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Irish Rail Issue Tender for 600 Electric / Battery Carriages

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Comments

  • #122
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Works will take 5 years to complete fully. I'd expect it will open in phases meaning 1 route (Drogheada - Malahide been the easiest) could potentially open in 2024/25 sometime instead of working on small pockets all over the place to open all at the same time.

    Maynooth is meant to start first and I'd doubt they'd have another finished before it


  • #123
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    iT'S already been explained why it can't on here a few times, I used to think the same as you re: ramps. However when you account for different curves in the platform different train types and the fact that some people need physical help to mount the ramp it can't be done

    It can be done as has been done elsewhere.

    I can't see why different trains types can prevent it from happening. It's a simple case of phasing them in with new stock orders. The vast majority of Dublin commuter stock will be the same type once the new fleet arrives. Elsewhere the current system can continue which will be mainly intercity services and far easier to manage.

    In terms of curves, once the ramp is wide and long enough it will reach, it's not as if platform gaps are 6ft wide. Having wheelchair accessible doors located behind the cabs will also narrow the gap size compared with gaps found at central doors. Raise the floor slightly to allow a ramp retract in and out or install a folding ramp. Platforms could be dipped in the loading area were required to allow a ramp operate also. It doesn't need major infrastructural changes to make it work but rather just some good planning.

    Fair enough some still may need assistance but that shouldn't act as a deterrent and rule it out. I'm sure with a bit of thought out planning a solution can be found.


  • #124
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    L1011 wrote: »
    Maynooth is meant to start first and I'd doubt they'd have another finished before it

    Why Maynooth?? I would of thought doing the Northern line first would be simpler and offer an earlier commencement date.


  • #125
    DoctorPan
    Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭DoctorPan


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Why Maynooth?? I would of thought doing the Northern line first would be simpler and offer an earlier commencement date.

    Contains the new depot which is to replace Fairview as it's hopeless undersized and underequiped for a modern depot.


  • #126
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,667 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    DoctorPan wrote: »
    Contains the new depot which is to replace Fairview as it's hopeless undersized and underequiped for a modern depot.

    Just wait for the major row that will cause.


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  • #127
    DoctorPan
    Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭DoctorPan


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Just wait for the major row that will cause.

    Oh I can't wait for it, considering the wish-list of stuff that Irish Rail is looking for from this new depot...


  • #128
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,667 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    DoctorPan wrote: »
    Oh I can't wait for it, considering the wish-list of stuff that Irish Rail is looking for from this new depot...

    Such as?

    For what it's worth I suspect Fairview will be around for 10 years if not longer.


  • #129
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    iT'S already been explained why it can't on here a few times, I used to think the same as you re: ramps. However when you account for different curves in the platform different train types and the fact that some people need physical help to mount the ramp it can't be done

    The new Stadler units for Greater Anglia have an automatic ramp that comes out from under every door to within a few cm of the platform edge. You get a brief view of them in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxz3fPKt2SU

    I don't know how they would cope with somewhere like the northbound platform at Tara St though!


  • #130
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    The new Stadler units for Greater Anglia have an automatic ramp that comes out from under every door to within a few cm of the platform edge. You get a brief view of them in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxz3fPKt2SU

    I don't know how they would cope with somewhere like the northbound platform at Tara St though!

    Those are retractable foot boards due to the streamlined body profiles, they still require traditional ramps for wheelchair users.


  • #131
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    GM228 wrote: »
    Those are retractable foot boards due to the streamlined body profiles, they still require traditional ramps for wheelchair users.

    According to Stadler and Greater Anglia they dont. They can go out 40cm I believe. That is why the are called "low floor" trains.

    Manual ramps may be required at some of the more rural request stops in Norfolk until they get the platforms raised.

    The ramps use a mix of sensors and GPS to extend them at each station.


