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24-09-2020, 18:18   #556
Wanderer78
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Yes it gets more complex with every human intervention but if they stood back and let market sort it out it would be an absolute disaster. I suppose it is is a case of the lesser of two evils.
humans created this mess, and we re gonna have to clean it up, eventually, hopefully the planet is capable of supporting us at that stage. its disturbing we re still holding onto this, the market knows best nonsense, it really is disturbing! i do think we re painfully moving into another form of capitalism, lets hope we dont end this one with a bang, like the last time!
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24-09-2020, 19:23   #557
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Originally Posted by Wanderer78 View Post
humans created this mess, and we re gonna have to clean it up, eventually, hopefully the planet is capable of supporting us at that stage. its disturbing we re still holding onto this, the market knows best nonsense, it really is disturbing! i do think we re painfully moving into another form of capitalism, lets hope we dont end this one with a bang, like the last time!
Like it or not what real alternative is there. As long as people want to have more than the other person there will always be market forces at play. As I said before it’s all boils down to greed and fear.
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24-09-2020, 19:53   #558
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Like it or not what real alternative is there. As long as people want to have more than the other person there will always be market forces at play. As I said before it’s all boils down to greed and fear.
i think we re slowly working on alternatives, i particularly like the term, 'progressive capitalism', even though i know nobody really knows what that means, or how we re gonna get to it, but at the moment, it does seem like markets will play a critical role, but we ll also have to accept, markets cant actually truly provide us with all our needs. again, id somewhat disagree that it all boils down to greed and fear, its just humans being humans
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24-09-2020, 20:46   #559
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i think we re slowly working on alternatives, i particularly like the term, 'progressive capitalism', even though i know nobody really knows what that means, or how we re gonna get to it, but at the moment, it does seem like markets will play a critical role, but we ll also have to accept, markets cant actually truly provide us with all our needs. again, id somewhat disagree that it all boils down to greed and fear, its just humans being humans
Isn’t that what exists in Ireland.

Unlike the UK or America 99% of kids all get the same education. The private school market is tiny in comparison and university places are based on a level playing field and not what school you attended.

Health care available to all unlike America and gov policy giving incentives for greener more sustainable outcomes.

In America if you are down on your luck you are ****ed as very little gov support here we bend over backwards to help in comparison.

Markets are there to provide incentive and opportunity without what jobs would be in Ireland? We would all have to immigrate again to find opportunities.

Yes we could do better but that comes with time
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26-09-2020, 07:32   #560
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Isn’t that what exists in Ireland.
No, I disagree, yes I will agree though that there is better safety nets here, compared to countries such as the us and the uk, but those safely nets have been undermined for the last few decades, particularly throughout the so called neoliberal/neoclassical era.

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Unlike the UK or America 99% of kids all get the same education. The private school market is tiny in comparison and university places are based on a level playing field and not what school you attended.
Yes, the majority of kids do get a similar education here, but our system truly is designed for a particular type of mind, and if you don't have that type of mind, you ll probably find yourself in big trouble very quickly, and your issues may never be resolved, within the system, which leads to complications for the remainder of your life. I will also agree, our educational system rewards those with certain types of brains, and punishes those that don't. Those that are made to feel frankly stupid within our system, maybe left with very serious complexities after education, which can lead to extremely complex problems for life.

Our educational system is far from a level playing field, many are disadvantaged within it, as discussed. Covid is revealing yet again, how out of date our system is, but sadly, very little will probably change. There's also plenty of evidence to show inequalities are still growing in our society, including from an educational perspective, those from more affluent backgrounds, generally gain access more so of the more prestigious institutions in the country, but yes, more and more citizens overall have been gaining access to third level, presenting a paradox.

Our educational system is also far from free, most parents will tell you this, costs generally increase as one moves through the system, and costs can spiral entering third level, this largely on living costs, again, this adding to the growing inequality issues.

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Health care available to all unlike America and gov policy giving incentives for greener more sustainable outcomes.
Again, we have a similarly developing issue here, but not as serious, compared to the us, our public health care system is under treat, from itself and external forces, we re all aware of the growing issues here, this is a very common outcome, particularly when such political and economic ideologies are introduced, public services basically become a sh1t show, and start devouring themselves.


