Hi vis discussion thread (read post #1)

buffalo · 30-01-2015 1:40pm

daragh_ wrote: »

I still have my Woggle. 5th Wicklow FTW.

To stay (vaguely on Topic) interesting how much hi-viz gear I'm seeing on Dublin Bike riders recently. The lights on those things are pretty good.

And the occasional helmet too. It saddens me.

Ole Rodrigo · 30-01-2015 2:01pm

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Exactly my beef - a regular commuter wants to know how to stay safe on their bike so they take the RSA issued safety equipment and think that they're hunky dory from then on. The light is clearly crap (but hey if the RSA gave it out it must be all I need) so clearly the hi-viz vest is the most important thing to have.

:mad:

The RSA should be lobbying for lighting standards as a priority over Hi Viz.

Honestly, I can see the merit in Hi Viz in unlit rural areas - folks walking home from town at night and that kind of thing. I often wear a gilet on night rides in rural areas ( in addition to a selection of lights ) simply because I'm not taking any chances in high speed traffic. Also those rides are less likely to be casual and more of an occasion so its not inconvenient. Whether this is tantamount to yielding to aggressive driving or not I don't know.

The requirements of urban and rural cycling are too different for one blanket policy, but the RSA could start by working on lighting standards with the support of Garda enforcement.

NeedMoreGears · 30-01-2015 2:12pm

A few observations as a driver in Dublin last night around 8pm

I came across about a dozen cyclists, eleven of which had excellent front and/or rear lights - easily visible from 100m. the laggard seemed to be a ninja kid just popping down the shop. To be honest, I was surprised so many were so well lit (it may well have been the small sample size of course).

About half had bright yellow/ "hi-vis" jackets or tabards which were only effective when the gray reflective material was caught in my car lights. The yellow material was washed out by the street lighting and didn't help me see them any better - if anything the body of the cylist faded a bit against a well lit background. Some of the other half had similar reflective material but on darker clothing. I had seen all of them well before the reflectors were visible because the lights were so good.

It did seem to suggest (recognising that 11 events is not a scientific study) that, at night, good lights are the key, reflective strips are helpful but only up close, and the high contrast bit may be a disbenefit is certain instances.

ThisRegard · 30-01-2015 2:50pm

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

I think when it comes to HigViz and Children's outings its as much an identifier as a locator, ie "all the kids in the yellow High Viz are in our group" Similarly we had Neckers, which had to be worn for insurance purposes but the High Viz is no doubt easier.

I mentioned it a few times before, but sit and watch several groups of kids, from different schools or outings, come together while all wearing high viz. See how easy it is to pick out your group then.

Micilin Muc · 30-01-2015 3:51pm

NeedMoreGears wrote: »

A few observations as a driver in Dublin last night around 8pm

It did seem to suggest (recognising that 11 events is not a scientific study) that, at night, good lights are the key, reflective strips are helpful but only up close, and the high contrast bit may be a disbenefit is certain instances.

On unlit country roads, high-viz can reflect from a few hundred metres away.

CramCycle · 30-01-2015 3:54pm

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

The RSA are actually the worst offenders for giving away the disposable Lights with a single LED, makes a bike road legal but completely ineffective at making a bike visible.

Worst lights ever, usually visible by accident when they fall out of the stupid place they have been attached.

NeedMoreGears wrote: »

A few observations as a driver in Dublin last night around 8pm

Micilin Muc wrote: »

On unlit country roads, high-viz can reflect from a few hundred metres away.

Just saying, he wasn't commenting about country roads.

NeedMoreGears · 30-01-2015 5:49pm

Micilin Muc wrote: »

On unlit country roads, high-viz can reflect from a few hundred metres away.

Presumably with headlights rather than dips (as would generally be used in an urban environment). IIRC dips throw a bit to the left and have a shorter range. Presumably also, the yellow bit would stand out a bit better in a generally unlit environment.

