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Predicted Grades Appeals

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12467…17

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  • Options
    #92
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    You can't let everyone into whatever course they want as we do not have the resources in tertiary education to actually teach them. I don't know why this is difficult to understand. Currently up to 25% of places will now be available to Irish students that would normally go to international students. If you want a high points course this might be the best year to be going for it. But colleges can't take everyone.

    Oh but they can. If it is a matter of funding it, then the government can pony up for the year. All it takes is political will.

    Realistically, I know this will not happen. I am merely pointing out that the current situation is lose lose and a more equitable solution is available if they government funded education.


  • Options
    #93
    soso02
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 69 ✭✭soso02


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    The only equitable solution for the entire cohort is to allow students to choose and fund the courses like they have had to do in England and Scotland as a result of overinflated grades.

    This was far, far easier to do in England because students receive conditional offers. Colleges simply couldn't cope were this to happen.


  • Options
    #94
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭amacca


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    I would say it is very clearly the Department of Education and the minister at the time capitulating to pressure. Look, it was a very tough situation for everyone but there is an undercurrent in every conversation pushing blame onto tertiary education in Ireland, the worst funded and least equipped part of our education system.

    I honestly never read that into any of the comments or saw blame for the third level sector in what the poster was saying

    I didnt see it as 2nd level vs 3rd level thing i just saw it as, there is a problem the more appropriate place to solve it is at thr point of delivery......

    I suppose just saw it as that might be a more appropriate place to be the final arbiter of who gets to do or continue in X course or not....i can see how it could turn into passing the buck though tbh

    I completely take your point that third level sector not equipped to deal with massive influx of students or the work involved with deciding who goes forward at the end of first year after massive influx of numbers when they probably could barely cope with what they had in the normal course of events.

    But they would be better placed in one sense to tell little johnny he just doesnt cut the mustard at the present moment.....and little johnny would have to accept it and get what he wants through another path or put up with it.....


  • Options
    #95
    shesty
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,893 Mod ✭✭✭✭shesty


    Millionaire only not wrote: »
    How the hell do u think the leaving cert could have gone ahead! they’ll be lucky to get schools opened next month.

    If I remember correctly, they had their choice of entire school buildings, community halls, hotel conference facilities and sports facilities to use for the LC as every single thing was shut down, and the JC wasn't held.There was very, very little excuse to NOT hold the LC.As someone mentioned, they let the media rule, and it has (will) create(d) a worse mess.


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    #96
    soso02
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 69 ✭✭soso02


    shesty wrote: »
    If I remember correctly, they had their choice of entire school buildings, community halls, hotel conference facilities and sports facilities to use for the LC as every single thing was shut down, and the JC wasn't held.There was very, very little excuse to NOT hold the LC.As someone mentioned, they let the media rule, and it has (will) create(d) a worse mess.

    Think they knew all along the LC just wasn't going to happen. The SEC absolved itself of any responsibility very early on. No recrutiment campaign for supervisors etc.
    The SEC seemed to be looking for excuses not to run the exams eg. one excuse made was that were the papers to be reduced in length, they would not be comparable to previous years. And what, calculated grades are !?


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    #97
    mtoutlemonde
    Registered Users Posts: 2,120 ✭✭✭mtoutlemonde


    soso02 wrote: »
    Think they knew all along the LC just wasn't going to happen. The SEC absolved itself of any responsibility very early on. No recrutiment campaign for supervisors etc.
    The SEC seemed to be looking for excuses not to run the exams eg. one excuse made was that were the papers to be reduced in length, they would not be comparable to previous years. And what, calculated grades are !?

    Have you proof of the SEC saying of the above because I certainly didn't hear it? Also, the SEC didn't have a recruitment campaign because the application closing date was in January like every other year. I had already been reappointed as written examiner prior to lockdown.


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    #98
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    soso02 wrote: »
    Think they knew all along the LC just wasn't going to happen. The SEC absolved itself of any responsibility very early on. No recrutiment campaign for supervisors etc.
    The SEC seemed to be looking for excuses not to run the exams eg. one excuse made was that were the papers to be reduced in length, they would not be comparable to previous years. And what, calculated grades are !?