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  • #132
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    The new Stadler units for Greater Anglia have an automatic ramp that comes out from under every door to within a few cm of the platform edge. You get a brief view of them in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxz3fPKt2SU

    I don't know how they would cope with somewhere like the northbound platform at Tara St though!

    Could they not just dip part of the platform and allow it to rest onto the the platform. IE could tender for floors to be slightly higher to avoid the need of altering platforms.


  • #133
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    DoctorPan wrote: »
    Contains the new depot which is to replace Fairview as it's hopeless undersized and underequiped for a modern depot.

    Sounds like this could potentially delay the whole project for years.

    Could they not upgrade and expand Drogheda for bi mode maintenance and use Fairview for storing 2900s and bi mode. The excess 2900s can either transfer to Inchicore or head south for Cork or Limerick regional services.


  • #134
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Could they not just dip part of the platform and allow it to rest onto the the platform. IE could tender for floors to be slightly higher to avoid the need of altering platforms.

    There is no chance of going back to requiring a step up for everyone to remove the need to manually put a ramp in place for limited uses. They still won't allow wheelchairs on without a further ramp in most cases


  • #135
    DoctorPan
    Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭DoctorPan


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Such as?

    For what it's worth I suspect Fairview will be around for 10 years if not longer.

    From what I've heard, it's to completely replace Fairview as the main DART depot and Drogheda as the main maintaince deport. Wants include a full train scanner for all units entering the depot to push maintance from reactive to proactive methods. Irish Rail very much impressed by the setup an Australian railway has using scanners to mointor trains and wants a similar version for the new DART depot. Then there's the usual wants of wheel lathes, lifting roads and the like.
    IE 222 wrote: »
    Sounds like this could potentially delay the whole project for years.

    Could they not upgrade and expand Drogheda for bi mode maintenance and use Fairview for storing 2900s and bi mode. The excess 2900s can either transfer to Inchicore or head south for Cork or Limerick regional services.

    Drogheda is to be converted to Bimodal/EMU services as well but the new Maynooth depot is to become the electric version of Laois Traincare
    The plan for the 29000s once the DARTs come online is to cascade them onto Cork services to allow for the withdrawal of the 2600s


  • #136
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,584 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    DoctorPan wrote: »
    From what I've heard, it's to completely replace Fairview as the main DART depot and Drogheda as the main maintaince deport. Wants include a full train scanner for all units entering the depot to push maintance from reactive to proactive methods. Irish Rail very much impressed by the setup an Australian railway has using scanners to mointor trains and wants a similar version for the new DART depot. Then there's the usual wants of wheel lathes, lifting roads and the like./QUOTE]

    Certainly Austria are the kind of places that Irish Rail should be basing some of their decisions on as public transport in Vienna is excellent and a far better example to follow than the UK. OBB are a First Class operator with excellent rolling stock on both commuter and Intercity routes and excellent customer service and also work really well with rolling stock manufacturers!


  • #137
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    L1011 wrote: »
    There is no chance of going back to requiring a step up for everyone to remove the need to manually put a ramp in place for limited uses. They still won't allow wheelchairs on without a further ramp in most cases

    When I say raise the floor i mean by centimetres as to clear the platform not a full on step. This is easily achievable if they put so thought into it. There various options available to do it.


  • #138
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    DoctorPan wrote: »
    From what I've heard, it's to completely replace Fairview as the main DART depot and Drogheda as the main maintaince deport. Wants include a full train scanner for all units entering the depot to push maintance from reactive to proactive methods. Irish Rail very much impressed by the setup an Australian railway has using scanners to mointor trains and wants a similar version for the new DART depot. Then there's the usual wants of wheel lathes, lifting roads and the like.



    Drogheda is to be converted to Bimodal/EMU services as well but the new Maynooth depot is to become the electric version of Laois Traincare
    The plan for the 29000s once the DARTs come online is to cascade them onto Cork services to allow for the withdrawal of the 2600s

    Yeah but I still think it quite possible and reasonably quick to get the Drogheda section up and running first without too much hassle. The fleet will be delivered in phases over a number of years so they won't necessarily need a massive depot to store trains in. 2900s for Maynooth can be stored in Fairview and maintained in Inchicore while Cork get a fleet upgrade with excess stock. A target of date of late 2024 should allow for electrification Northern line and delivery of first 100 - 150 new fleet.