Btw, at one point outside the city on a partially lit road, I could see a cyclist from what I would guesstimate to be c. 700m due to their front light. They had reflective materials on their jacket but my headlights didn't seem to reach them.

tomasrojo · 30-01-2015 11:06pm

mcgratheoin wrote: »

I would much rather rely on my rear lights being seen than two reflective strips on an RSA backpack cover that may not sit in the light beam of the following car, or may be less visible due to my position on the bike (e.g. in the drops).

On a general point, when we're talking about hi-vis in a night time situation what we're talking about is reflectors - the hi-vis part of the jacket/bag cover is for daytime visibility, not night time. Interesting pic

Good picture. I posted a while back about seeing a small child wearing a hi-viz jacket on a suburban road. He was much more visible with dipped headlights than any adult I've ever seen.

As I said then, that doesn't mean I'm arguing that children on footpaths at night in the suburbs need hi-viz jackets.

tomasrojo · 30-01-2015 11:16pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Absolutely. "Jaywalking" was invented by motoring interests, just as hi-vis is promoted for the same purposes here. All of it amounts to an ideology (much of it unthinking perhaps) that pedestrians, cyclists, children, the elderly and disabled people must adapt to traffic circumstances, and not the other way round.

I've read a few articles in the last three years or so about the "invention" of jaywalking. There seems to be renewed interest in it.

This 99% Invisible podcast was very good, I thought. I think it highlights very convincingly how important ridicule was in getting long-standing habits to change.
http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/episode-76-the-modern-moloch/

RainyDay · 31-01-2015 1:19am

Liz O'Donnell, former PD Minister and recently appointed Chair of the Road Safety Authority was on the Late Late tonight. She said her main objective was to reduce the number of deaths, and she noted particular increases in the number of cyclists and pedestrians killed. Then prompted by Tubridy, she jumped into the hi-vis issue, as the apparent solution to this - but no mention at all of any need for any change in driver behaviour. Shoddy victim-blaming.

Carawaystick · 31-01-2015 2:53am

Hi Viz is fluorescent, it needs UV light to fluoresce. Car headlights don't have much or any UV, so don't cause the hi viz to light up in the dark.

Reflectors reflect light ( the clue is in the name) a Sam Browne belt is as much use at night as it'll have the same (or more) reflectors as a "hi viz" garment.

Pinch Flat · 31-01-2015 4:52am

RainyDay wrote: »

Liz O'Donnell, former PD Minister and recently appointed Chair of the Road Safety Authority was on the Late Late tonight. She said her main objective was to reduce the number of deaths, and she noted particular increases in the number of cyclists and pedestrians killed. Then prompted by Tubridy, she jumped into the hi-vis issue, as the apparent solution to this - but no mention at all of any need for any change in driver behaviour. Shoddy victim-blaming.

There was a hi vis best for everyone in the audience

Iwannahurl · 31-01-2015 9:05am

Pinch Flat wrote: »

There was a hi vis best for everyone in the audience

Are you serious?

If so, puke. This hi-vis crap is getting out of control.

CramCycle · 31-01-2015 9:11am

Gardai were handing them out on the N11 yesterday evening. Looked like the ones from the RSA with the non reflective strips.

Didn't stop me though, can't imagine why I was exempt.

Pinch Flat · 31-01-2015 10:02am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Are you serious?

If so, puke. This hi-vis crap is getting out of control.

No deadly serious. It's on the rte player - She's (Liz O'donnell - new rsa chairperson) interviewed from 42:00, hi vis packs are handed out at 44:00.

she starts by talking about road deaths - up on last year etc. then launched straight into everyone should wear a hi vis vest - no mention of people slowing down, being more aware of their surroundings, road or weather conditions. Bit depressing really.

So the message is - If you have an hi vis on you'll be immune to everything.

On a separate note, was cycling through the phoenix park behind a fella last night who was hi vis head to toe - including socks, which was a first for me

I'm going on to Amazon to see if I can get some hi vis underpants

monument · 31-01-2015 10:55am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Are you serious?

