Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

Suckit · 12-01-2022 4:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118462250#Comment_118462250

It seems that they have made the increase profitable enough for them not to bother, whereas Scotland was a 50p increase per unit.

(I see that they make reference to 'that old chestnut' in the article)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/drug-warning-as-minimum-alcohol-pricing-starts-in-ireland-9zk0bd7nn

dxhound2005 · 12-01-2022 4:33pm

Starting from a much lower base in the UK, compared to Ireland which has the highest excise on alcohol in the EU. So 50 pence (59 cents) is a big hit.

Suckit · 12-01-2022 4:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118462316#Comment_118462316

Yes, Brexit.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118462320#Comment_118462320

All that legal stuff was cleared up later on, and the Scottish government went ahead. Ireland would want to be particularly stupid if it had been ruled illegal in Scotland. Of course this does not stop the stream of misinformation.

In UK law.

EVEN IN THE ARTICLE YOU QUOTED:

but noted that minimum pricing could be legal but would be contrary to EU law if less restrictive tax measures could be used to achieve the aim of the legislation.

Scotland could not, for example introduce a tax without it affecting businesses and having to implement a separate tax from the rest of the UK.

Suckit · 12-01-2022 4:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118462357#Comment_118462357

That is exactly the point, it was too small profit for them to ignore knowing it would impact sales, but your point? 35 percent more isn't a big hit, with the already added massive amount of excise?

dxhound2005 · 12-01-2022 4:35pm

It was all done before Brexit. And it is MUP, not taxation. Scotland could increase the MUP, as some health campaigners are already looking for

Suckit · 12-01-2022 4:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118462380#Comment_118462380

YES. BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T ADD TAX!!

Also it was dealt with in the UK, partly because of Brexit.

dxhound2005 · 12-01-2022 4:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118462395#Comment_118462395

No need to worry about tax Ireland wants to put up MUP.

Minimum price of alcohol products

11. (1) The minimum price per gram of alcohol for the purposes of this Act shall be €0.10.

(2) The minimum price of an alcohol product shall be calculated using the following formula:

A x B = C

where—

A is the minimum price per gram of alcohol,

B is the quantity in grams of alcohol contained in the alcohol product, and

C is the minimum price of the alcohol product expressed in euro and cent.

(3) Subject to subsection (4), the Minister may, from time to time, by order increase the minimum price per gram of alcohol for the purposes of this Act.

Suckit · 12-01-2022 4:43pm

I'm not sure how, but even in the articles you linked to, you seem to be skipping over the important bits.

The above post just brings it back to being illegal.

dxhound2005 · 12-01-2022 4:45pm

Are you still saying it is illegal?

ArmaniJeanss · 12-01-2022 4:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118462422#Comment_118462422

I hadn't noticed the last bit before. "The Minister may increase the price" not "The Minister may change the price".

Quite interesting that - I doubt there's another law on the books that's phrased quite that way.

dxhound2005 · 12-01-2022 4:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118462456#Comment_118462456

I'm no lawyer, but if something is specified in an Act as being a minimum, I expect that it is a minimum.

Suckit · 12-01-2022 4:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118462436#Comment_118462436

Using your links and quotes from your posts.. As it seems it might be the shortest route:

The ruling indicated that it was for the domestic courts to take a final decision on minimum pricing, but noted that minimum pricing could be legal but would be contrary to EU law if less restrictive tax measures could be used to achieve the aim of the legislation

and

It was all done before Brexit. And it is MUP, not taxation. Scotland could increase the MUP, as some health campaigners are already looking for.

and

No need to worry about tax Ireland wants to put up MUP.

I cannot quote separate posts/sections with the new layout. I bolded the important parts from your posts.

Geuze · 12-01-2022 4:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118462422#Comment_118462422

So it's not even possible for the Minister to back-track and adjust MUP down to, say 80 cent.

dxhound2005 · 12-01-2022 4:57pm

I suppose the only way to find out is for someone to sell below the minimum and have it tested in Court. The President did not refer it to the Supreme Court, so his advice must have been that it was sound legally.

ArmaniJeanss · 12-01-2022 4:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118462467#Comment_118462467

Yeah, but I'd have expected it to be phrased as 'the minister may SET the minimum price' as that's the way these things are normally done. Ministers can SET income tax rates, or VAT rates, or social welfare payments, excise rates etc. And these have sometimes gone down, not just up.

Saying it can only increase upward is pretty unusual I'd have thought. But just an observation really. It puts a double-lock in place if ever a government wants to reduce it as you have to alter this act first.

dxhound2005 · 12-01-2022 5:02pm

This is what the Minister said in a press release. I think it will need political action to abolish the Act completely, or a finding in the Courts that it is unconstitutional to make it go away.