    I was appointed as an examiner as normal. Even got a sorry the exams aren't going ahead letter from them. The SEC seemed to have absolved itself as it's an exam commission and there were no exams happening unless you know otherwise or I missed something?
    amacca wrote: »
    I honestly never read that into any of the comments or saw blame for the third level sector in what the poster was saying

    I didnt see it as 2nd level vs 3rd level thing i just saw it as, there is a problem the more appropriate place to solve it is at thr point of delivery......

    I suppose just saw it as that might be a more appropriate place to be the final arbiter of who gets to do or continue in X course or not....i can see how it could turn into passing the buck though tbh

    I completely take your point that third level sector not equipped to deal with massive influx of students or the work involved with deciding who goes forward at the end of first year after massive influx of numbers when they probably could barely cope with what they had in the normal course of events.

    But they would be better placed in one sense to tell little johnny he just doesnt cut the mustard at the present moment.....and little johnny would have to accept it and get what he wants through another path or put up with it.....

    Sorry badly phrased, I didn't mean blame, more responsibility. It's all an omnishambles but I would doubt it would even be possible to recruit enough competently qualified staff into colleges, are we offering them year long contracts? It would be like the 1000 extra teachers we have waiting for jobs when we haven;t had enough teachers in my school in 4 years.

    The mess was made by the the DOE not the department of higher education. Hopefully it'll mean predicted grades are completely off the table this year.


  • Options
    #99
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    joe40 wrote: »
    I had an AS chemistry class which is the first year of A level. All the kids were strong at GCSE minimum grade B to get in.
    I had about 3 out of 13 predicted an A which I thought was reasonable that was downgraded to 1 pupil. Since the exam board had no evidence of the pupils that was purely based on the algorithm. They used my ranking but took most kids down one grade. One pupil was downgraded from a C to a U (ungraded) which was despicable. May have been a mistake but I'm still glad it was quickly reversed.

    It is very difficult with the middle of the road kids. A typical C candidate could work really hard in the last 6 weeks and get a B or also slack off and easily drop to a D or E.

    It was a horrible situation, but all predicted grades had to go through school management, as in the South, so our Principal was happy with teacher predictions.

    How college pans out is the big issue now. Lack of foreign students may free up places but will have terrible effect on funding.

    That's interesting, there was so little in the media from a teachers perspective, thanks for sharing. Did you find the student's were very upset initially? They seem like quite drastic changes.

    Hopefully the new department will be able to pull extra funding, the 170m so far is a start to keep them afloat this year. Having a stand alone department with a former inner cabinet minister might give them the clout to access some needed cash. I know of 2 university where most of the part time or non permanent staff have been told they may not have as much work next year, if they even have a job. Research scientists have been told to expect higher teaching loads.


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    #100
    soso02
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 69 ✭✭soso02


    mtoutlemonde wrote: »
    Have you proof of the SEC saying of the above because I certainly didn't hear it? Also, the SEC didn't have a recruitment campaign because the application closing date was in January like every other year. I had already been reappointed as written examiner prior to lockdown.

    Yes I do.
    "Online exams; shortened papers; fewer examinations – none of these options would have been as fair an assessment as the Calculated Grades model. They would also have been markedly/significantly different from previous Leaving Certificate examinations and from what students and their teachers are familiar with and have been preparing for in terms of structure, format and content, over the past two years.

    Changes like those would have called into question the validity of the state examinations this year."

    The attached presentation delivered by the SEC to the advisory group really tells you all you need to know. There seemed to be a lack of motivation on their part to run the exams. You would think if the SEC were serious about running the exams they would be looking for additional superintendents. You would think they would have recruited more examiners to expedite the correction process. But no, their presentation reads like I don't want to deal with this.


  • Options
    #101
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    soso02 wrote: »
    Yes I do.
    "Online exams; shortened papers; fewer examinations – none of these options would have been as fair an assessment as the Calculated Grades model. They would also have been markedly/significantly different from previous Leaving Certificate examinations and from what students and their teachers are familiar with and have been preparing for in terms of structure, format and content, over the past two years.

    Changes like those would have called into question the validity of the state examinations this year."

    The attached presentation delivered by the SEC to the advisory group really tells you all you need to know. There seemed to be a lack of motivation on their part to run the exams. You would think if the SEC were serious about running the exams they would be looking for additional superintendents. You would think they would have recruited more examiners to expedite the correction process. But no, their presentation reads like I don't want to deal with this.

