 5 months after that to try and increase mileage and pace to match your training schedual. It's great to see you having done a 2.30. Hopefully your times will improve even more over the next 2 years.

Mac Cormaic · 18-01-2011 11:24pm

shels4ever wrote: »

So that will build the stamin etc but to go 2:30 you will need to develope your base speed also or do you have natural base speed?

I have included two speed training drills every week in my training program. How do you measure 'base speed'? Is that how fast you can run a mile?

Peterx · 18-01-2011 11:50pm

A 2.45 marathon is my goal for dublin 2011. Closer to 2.40 would be great but I learned last time out that you get out what you put in and I lack the discipline to fully focus on the one event.

I loved the training with the other marathon runners in my club and would encourage anyone going for an ambitious time (whatever that may be) to train with other lads. The feeling after the monster sessions were over is fantastic.

It would indeed be only mighty if Iten Kiwirunner could pace a 2.45 in Dublin for us after his experiences there!

TheRoadRunner · 19-01-2011 12:08am

Mac Cormaic wrote: »

John that's a great boost to my confidence. That kind of mileage looks well within my grasp. It will probably take me 3/4 months to get my times down to 6 minute miles, but I'll have 5 months after that to try and increase mileage and pace to match your training schedual. It's great to see you having done a 2.30. Hopefully your times will improve even more over the next 2 years.

Mac Cormaic do you mind me asking how old you are? Apart from marathons do you have pbs for shorter distances? Good PBS at shorter races could point towards the possibility of a 2.30 marathon.

Your ideas on training are unique and if im honest are not the way i would approach a crack at 2.30 but Best of luck. Maybe you could strat a log in the logs section so we could follow your weekly/monthly progress.

Krusty_Clown · 19-01-2011 12:20am

Mac Cormaic wrote: »

John that's a great boost to my confidence. That kind of mileage looks well within my grasp. It will probably take me 3/4 months to get my times down to 6 minute miles, but I'll have 5 months after that to try and increase mileage and pace to match your training schedual. It's great to see you having done a 2.30. Hopefully your times will improve even more over the next 2 years.

If your training strategy works, there's no reason why you should stop at 2:30. Why not keep going? Any idea where your potential lies? 2:20? Faster?

RayCun · 19-01-2011 9:47am

Mac Cormaic wrote: »

I think it was on his 25th consecutive marathon Gerry Duffy ran a 3.24 and 4 days later ran a 3.17, after running three marathons in between (all around the 4 hr mark).

I think he's run sub-3 though, so in none of those runs was he racing to his potential.

opus · 19-01-2011 10:39am

Mac Cormaic wrote: »

Some very interesting points here. I'm planning to train to run a sub 2.30 marathon in Dublin this year, my pb been only 3.35. The reason is I read a thread on this forum lately that an any average runner can run a 2.30 with the right training program. My training last year never exceeded 20 - 30 miles a week, and there was no consitency. I was taking weeks off at a time (often only did 6 miles), with very little speed work. This year I plan to do a 9 month training program, and increase my mileage up to a basic 50 miles a week, with increased mileage (if I don't have races). At least I'll be able to put the theory to test, and it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if I only knocked 10 minutes off my times. Some will say it's probably impossible to knock that much time off a marathon in such a short period of time. I'm not sure, but sure we'll see how it goes over the next few months.

http://samhioldanach.blogspot.com/

Wow that certainly is a stretch goal! Best of luck with it anyway. Makes me feel like a wimp for only planning to try and knock 10 mins of my marathon time this year

john do · 19-01-2011 10:56am

heffsarmy wrote: »

Fair play to you John do, were did you do the marathon. Have you any plans to do another one, I think you should could be a national contendor.

Well heffsarmy, Dublin last year, might do a marathon in the next few months if not just wait and do Dublin again.

heffsarmy · 19-01-2011 11:01am

John do were are you based? Are you in a club?

woodchopper · 19-01-2011 5:04pm

john do wrote: »

I,d just like to say to your man planning on doing the sub 2.30 marathon is go for it. I consider myself as a relative inexperienced runner as I only took up running less than 2 years ago and done my first and only marathon last year in a sub a sub 2.30 time on less than 70 miles average a week only going over 70 when long runs were over 20 miles. I never done speed work but tried to do plenty of races and use them as speed work.
Average week ,
Mon- 7miles 6.40 pace
Tues- 12 miles one week 6 miles the next week- 5.30-5.40
wed-7-9 miles 6.40
Thur-5 miles 5.30-5.40
Fri-9 miles 6.40
Sat-7 miles 6.40
Sun-long run 18-24 miles 6.20-6.30