If so, puke. This hi-vis crap is getting out of control.

We don't watch the show usually but seen her on it.

Worse than Gay, who at least always included some balance when I heard him in interviews.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Hi Viz is fluorescent, it needs UV light to fluoresce. Car headlights don't have much or any UV, so don't cause the hi viz to light up in the dark.

Reflectors reflect light ( the clue is in the name) a Sam Browne belt is as much use at night as it'll have the same (or more) reflectors as a "hi viz" garment.

Sure, "High-vis" is now largely a colloquial phrase or at least most often used as a colloquial to describe vests and jackets which have both high-vis coloring and reflective stripes.

Lumen · 31-01-2015 11:35am

monument wrote: »

Worse than Gay, who at least always included some balance when I heard him in interviews.

eeeee · 31-01-2015 12:02pm

This would set a grim precedent:
http://road.cc/content/news/141716-wyoming-addresses-bike-safety-planning-law-making-all-cyclists-wear-200-square

tomasrojo · 31-01-2015 12:20pm

gadetra wrote: »

This would set a grim precedent:
http://road.cc/content/news/141716-wyoming-addresses-bike-safety-planning-law-making-all-cyclists-wear-200-square

Jeff Speck, author of Walkable City, took to Twitter to comment, saying: “Wyoming legislature introduces the "We are America's biggest dorks and will never get it" cycling bill.”

I do wonder whether some sort of push-back against this nonsense is overdue. When you have Operation Transformation including requests for wearing hi-viz for a walk in the park during good weather and daylight, we've crossed over into complete insanity.

Pinch Flat · 31-01-2015 12:44pm

Yeah next we'll be seeing people mowing their lawns wearing hi vis - you know, to stop you getting hurt by the lawnmower

tomasrojo · 31-01-2015 12:46pm

People just aren't wearing "their" hi-viz at the breakfast table.

CatFromHue · 31-01-2015 2:20pm

Pinch Flat wrote: »

No deadly serious. It's on the rte player - She's (Liz O'donnell - new rsa chairperson) interviewed from 42:00, hi vis packs are handed out at 44:00.

she starts by talking about road deaths - up on last year etc. then launched straight into everyone should wear a hi vis vest - no mention of people slowing down, being more aware of their surroundings, road or weather conditions. Bit depressing really.

So the message is - If you have an hi vis on you'll be immune to everything.

On a separate note, was cycling through the phoenix park behind a fella last night who was hi vis head to toe - including socks, which was a first for me

I'm going on to Amazon to see if I can get some hi vis underpants

Unless you got this stuff on, you're a death trap waiting to happen

$T2eC16F,!)0FI,YYSNb+BSKw9lCEgw~~60_35.JPG?set_id=880000500F

Iwannahurl · 31-01-2015 3:36pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

I do wonder whether some sort of push-back against this nonsense is overdue. When you have Operation Transformation including requests for wearing hi-viz for a walk in the park during good weather and daylight, we've crossed over into complete insanity.

Hear hear. I think a big reality check is needed, and concerted action is required to counter the hivisteria.

Unfortunately, in one sense it's a pure numbers game, in which might is right and the largest and loudest team wins by default. As the EU Commission's 2014 Transport Eurobarometer showed, Irish car dependence (at 73%) is second only to that of Cyprus (85%) in the EU28.

This means that, when it comes to matters of road safety and related issues, the dominant view in almost all circumstances and settings is that of the motorist. It's a statistical likelihood simply because of the sheer number of habitual motorists in every walk of life. This warped perspective is compounded and reinforced by poor public policy, and vice versa.

We can be World leaders in creating awareness of the importance of pedestrians & cyclists taking responsibility for their safety while using our roads [sic]. In darkness or glaring sunlight you must make yourself visible to traffic by wearing Hi-Vis safety vests.

http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=10102

Additionally, the media are saturated in car culture, with ads and sponsorship by motor industry vested interests everywhere you look. The upshot is that the dominant discourse on almost any issue is that which matches and endorses the perspective from behind the steering wheel.