A minimum unit price of 10c per gram of alcohol is provided for in section 11 of the Public Health (Alcohol) Act 2018. Minimum unit pricing will set a floor price beneath which alcohol cannot legally be sold and will target products that are cheap relative to their strength. The minimum price is determined by and is directly proportionate to the amount of pure alcohol in the drink.

VinLieger · 12-01-2022 5:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118462524#Comment_118462524

Yes it is sound legally under Irish law which is the only reason he would refer it to the supreme court. EU law is an entirely different matter which the President doesn't consider or advise on. It needs to be tested again by someone bringing it to the EUCJ which unfortunately no group seems inclined to as everyone involved stands to make more money from this.

Maybe in a year or twos time when the price gets continually increased and or linked to inflation some of the producers might get off their arses.

odyssey06 · 12-01-2022 6:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118462907#Comment_118462907

Except the former suppliers of own brand products to the supermarkets who may have lost contracts because of it, or individual consumers, who tend not to have deep pockets :(

dxhound2005 · 12-01-2022 6:49pm

The decision in Scotland upheld by the UK Supreme Court cleared the way for Wales. It would be pointless going to Europe again. This commentary was when the ECJ told the whiskey lobby they were leaving it to the UK courts.

https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/news/article/eu-court-ruling-on-minimum-unit-pricing-a-turning-point-in-fight-against-alcohol-related-harm

As the froth surrounding the European Court of Justice (ECJ) ruling on the Scottish minimum unit pricing (MUP) case subsides, only one conclusion is appropriate; the Court remains agnostic.

At first glance, the ruling may appear ambiguous, yet nevertheless it provides one very clear outcome: EU agriculture rules do not prevent national governments from setting a minimum price for alcohol.

After hearing extensive arguments in May on this point from the Scotch Whisky Association and four EU member states opposed to the Scottish legislation, the ECJ rejected their interventions on this point.

This opens the way for Scotland and Ireland - which, in December, announced plans to also implement MUP - to use one of the most effective policy instruments to fight alcohol-related harm.

kirk. · 12-01-2022 11:07pm

I'm an addict and this thing is a pain in the h0le

My system is that as soon as the wages hit the account most of the money is paid out electronically for mortgage insurance and sh1t and the groceries are bought for the week

The remainder is left to spend on my addiction to alcohol, not a perfect system by any means but keeps the wolves at bay

What it means so far is im spending more on alcohol and less on food

Raising the price of drugs like this will just drive the winos and the more unfortunates mental

Suckit · 12-01-2022 11:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118463237#Comment_118463237

Ireland could introduce a tax, which is one of the main reasons it goes against EU law.

Noffla, the breweries and the vintners association wouldn't have backed it at all if it was another tax. All of those backing it is probably the main reason it went through unopposed, again making it even less likely that this has anything to do with health.

https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/local-news/west-corks-slab-cans-storekeeper-22732522

Colm's wheeze caused a bit of a nationwide stir today - and got the West Cork shop owner an appearance on Joe Duffy's Liveline.

However, shortly after that, Colm got a visit from HSE officials, who advised him, he says, that the promotion was 'breaking the spirit of the law' which has been framed as a way to reduce harmful drinking.

Colm told CorkBeo tonight; "I got the visit, I was expecting it, to be honest with you".

"They said I was breaking the spirit of the law and asked me to stop - I told them, fine, I'm almost out of glasses anyhow!".

Whatever 'the spirit of the law' is supposed to mean.

dxhound2005 · 12-01-2022 11:31pm

Have a read of the link I put. I think you got taken in by the misinformation circulated following the court judgement.

Media reaction to the ruling focused on the Court’s ambivalence as to whether taxation would be more effective than MUP, rather than on the substance of the decision.

The Court stated that were raising taxes as effective as MUP, introducing the latter would be barred by the 'proportionality principle'. This led to the Scotch Whisky Association claiming victory, an error that many journalists regrettably fell for.

However, the final say on which measure should be introduced is passed back to the Scottish Court. They are seen as best-placed to judge the likely effectiveness and proportionality in relation to its objectives of reducing alcohol harm.

This is good news for health. The evidence on the effectiveness of MUP is solid and has only increased over recent years.

The greatest advantage of MUP over increased taxation is that it guarantees price changes, while higher excise duties are in practice often absorbed by producers and retailers. This is because they know equally as well as health advocates that higher prices are effective at curbing consumption.

redarmyblues · 12-01-2022 11:57pm

Some Syrians around here offer to collect and deliver your booze/messages from any supermarket in Enniskillen (80 mile run) for €30, no restrictions on size apparently.