  • #139
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,983 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    DoctorPan wrote: »
    From what I've heard, it's to completely replace Fairview as the main DART depot and Drogheda as the main maintaince deport. Wants include a full train scanner for all units entering the depot to push maintance from reactive to proactive methods. Irish Rail very much impressed by the setup an Australian railway has using scanners to mointor trains and wants a similar version for the new DART depot. Then there's the usual wants of wheel lathes, lifting roads and the like.



    Drogheda is to be converted to Bimodal/EMU services as well but the new Maynooth depot is to become the electric version of Laois Traincare
    The plan for the 29000s once the DARTs come online is to cascade them onto Cork services to allow for the withdrawal of the 2600s


    that is a good idea. the 29s will be a huge increase in capacity and will allow for a good frequency increase to encourage growth of the service. they will equal future proofed capacity.
    they should stick the 2600s in limerick instead of withdrawing them unless at that stage they are uneconomical to keep running. unless there is genuinely going to be enough ICRS to finally run waterford limerick and limerick-galway services.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • #140
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Why Maynooth?? I would of thought doing the Northern line first would be simpler and offer an earlier commencement date.
    IE 222 wrote: »
    Yeah but I still think it quite possible and reasonably quick to get the Drogheda section up and running first without too much hassle.

    Preliminary work on the Maynooth line is years ahead of the Drogheda line mainly because electrification all the way to Drogheda was only committed to as part of the current NDP, prior to that the only commitment was to Maynooth, the Drogheda project is actually only 3km less of electrification work anyway, but the Maynooth project will deliver an awful lot more as it includes M3 and Docklands, the Maynooth project is also the most critical of the three projects as it also deals with capacity issues in the City Centre (as well as linking the Hazelhatch electrification project to the PPT), it will see Connolly, Newcommen and Docklands re-developed, removal of Maynooth line level crossings and a new depot.


  • #141
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Could they not just dip part of the platform and allow it to rest onto the the platform. IE could tender for floors to be slightly higher to avoid the need of altering platforms.

    There should be no need. The ramps are designed to adapt to 97% of current or soon to be upgraded platforms.

    IrishRail should look at these units. The InterCity versions are very nice! Better than the IEP.

    The modular design means bits can be swapped around to suit power source etc. A train designed by people that run trains for once!


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  • #142
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    GM228 wrote: »
    Preliminary work on the Maynooth line is years ahead of the Drogheda line mainly because electrification all the way to Drogheda was only committed to as part of the current NDP, prior to that the only commitment was to Maynooth, the Drogheda project is actually only 3km less of electrification work anyway, but the Maynooth project will deliver an awful lot more as it includes M3 and Docklands, the Maynooth project is also the most critical of the three projects as it also deals with capacity issues in the City Centre (as well as linking the Hazelhatch electrification project to the PPT), it will see Connolly, Newcommen and Docklands re-developed, removal of Maynooth line level crossings and a new depot.

    I'm not discrediting the importance and benefits of the Maynooth upgrades and the sooner it happens the better. I just think they could get Drogheda completed earlier and put to use while the longer and bigger project take place. This will remove capacity issues 2 or 3 years earlier than planned seen as the UK stock hire is off the cards now.


  • #143
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    There should be no need. The ramps are designed to adapt to 97% of current or soon to be upgraded platforms.

    IrishRail should look at these units. The InterCity versions are very nice! Better than the IEP.

    The modular design means bits can be swapped around to suit power source etc. A train designed by people that run trains for once!

    Yeah they do look nice.

    Seems these ramps are a very easy solution in my eyes.