I would agree with the comment that the average runner could run a sub 2.30 marathon because thats just what I am

Dont sell yourself short John. Any athlete with only two years of running behind them yet runs a sub 2.30 marathon is a very talented athlete. There is no reason why you wouldnt be able to run sub 2.20 in the next four years if you continue to train intelligently. Most important to your marathon training is the pace to which you run the long run ie there is no hanging around at 7.30 mile pace. The quality of the workouts is the most important factor in a marathon not the amount of miles you run although that does help.

Remember Duncan Kibet and James Kwambai 'only' ran 85-90 miles during their Rotterdam build up yet managed to run 2.04.27. Its the quality of your marathon workouts which is off the most importance ie long fast run, marathon paced tests. half marathon pace tests and regeneration runs to recover.

Regards
Woodchopper

ecoli · 19-01-2011 5:18pm

I wouldn say your "an average runner" as staying injury free given your intensity of your runs and lack of years of mileage. Staying injury free is a talent in itself and i think its one that even some elites would kill to have

tunguska · 19-01-2011 7:02pm

jaymack75 wrote: »

just for reference, according to the mcmillan calculator a 2:30 marathon equates to:

a mile in 4:26
5k in 15:23
5mile in 25:30
10k in 31:58
10mile in 53:33
half mar in 71:07

I wouldnt put too much stock in the macmilian calculator. I know of plenty of cases where people who had relatively slow times in short races went on to knock out a great marathon. There was one lad at the dublin marathon last year who I beat in every race throughout the year, 5k, 10k, 5 mile ,10mile and half marathon. When I was doing a 77min half he did a 1:20half. I did 57mins 10mile he did 59. I did 2:42 in the marathon he did 2:35. And he's over 45.

On another subject, I have it on good authority that the main man himself, Jack Daniels will be visiting these shores very soon. I reckon it'll be the running equivalent of Beetle-mania. Only this time 'round you can replace the hysterical teenage girls with grown men in their 30s.

jaymack75 · 20-01-2011 6:09pm

tunguska wrote: »

I wouldnt put too much stock in the macmilian calculator. I know of plenty of cases where people who had relatively slow times in short races went on to knock out a great marathon.

Fair enough tunguska - I only really use it as a guide of equivalent performance. I know there are other methods that give different times and comparing mile times to marathons is quite a stretch. Having said that, my post was really to show out that being in shape for sub 2:30 should mean being able to race the shorter distances in some very tidy times. What do you think a fair HM time would be for someone running sub 2:30?

tunguska wrote: »

There was one lad at the dublin marathon last year who I beat in every race throughout the year, 5k, 10k, 5 mile ,10mile and half marathon. When I was doing a 77min half he did a 1:20half. I did 57mins 10mile he did 59. I did 2:42 in the marathon he did 2:35. And he's over 45.

How do you know how hard the other guy was racing? If he did a 2:35 marathon with even splits, then by definition he did two halfs back to back quicker than the one you raced him in? What does that tell you? btw, mcmillan gives 76:49 as equal to a 2:42, so at least it works for your times

woodchopper · 20-01-2011 6:25pm

jaymack75 wrote: »

Fair enough tunguska - I only really use it as a guide of equivalent performance. I know there are other methods that give different times and comparing mile times to marathons is quite a stretch. Having said that, my post was really to show out that being in shape for sub 2:30 should mean being able to race the shorter distances in some very tidy times. What do you think a fair HM time would be for someone running sub 2:30?

71-72 minute half needed to run a sub 2.30 which is 75 or under back to back. A 73 minute half is too slow to aim for a sub 2.30. Obviously if the half is all uphill then thats a whole different story as they say

sherdo2010 · 20-01-2011 8:04pm

Looking for a marathon training programme for a mate of mine who's looking to do sub 2.50. is there any detailed programme out there to do this with times and training plans etc or even ones for sub 2.45...

Any help will be appreciated!!!

heffsarmy · 20-01-2011 8:14pm

Running any race during a marathon program is not the same as training specifically for the race. If you train specifically for the race you would run it faster.

Sub 2.50 - and beyond!

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