RTÉ Radio 1 announce Volkswagen as sponsor of The Ray D'Arcy Show

The 18-month Volkswagen sponsorship, brokered by Mediacom, commences on Monday 2nd February 2015 and includes a suite of weekly promos across Radio 1’s top ten shows including Morning Ireland, Today with Sean O’Rourke, News at One, Liveline and Marian Finucane, as well as six sponsorship stings per show. The deal also includes outside broadcasts and promotions.

Pinch Flat · 31-01-2015 4:16pm

http://www.bath.ac.uk/news/2013/11/26/overtaking-cyclists/

Not sure if the above link was posted before, but interesting reading and consistent with my own findings. You could be on a hi vis bike, with hi vis tyres saddle and bar tape and wearing a hi vis gimp suit and it wouldn't make a jot of a difference.

Most of the situations I've nearly come a cropper in, the motorist was thinking "ah sure it's just a fella on a bike" and pulled out any way or cut in front or me - rather than thinking "oh here comes a fella on a bike - lets just give him a chance to pass before pulling out in front of him, or cutting left after I pass him"

Iwannahurl · 31-01-2015 5:49pm

Pinch Flat wrote: »

the motorist was thinking "ah sure it's just a fella on a bike" and pulled out any way or cut in front or me

That just about sums it up. And it works both ways, of course, since there are cyclists with helmets and hi-vis who think they are now licensed to do as they please.

I wear some token hi-vis, but I don't expect it to achieve anything significant. Actually I know for sure that it doesn't. As I do the school run with my kids, we are regularly overtaken by cars travelling way above the speed limit, or have motorists jump the lights as we are about to cross on the Green Man. I've mentioned high-visibility School Traffic Wardens already, and their routine experience of motorists failing to stop.

Earlier this week, on the way home after the school run, a motorist attempted to overtake me on a speed ramp at a junction.

If the cyclist is wearing hi-vis some motorists' attitude seems to be "I can see the cyclist so my driving behaviour does not need to be modified". If the cyclists is wearing ordinary clothes then it's a case of "no hi-vis to be seen so if anything goes wrong it's the cyclist's fault."

Capt'n Midnight · 31-01-2015 6:18pm

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

The RSA are actually the worst offenders for giving away the disposable Lights with a single LED, makes a bike road legal but completely ineffective at making a bike visible.

Would this be the same RSA that gave out non-reflective jackets ?

Capt'n Midnight · 31-01-2015 6:25pm

CramCycle wrote: »

good lights and Hi-vis = smart
Good lights = smart
No lights with hi vis= Ignorant at best but being ignorant does not mean they are not behaving stupidly, and people are defined by their actions.
No lights and no Hi vis = Stupid

No lights with hi vis= Stupid.

At night you need lights.
Proper retro reflective material is pretty good too. By law at bight bikes must have rear reflector of a certain size.

Bright yellow high viz without decent retro reflective material is not a substitute for anything at night , especially with yellow-orange sodium street lighting

Makes my blood boil when I see ninja cyclists in town at night with no lights , no reflectors on the bike , no reflective material and wearing dark clothes during bad weather.

A lot of cyclists don't seem to realise just how poor visibility can be for motorists with dirty,smeered, or fogged up windscreens. Yes motorists shouldn't set off like that but they do.

Pinch Flat · 31-01-2015 7:03pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Earlier this week, on the way home after the school run, a motorist attempted to overtake me on a speed ramp at a junction.

Happened to me a while back with hilarious (for me anyway) results.

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057125981/1/#post88490012

CramCycle · 31-01-2015 10:45pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

No lights with hi vis= Stupid.

Pretty much what I said, stupid is as stupid does.

John_C · 01-02-2015 12:30am

Pinch Flat wrote: »

I'm going on to Amazon to see if I can get some hi vis underpants

I saw flourescent bras on sale in Dunnes today.

Hi vis discussion thread (read post #1)

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