    Thanks for this, hadn't seen it! I'm going to have a look through it now!!


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    #102
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    soso02 wrote: »
    Yes I do.
    "Online exams; shortened papers; fewer examinations – none of these options would have been as fair an assessment as the Calculated Grades model. They would also have been markedly/significantly different from previous Leaving Certificate examinations and from what students and their teachers are familiar with and have been preparing for in terms of structure, format and content, over the past two years.

    Changes like those would have called into question the validity of the state examinations this year."

    The attached presentation delivered by the SEC to the advisory group really tells you all you need to know. There seemed to be a lack of motivation on their part to run the exams. You would think if the SEC were serious about running the exams they would be looking for additional superintendents. You would think they would have recruited more examiners to expedite the correction process. But no, their presentation reads like I don't want to deal with this.

    The CEO position was advertised as well during the uncertainty.


  • Options
    #103
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    Thanks for this, hadn't seen it! I'm going to have a look through it now!!

    Logistically it looks like it would have been local superintendents with an external superintendent overseeing. I think that would have been the only way of doing it.

    Correcting would have been a challenge, they struggle with qualified people most years, at JC I've seen primary school teachers correcting JC science. The JC not running would certainly have freed up some correctors and supervisors.

    Your right though, the presentation is hardly overwhelming. Looks like it took an hour to put together. I think no one wanted to be in charge really so it fell to teachers. The DOE has a serious lack of leadership.


  • Options
    #104
    mtoutlemonde
    Registered Users Posts: 2,120 ✭✭✭mtoutlemonde


    soso02 wrote: »
    Yes I do.
    "Online exams; shortened papers; fewer examinations – none of these options would have been as fair an assessment as the Calculated Grades model. They would also have been markedly/significantly different from previous Leaving Certificate examinations and from what students and their teachers are familiar with and have been preparing for in terms of structure, format and content, over the past two years.

    Changes like those would have called into question the validity of the state examinations this year."

    The attached presentation delivered by the SEC to the advisory group really tells you all you need to know. There seemed to be a lack of motivation on their part to run the exams. You would think if the SEC were serious about running the exams they would be looking for additional superintendents. You would think they would have recruited more examiners to expedite the correction process. But no, their presentation reads like I don't want to deal with this.

    I had not seen that presentation but after viewing it, from my reading of it, the SEC had worked on plans to run the exams but health advice overruled that and that is stated in the first few slides.

    You don't understand how recruitment of superintendents works. Application forms are sent to schools in December with a closing date in January sometime. When the SEC receives information from schools re candidates, the SEC then assigns superintendents to those centres and letters are sent to superintendents a week before the exams. For the past few years, applications have been accepted right up to the end of the school year. There was also an advertising campaign a few years ago with colourful posters and pamphlets for staff rooms.

    The SEC are not at fault here.

    Re exams - exams or part of exams are marked leniently or stricter that is what the marking conference is for and subsequent changes to marking schemes. That happens every year.

    Re online exams - never going to happen - have a look at some of the machines in my school - some running Windows XP. Wifi another problem and who would invigilate? It might happen in the future but definitely couldn't happen in a short time frame like this year.


  • Options
    #105
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    The last option is all things considered the best option. At the end of first year, exams should dictate who continues the degree. Let the student take the risk. The French do it like that. It also stops teachers being blamed.

    How do you limit the number on the course then? This suggestion is nuts.
    Plus if you fail the year you'll have a tonne of fees to pay the next year.


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    #106
    Polka_Dot
    Registered Users Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Polka_Dot


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    Universities and colleges are partially, sometimes largely, privately funded through grants. Academics also have their own work to do outside of the work of supervising and lecturing. Would you like Kingston Mills to stop working on rapid antibody testing so he can lecture 5 times as many students? Or Luke O Neill can stop supervising his labs works on cytokine storms so he can lecture a few hundred students, only 100 of which probably have the ability to be there. I don't think you understand the funding structures or practical infrastructural difficulties that you "solution" would cause. This mess had absolutely nothing to do with our third level institutes.

