Waterford Politics MEGATHREAD

jmcc · 19-01-2015 3:10pm

hardybuck wrote: »

The UK includes Northern Ireland though right? Which is at the centre of this issue.

This is Ireland.

Regards...jmcc

hardybuck · 19-01-2015 5:36pm

jmcc wrote: »

This is Ireland.

Regards...jmcc

The organisation was involved in the island of Ireland, i.e. both the Republic and the United Kingdom.

jmcc · 19-01-2015 6:22pm

hardybuck wrote: »

The organisation was involved in the island of Ireland, i.e. both the Republic and the United Kingdom.

Surprised that they didn't get a grant from the EU.

Regards...jmcc

hardybuck · 19-01-2015 7:15pm

jmcc wrote: »

Surprised that they didn't get a grant from the EU.

Regards...jmcc

How do you know they didn't? They might have got something out of the Good Friday Agreement though alright.

robtri · 19-01-2015 9:34pm

jmcc wrote: »

This is Ireland.

Regards...jmcc

and ireland is comprised of the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, like it or not is under british control with a devolved goverment.

robtri · 20-01-2015 9:58pm

wellboytoo wrote: »

Geographically correct politically wrong.

how??

wellboytoo · 21-01-2015 9:32am

robtri wrote: »

how??

My mistake ! I misread what you were saying

jmcc · 21-01-2015 3:15pm

robtri wrote: »

how??

Grammar problem.

Regards...jmcc

robtri · 21-01-2015 8:33pm

jmcc wrote: »

Grammar problem.

Regards...jmcc

????????????

hardybuck · 22-01-2015 12:51pm

RTE have put together an interesting database on political expenses since 2011 http://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2015/0120/674364-no-expenses-spared/

I'd a quick look at the Waterford TDs. Wages look to be identical for each, but there is a decent bit of variance in terms of expenses - which obviously will be irregular by their nature.

I don't know if it's similar in other constituencies, but in Waterford's case our Independent TD has cost more than all of his party colleagues, over €26k more expensive in one case, from the period 2011-2014. I think independents argue that they incur extra costs as they don't have the same resources as the other parties, but worth being aware of.

A quick tot of the expenses from 2011-2014:

1. Halligan - €195k approx.
2. Conway - €188k approx
3. Deasy - €171k approx.
4. Coffey - €169k approx

7upfree · 22-01-2015 2:36pm

hardybuck wrote: »

RTE have put together an interesting database on political expenses since 2011 http://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2015/0120/674364-no-expenses-spared/

I'd a quick look at the Waterford TDs. Wages look to be identical for each, but there is a decent bit of variance in terms of expenses - which obviously will be irregular by their nature.

I don't know if it's similar in other constituencies, but in Waterford's case our Independent TD has cost more than all of his party colleagues, over €26k more expensive in one case, from the period 2011-2014. I think independents argue that they incur extra costs as they don't have the same resources as the other parties, but worth being aware of.

A quick tot of the expenses from 2011-2014:

1. Halligan - €195k approx.
2. Conway - €188k approx
3. Deasy - €171k approx.
4. Coffey - €169k approx

And for all of that, what have any of them (particularly the government ones) achieved? Little or nothing, except the undermining of our hospital, the downgrading of our Council, an a bunch of reneged "promises".

Interesting to see that the usual FG cheerleaders have gone extremely quiet lately.

Particularly on the this forum.:)

hardybuck · 22-01-2015 2:54pm

7upfree wrote: »

And for all of that, what have any of them (particularly the government ones) achieved? Little or nothing, except the undermining of our hospital, the downgrading of our Council, an a bunch of reneged "promises".

Interesting to see that the usual FG cheerleaders have gone extremely quiet lately.

Particularly on the this forum.:)

What I would say in response to some of that is that although a TD is elected to represent the people of their constituency, many of them will be absorbed by national matters. Not ideal, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. You hope in that situation that a few of those crumbs fall your way.

I think people need to really consider what is a positive outcome and what they can reasonably expect from their representatives. Just because you don't see them in the newspaper generating headlines all the time doesn't mean that they're working or achieving anything. Empty vessels often make the most noise...

7upfree · 22-01-2015 8:52pm

hardybuck wrote: »

What I would say in response to some of that is that although a TD is elected to represent the people of their constituency, many of them will be absorbed by national matters. Not ideal, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. You hope in that situation that a few of those crumbs fall your way.

I think people need to really consider what is a positive outcome and what they can reasonably expect from their representatives. Just because you don't see them in the newspaper generating headlines all the time doesn't mean that they're working or achieving anything. Empty vessels often make the most noise...