  • #144
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,584 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    IrishRail should look at these units. The InterCity versions are very nice! Better than the IEP.

    I wouldn't judge them just yet - They've cherry picked the photos that have been released so far which are not representative of the density of the seating from what I have read elsewhere, as well as taking diagonal photos of airline seats to give the impression of more room. The seats they have picked are for ultra high density layouts, with the idea that your knees go in a niche rather than having proper spacing. There is less space than an IEP.

    People who have been on the finished ones during testing say the standard airline seat (not near a wheelchair space, wall etc) are tighter than they look in the photos that have been taken at angles to give an impression of more space than there actually is. There's also some dividers under the tables in the middle to restrict everyone to only half the room under the table each, that could work if there is enough spacing, but if you get two tall people.

    That being said the Stadler Flirt is an excellent train and is doing very well in mainland Europe with many operators with better layouts than Greater Anglia have. I don't see it being used in Ireland though because the version that is being used for Greater Anglia is aimed at rural / local (755) and shorter distance intercity runs (745) so wouldn't be that great for standing as it's not kitted out for them.


  • #145
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,667 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    DoctorPan wrote: »
    From what I've heard, it's to completely replace Fairview as the main DART depot and Drogheda as the main maintaince deport. Wants include a full train scanner for all units entering the depot to push maintance from reactive to proactive methods. Irish Rail very much impressed by the setup an Australian railway has using scanners to mointor trains and wants a similar version for the new DART depot. Then there's the usual wants of wheel lathes, lifting roads and the like.

    Drogheda is to be converted to Bimodal/EMU services as well but the new Maynooth depot is to become the electric version of Laois Traincare
    The plan for the 29000s once the DARTs come online is to cascade them onto Cork services to allow for the withdrawal of the 2600s

    Suspended as much.


  • #146
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    devnull wrote: »
    I wouldn't judge them just yet - They've cherry picked the photos that have been released so far which are not representative of the density of the seating from what I have read elsewhere, as well as taking diagonal photos of airline seats to give the impression of more room. The seats they have picked are for ultra high density layouts, with the idea that your knees go in a niche rather than having proper spacing. There is less space than an IEP.

    People who have been on the finished ones during testing say the standard airline seat (not near a wheelchair space, wall etc) are tighter than they look in the photos that have been taken at angles to give an impression of more space than there actually is. There's also some dividers under the tables in the middle to restrict everyone to only half the room under the table each, that could work if there is enough spacing, but if you get two tall people.

    That being said the Stadler Flirt is an excellent train and is doing very well in mainland Europe with many operators with better layouts than Greater Anglia have. I don't see it being used in Ireland though because the version that is being used for Greater Anglia is aimed at rural / local (755) and shorter distance intercity runs (745) so wouldn't be that great for standing as it's not kitted out for them.

    There where many comments about the seats but once people were able to get inside one, all the comments seem positive.

    There are 3 versions of them. The 3 or 4 car provincial sets, the 10 car electric only InterCity sets for London-Norwich and the 10 car high density units for the Stansted Express.

    There are a load of videos from the exhibition in Berlin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNjNMoNnIQc

    I have read many complaints about the seat supports on the IEP and maybe these. If you are travelling long distances, don't get a window seat because you can't stretch your legs out!


  • #147
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,132 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    I've been on board the Stadler Flirt and it looks nice but isn't hugely practical

    Multiple floor heights inside

    Huge loss of internal space due large amount of equipment behind each cab

    Its tight inside, it UK gauge and that just kills width


  • #148
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    I've been on board the Stadler Flirt and it looks nice but isn't hugely practical

    Multiple floor heights inside

    Huge loss of internal space due large amount of equipment behind each cab

    Its tight inside, it UK gauge and that just kills width

    The layout of the Anglia Stadlers is unfortunately due to the high number of level crossing accidents in Norfolk. They are designed in so the sections can be swapped around.

    A cross between the Anglia bi-modes and the 777 for MerseyRail might suit Ireland.


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