    Funnily enough I recall Luke O'Neill saying pretty much that in one of our first year biology lectures :pac:


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    #107
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    Treppen wrote: »
    How do you limit the number on the course then? This suggestion is nuts.
    Plus if you fail the year you'll have a tonne of fees to pay the next year.

    As stated, I know the proposition is not realistic in Ireland because the government has decided education doesn't matter. However, making students really consider their course choice is not bad thing. Self selection when you are aware of the pitfalls should focus minds a bit more. More focused first year college students benefits everyone as well.


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    #108
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    As stated, I know the proposition is not realistic in Ireland because the government has decided education doesn't matter. However, making students really consider their course choice is not bad thing. Self selection when you are aware of the pitfalls should focus minds a bit more. More focused first year college students benefits everyone as well.

    I'm still not sure about 'focusing their minds' reason. So if you had 50 students typically studying medicine, how do you physically and financially accommodate 500 into the same year group!!!


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    #109
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    Treppen wrote: »
    I'm still not sure about 'focusing their minds' reason. So if you had 50 students typically studying medicine, how do you physically and financially accommodate 500 into the same year group!!!

    They will be online for the time being anyway and it is pre-med. Exams at the end of the year dictates their movement onwards. Large general entry courses are not uncommon in other countries.


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    #110
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    They will be online for the time being anyway and it is pre-med. Exams at the end of the year dictates their movement onwards. Large general entry courses are not uncommon in other countries.

    Premed isnt done in all the colleges. Trinity doesn't do it.

    Its such a terrible, impractical, impossible idea. What happens to the hundreds or thousands who don't continue on after the first year exams?


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    #111
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    Premed isnt done in all the colleges. Trinity doesn't do it.

    Its such a terrible, impractical, impossible idea. What happens to the hundreds or thousands who don't continue on after the first year exams?

    The course could be general entry so they can apply for another course at the end of first year. Obviously the idea is not perfect. It requires huge amounts of money and is utopian.


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    #112
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    The Leaving Certificate is vital for a healthy second level system. However, it has been corrupted by the college entry system. 30% is now considered a pass because it can accrue points. Student decide to "drop" to OL in a subject like English or Irish so that they can stumble their way to a H7 in maths whilst struggling to write a coherent essay which they need to do in college.

    Students doing "exam papers" for half of sixth year is not preparing them for anything in life except an exam. I am a huge supporter of the LC but college entry should be left to colleges and it should be funded properly.

    In a country where who you know frequently trumps knowledge, ability, education or experience, the CAO is a great leveller. The fallout from golf gate the other night is enough to know that. The CAO might be a blunt instrument but the student with ability that is from the poorest, most deprived background can get a place on a course alongside the student with all the resources available to them.

    Our colleges don't have the resources to have a free for all entry to college, they're not set up for that and don't receive enough funding to support that model. I'm not talking government supports, but money to build extra labs and lecture halls to accommodate students. I went to UL and it's a fine college and it has a fantastic campus - but a lot of it was built with money donated by rich Americans like Chuck Feeney.

    There are already plenty of students who get into large general courses such as General Science and don't survive first year. With the way Ireland is there is a huge emphasis placed on the prestige courses such as Medicine, Dentistry and Pharmacy. If there was a free for all the first year entry for those would be massive, colleges would still have a cut off for second year in line with their current numbers and the attrition rate would be massive. I'm not sure what purpose that would serve having hundreds of students fail out of medicine in first year, not because they're not bright, but because they didn't make the top 50/100 etc so didn't make it to second year. They are the same students who didn't get the points for it currently so they move into some area of science, and if they really want it later on they can go the post grad route.

    It would also spell serious trouble for our ITs as third level institutions as there would be an overwhelming shift towards applications to universities for courses outside of some specialist courses which the ITs offer.

    On the H7 thing, it was never intended as it's panned out, but it was set up to acknowledge that students who got an E in HL Maths often had a solid LC and had the points for a course but missed out because of failing maths. Had they dropped to OL on the day they would have passed and would have got their course. It has meant that some students who are not able for HL are trying the HL paper and getting a H8, but some students just cannot be told that HL is beyond them.


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    #113
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    The course could be general entry so they can apply for another course at the end of first year. Obviously the idea is not perfect. It requires huge amounts of money and is utopian.