They're empty alright. And making NO noise.

They have failed the people of Waterford City (in particular) miserably.

Hijpo · 23-01-2015 3:03am

hardybuck wrote: »

What I would say in response to some of that is that although a TD is elected to represent the people of their constituency, many of them will be absorbed by national matters. Not ideal, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. You hope in that situation that a few of those crumbs fall your way.

I think people need to really consider what is a positive outcome and what they can reasonably expect from their representatives. Just because you don't see them in the newspaper generating headlines all the time doesn't mean that they're working or achieving anything. Empty vessels often make the most noise...

They are there to make up the numbers for the party in power and to vote in favour of anything and everything their leaders tell them to, nothing more. Don't be naive in thinking any different.
This farce should not be classed anywhere near as being democratic, from elections to legislation.

longshanks · 23-01-2015 1:26pm

Is it true that independents can all claim the leaders allowance? That they are classed as the leader of a party of one? About 40 grand a year for that expense alone.

AdMMM · 23-01-2015 2:01pm

longshanks wrote: »

Is it true that independents can all claim the leaders allowance? That they are classed as the leader of a party of one? About 40 grand a year for that expense alone.

Technically all TDs get a leader's allowance. For TDs that are a member of a party, that allowance goes to the party (so the more TDs a party has, the more funding it gets). The money is in turn supposed to be used to research policy and support constituency activities, therefore benefiting the TD through increased presence and detailed policies.

Smiley Burnett · 24-01-2015 8:36pm

Leaders allowance for Independent TDs came about when Bertie Ahern bought the support of Healy rae and a few more independents back in 1997...what a joke!!...and john halligan has a cheek to take it!

7upfree · 25-01-2015 1:12pm

Smiley Burnett wrote: »

Leaders allowance for Independent TDs came about when Bertie Ahern bought the support of Healy rae and a few more independents back in 1997...what a joke!!...and john halligan has a cheek to take it!

Is it any difference to Enda saying that the cap of €500k on bankers pay is a constraint?

This country has become so morally corrupt it is appalling. As you say, Ahern brought it in - and Halligan is doing nothing wrong claiming it. It is the system that is in place which needs changing.

But then shouldn't EVERYTHING be changed, like:

* People who are on a "disability payment", and who can drive and own a car, automatically awarded free travel for themselves and their partners.

* Politicians claiming several pensions.

* People retiring from the Public Sector in their 50s and coming back in as contractors.

* Pension topups for academics.

* Teachers holding onto their jobs while being TDs.

* Politicians working beyond the age of 65.

* Hospital consultants saying €175k a year is "not enough".

The list is truly endless.

robtri · 25-01-2015 10:52pm

7upfree wrote: »

and Halligan is doing nothing wrong claiming it. It is the system that is in place which needs changing.

I see it differently, Halligan is doing wrong....
while its legal, its still wrong.....

this is the problem with the state of our nation, people have a I am entitled to it mentallity.... and overlook what is right and wrong.....

7upfree · 25-01-2015 11:41pm

robtri wrote: »

I see it differently, Halligan is doing wrong....
while its legal, its still wrong.....

this is the problem with the state of our nation, people have a I am entitled to it mentallity.... and overlook what is right and wrong.....

Yep. I refer you to my post above. There is that sense of "entitlement" across the board. Which is why we borrow mainly for:

1. Social Welfare.

2. Public Sector.

3. And, of course, the HSE.

With Education coming in after these.

hardybuck · 26-01-2015 12:19am

7upfree wrote: »

Yep. I refer you to my post above. There is that sense of "entitlement" across the board. Which is why we borrow mainly for:

1. Social Welfare.

2. Public Sector.

3. And, of course, the HSE.

With Education coming in after these.

Education and HSE are both public sector.

Cabaal · 26-01-2015 9:49am

7upfree wrote: »

Yep. I refer you to my post above. There is that sense of "entitlement" across the board. Which is why we borrow mainly for:

err but shouldn't TD's of any party and none be setting the example for other citizens to follow?

Just because Halligan CAN claim something doesn't mean he should,

If TD's claim less then that actually helps support the very idea of change that the same TD's could then spearhead.

Instead it seems people will claim the system needs changing but they'll happily use and abuse that same system in its current form.

hardybuck · 26-01-2015 12:59pm

Just as a comparison to another constituency to see if there was any pattern, I had a look to Tipp South up the road. Three seats, two Independent and one FG.

In terms of expenses again, the two independents were both €40k more expensive over a four year period than their party colleague.