Suckit · 13-01-2022 12:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118464787#Comment_118464787

MUP is illegal in the EU according to the single market law. If somebody was to take it to court again, and this time without it leaving EU courts, the debate would be long.

The Single Market is the main pillar of the European Union. A large part of EU legislation relates to the four basic freedoms on which the Single Market is based: free movement of goods, services, capital and people. In order for the Single Market to retain a positive influence, uniform competition rules are required. cep continuously monitors EU proposals aimed at completing the Single Market and relating to competition law.

What happens when the now lowest tier of beer pricing (almost €2) becomes affordable for the people that they are trying to make it difficult for to purchase? An MUP price hike?

How long can that go on for?

It goes against the "main pillar of the European Union". It can't be legal, it can however be debated on the grounds of health, but so can processed foods, sugar and much more. The EU couldn't agree that it is okay for one country to impose it on one (broad) product upon one section of their society.

As has been pointed out in a previous post from a previous link

The CJEU has ruled minimum pricing as an illegal restraint on trade in every case since the first one was heard in 1978.

There is a very good reason for that. To change that now would pretty much go against almost everything, especially if it could be proven that it is discriminatory in it's nature.

There are so many ways to challenge this law, it only takes somebody to go the full distance with it, with presumably very deep pockets. It may be done anyway by the EU automatically upon review.

dxhound2005 · 13-01-2022 12:30am

Five EU countries opposed it as far as they could. As this 2013 report from the BBC shows. But they lost in the courts, when the Scottish whiskey challenge failed. I don't think there are any more ways to challenge it.

Five European wine-producing nations are trying to block Scotland's plans for minimum alcohol pricing.

France, Spain, Italy, Portugal and Bulgaria have said the policy is illegal, unfair and ineffective and could have a devastating impact on the wine and spirits industry.

They argue that it breaches European free trade law by discriminating against imported alcohol products.

The Scottish government insisted minimum pricing was "perfectly legal".

The European Commission (EC) is currently considering the Scottish government's request to be granted an exemption from trade regulations to enact the minimum price law which was approved by the Scottish Parliament last year.

Of the 12 countries which have written to the Commission to express their views on the matter, only Ireland explicitly supported minimum pricing.

Copies of four legal opinions lodged with the EC, along with comments from seven other EU member states, were released to the BBC after a request under open government rules.

Italy refused permission for its opinion to be made public but the BBC has obtained it from another source.

Buffman · 13-01-2022 12:36am

https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/local-news/west-corks-slab-cans-storekeeper-22732522

The chap in Cork decided to stop his promotion after he got a 'visit' after the story went viral today. Hopefully one of the big boys takes the risk and goes to court if necessary.

Suckit · 13-01-2022 12:50am

And currently within the UK, both Wales and Scotland could still find that the law breaches ant-discrimination laws in their internal market.

It hasn't been debated or argued in the EU court properly yet, but according to the EU itself, it is illegal. Just because Ireland has gone ahead with it as the only country in the EU to do so, does not make it legal, especially if they are following Scotland's example which was redirected to British courts during the case because of Brexit.

When France, Spain, Italy, Portugal and Bulgaria were trying to block it in the EU, it didn't go the full length. It was only in the EU Court of Justice for 7 months May - December 2015 before it was sent back to Edinburgh (after EU declared it illegal), and then the following October the Scottish court found that their original decision was correct (that it was legal).

If Irish mup was taken to court, they would appear again no doubt, and the anti-discrimination law would no doubt play a large part in it, but it wouldn't be the only thing.

dxhound2005 · 13-01-2022 12:58am

Things have moved on, and the idea is now firmly planted, cheap alcohol equals damage to health. It would be a poor look for anyone, even the vested interests to go so public with their opposition. Not that I agree with you that any sort of legal challenge is possible. More likely has happened with tobacco, they will be more subtle in trying to protect their interests.

dxhound2005 · 13-01-2022 1:02am

I wasn't going to comment on the publicity stunt in Cork. But one thing is relevant. Gala would not want their name to be associated with that stunt.

Suckit · 13-01-2022 1:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118465244#Comment_118465244

Things have only moved on here, and only 10 days. The rest of Europe likely hasn't even really noticed, and if any of the mainland countries tried to implement it, the opposition that they would be met with would likely finish mup altogether.

Also, we have no idea if anyone will decide to take it to court here, or if they even need to. As mentioned, the anti-discriminatory act from the EU could kick in.

One thing is almost certain, with the EU wording and laws as they are, it can't be found legal. They may however try to push it through citing health or find a loophole, but as mentioned and at the risk of repetition even the Scottish and Welsh MUP could still be found illegal in their market, and that was already deemed lawful in their court.

Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

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