    Applying for another course at the end of the year means they pay college fees the following year. WIth a registration fee of 3k and a course fee of at least 7k this would put college beyond a lot of students. It would make college in this country more elitist if anything else. A lot would drop out and never go back.

    Your opinion isn't all that consistent. You're saying that it would require huge amounts of money and is utopian, yet a few posts back you were saying that it could work and it's only a lack of political will that is stopping it. Which is it?


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    #114
    soso02
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 69 ✭✭soso02


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    Does anyone know who actually did the analysis? Since they announced I've been keeping an eye out but haven't seen anything. I can't see anyone in the Department being capable of this kind of statistical analysis or writing an algorithm so I assume an outside agency was contracted? The SEC might have been able to just about do it but they rightly washed their hands of the process

    Polymetrika International Inc. have been contracted by the Department to assist in the development of the Calculated Grades model. Data shared with Polymetrika will be in relation to a candidate’s estimated marks received by the Department from that candidates school for the purposes of the national standardisation phase.


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    #115
    soso02
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 69 ✭✭soso02


    Just on the hotly contested courses like medicine, basing CAO offers off HPAT results solely ?

    Provided the department can ensure DEIS schools weren't disproportionately downgraded, we might be spared of the furore seen in the UK. But I wouldn't hold my breath.


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    #116
    soso02
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 69 ✭✭soso02


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    The CAO might be a blunt instrument but the student with ability that is from the poorest, most deprived background can get a place on a course alongside the student with all the resources available to them.

    If disadvantaged students are in competiton with one another (through HEAR), then I don't see any problem in the department downgrading students to keep results comparable to previous years.

    Another posters suggestion to allow this years results to be used only for 2020 CAO would be fairer to future LC students.

    It isn't very fair some students will this year be going into a course with absolutely no intention of finishing it.


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    #117
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    soso02 wrote: »
    Polymetrika International Inc. have been contracted by the Department to assist in the development of the Calculated Grades model. Data shared with Polymetrika will be in relation to a candidate’s estimated marks received by the Department from that candidates school for the purposes of the national standardisation phase.

    Thank you so much for this. It's been driving me mad, can I ask how you found this out?


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    #118
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭Treppen


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    Thank you so much for this. It's been driving me mad, can I ask how you found this out?

    Privacy Notice


    https://assets.gov.ie/74727/ad034a1c-e172-4f63-9d38-8e9f4ebd542f.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwis8fOytLHrAhXmURUIHZssDegQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0NDIt-t_D6cXdvi_2Wgrmn

    They were involved with PISA testing.

    I must take a trip over, my aunty had a niece who did the plumbing for the company


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    #119
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    soso02 wrote: »
    If disadvantaged students are in competiton with one another (through HEAR), then I don't see any problem in the department downgrading students to keep results comparable to previous years.

    Another posters suggestion to allow this years results to be used only for 2020 CAO would be fairer to future LC students.

    It isn't very fair some students will this year be going into a course with absolutely no intention of finishing it.


    I said nothing about downgrading? I was replying to the suggestion that college should be a free for all where all students are admitted to the course of their choice this year.


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    #120
    soso02
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 69 ✭✭soso02


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    I said nothing about downgrading? I was replying to the suggestion that college should be a free for all where all students are admitted to the course of their choice this year.

    My point was that the exitence of access routes like the HEAR scheme might mitigate the effects the algorithim might have on high performing students in disadvantaged schools.
    Allowing a 20/30 point reduction for each course might be more appropriate.


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    #121
    soso02
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 69 ✭✭soso02


    Treppen wrote: »
    Privacy Notice


    https://assets.gov.ie/74727/ad034a1c-e172-4f63-9d38-8e9f4ebd542f.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwis8fOytLHrAhXmURUIHZssDegQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0NDIt-t_D6cXdvi_2Wgrmn

    They were involved with PISA testing.

    I must take a trip over, my aunty had a niece who did the plumbing for the company

    It's disappointing the expertise of the SEC wasn't utilised.

    Home-schooled students won't have their results subject to standardisation. This furthers the case to completely abandon standardisation.

    I would have thought the gender profiling element of the standradisation process falls foul of the equal status act ??? Discrimination on the gender ground..another court case no doubt.


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