Two constituencies - nearly enough analysis to develop a trend, but there might be one there all the same.

Max Powers · 27-01-2015 1:58pm

If you were an independent TD, would you refuse it, honestly?

longshanks · 27-01-2015 2:17pm

It's an ordinary workers wage for a whole year that they just nonchalantly claim as an expense on top of their already vastly inflated wage.
They could show some morality, decency, call it what you like, and refuse it. But no, they claim it 'because they can'.
The reason people don't trust politicians is because of that attitude and behaviour.

AdMMM · 27-01-2015 2:25pm

Max Powers wrote: »

If you were an independent TD, would you refuse it, honestly?

One of the biggest sticks that parties use to beat Independents with is they lack policies and research. You have to keep in mind that six political parties (Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, People before Profit Alliance, Sinn Féin, the Labour Party and the Socialist Party) shared €12.9 million in exchequer funding in 2013.

That's a lot of firepower that can be used to carry out research, run focus groups and generally carry out activities that will benefit the party prior to an election.

Taking Fine Gael as an example, they received almost €5m in public funding in 2013, which means that every single one of their TDs benefit from how that money is spent.

The deck has always been stacked in favour of the big parties, this concession that Bertie Ahern made in a time of desperation actually just levelled the playing field a bit.

The term "Party Leaders Allowance" obviously looks bad and the Government certainly won't change how it's named because they can use it as leverage, but if it was called "Politicial Administration Allowance" or something to that effect, there would be absolutely no issue with it at all.

hardybuck · 27-01-2015 2:30pm

AdMMM wrote: »

One of the biggest sticks that parties use to beat Independents with is they lack policies and research. You have to keep in mind that six political parties (Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, People before Profit Alliance, Sinn Féin, the Labour Party and the Socialist Party) shared €12.9 million in exchequer funding in 2013.

That's a lot of firepower that can be used to carry out research, run focus groups and generally carry out activities that will benefit the party prior to an election.

Taking Fine Gael as an example, they received almost €5m in public funding in 2013, which means that every single one of their TDs benefit from how that money is spent.

The deck has always been stacked in favour of the big parties, this concession that Bertie Ahern made in a time of desperation actually just levelled the playing field a bit.

The term "Party Leaders Allowance" obviously looks bad and the Government certainly won't change how it's named because they can use it as leverage, but if it was called "Politicial Administration Allowance" or something to that effect, there would be absolutely no issue with it at all.

But how is this funding calculated? Is it a fixed amount per member?

Can we contrast the cost of employing individual sole traders as opposed to party members?

AdMMM · 27-01-2015 3:09pm

It's not quite a fixed amount. Depends on certain thresholds and also takes into account that parties in government have additional governmental resources available to them e.g. the Government PR office, Merrion Street

Here's a report that looks into the exact issue. HERE

Full disclosure, it was a report commissioned by the technical group, but statements on how things are calculated wouldn't be subject to any perceived bias.

hardybuck · 27-01-2015 3:15pm

AdMMM wrote: »

It's not quite a fixed amount. Depends on certain thresholds and also takes into account that parties in government have additional governmental resources available to them e.g. the Government PR office, Merrion Street

Here's a report that looks into the exact issue. HERE

Full disclosure, it was a report commissioned by the technical group, but statements on how things are calculated wouldn't be subject to any perceived bias.

Thanks, will have a look over at some stage.

Just on the press office on Merrion Street, they'd work for the Departments rather than the political parties.

robtri · 27-01-2015 8:08pm

AdMMM wrote: »

One of the biggest sticks that parties use to beat Independents with is they lack policies and research. You have to keep in mind that six political parties (Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, People before Profit Alliance, Sinn Féin, the Labour Party and the Socialist Party) shared €12.9 million in exchequer funding in 2013.

That's a lot of firepower that can be used to carry out research, run focus groups and generally carry out activities that will benefit the party prior to an election.

Taking Fine Gael as an example, they received almost €5m in public funding in 2013, which means that every single one of their TDs benefit from how that money is spent.

The deck has always been stacked in favour of the big parties, this concession that Bertie Ahern made in a time of desperation actually just levelled the playing field a bit.

The term "Party Leaders Allowance" obviously looks bad and the Government certainly won't change how it's named because they can use it as leverage, but if it was called "Politicial Administration Allowance" or something to that effect, there would be absolutely no issue with it at all.

In principle it is a great system...

But in reality the money goes into the pockets of the independant TD's....

like all companies, any expense should be vouched.... instead of handed over no questions asked....

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