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In America if you are down on your luck you are ****ed as very little gov support here we bend over backwards to help in comparison.
Again, this is actually another myth, people should truly spend time with the lower classes, something extremely disturbing is occurring amongst them, extremely complex and frankly dangerous psychological issues are developing amongst them, this is truly dangerous for all citizens, and you may forget about professional help, it effectively doesn't exist in the public sector. You ll find, if you need psychological help in this country, you might be better off going private, as I have done in the past. I have also availed of publically funded mental health services, which have been fantastic, but I had to be a student to gain access , again, not all that need this help, can get access to this, as many simply have been unable to obtain the qualifications to enter third level, as discussed. Our growing housing/accommodation and health care issues are more signs of serious growing problems, which affect everyone, but more so, the lower classes. Yes I know, many get a medical card, but if the services truly required, don't truly exist, you ll find that card is truly just a lump of plastic, that's probably better used cutting up cocaine, or some other substances

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Originally Posted by Timing belt
Markets are there to provide incentive and opportunity without what jobs would be in Ireland? We would all have to immigrate again to find opportunities.
Yup, markets are critical, but our so called free market, is far from free, it's truly about monopolisation and rent seeking, particularly by plutocratic interests, and there's nothing free about that!

Immigration is a fantastic option for people, but we ve moved on from our dark past, we re an open economy now, doing so much better in many ways, we should be proud of ourselves for this achievement, yes I know, there are paradoxes here to, the world is a complex place.


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Originally Posted by Timing belt
Yes we could do better but that comes with time
...and we re quickly running out of time to try resolve many of these issues....
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28-09-2020, 11:57   #561
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Good rebound in retail sales, published today.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpub...dexaugust2020/


Both volumes and value are above last year's figures.

Does this suggest Q3 will see GDP growth?

So the recession will have been six months long?
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28-09-2020, 12:07   #562
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Good rebound in retail sales, published today.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpub...dexaugust2020/


Both volumes and value are above last year's figures.

Does this suggest Q3 will see GDP growth?

So the recession will have been six months long?
or did introducing policies such as increasing covid payments, help in this rebound, and will the decrease in these payments, lead to a decrease in that rebound?
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28-09-2020, 13:27   #563
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Originally Posted by Geuze View Post
Good rebound in retail sales, published today.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpub...dexaugust2020/


Both volumes and value are above last year's figures.

Does this suggest Q3 will see GDP growth?

So the recession will have been six months long?

The workers that kept working from home have an increased disposable income as they no longer have transport costs, lunches, coffees etc. On top of this there is a saving on childcare costs. Bank deposits grew during the same period which suggests not all disposable income was spent.

People that were luck enough not to be directly impacted financially by covid did well during this period but over the next few months may be impacted as businesses tighten there belt. It takes up to 1 year for the effect of covid to be felt fully by the wider economy as it takes time to build new business cases, work with unions etc. Before a restructuring can take place.
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28-09-2020, 13:33   #564
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The workers that kept working from home have an increased disposable income as they no longer have transport costs, lunches, coffees etc. On top of this there is a saving on childcare costs. Bank deposits grew during the same period which suggests not all disposable income was spent.

People that were luck enough not to be directly impacted financially by covid did well during this period but over the next few months may be impacted as businesses tighten there belt. It takes up to 1 year for the effect of covid to be felt fully by the wider economy as it takes time to build new business cases, work with unions etc. Before a restructuring can take place.
...and theres only so much belt tightening that can be done, before the economy collapses on itself, people increase savings for a reason, during downturns, and our government is defaulting to its hardwired economic conservatism, this may not work, they could be playing with fire!
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28-09-2020, 13:36   #565
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No, I disagree, yes I will agree though that there is better safety nets here, compared to countries such as the us and the uk, but those safely nets have been undermined for the last few decades, particularly throughout the so called neoliberal/neoclassical era.
Totally incorrect. Even in the worst depression since the Wall Street crash taxes were increased dramatically but welfare wasn't touched. If anything we have an extremely socialist government in place at the moment. In fact Ireland has always protected people on welfare and punished those who work. Allowances for all sorts of things that working people don't get.

When they cut welfare rates to their UK equivalents then you might have a point.
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28-09-2020, 13:39   #566
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Totally incorrect. Even in the worst depression since the Wall Street crash taxes were increased dramatically but welfare wasn't touched. If anything we have an extremely socialist government in place at the moment. In fact Ireland has always protected people on welfare and punished those who work. Allowances for all sorts of things that working people don't get.

When they cut welfare rates to their UK equivalents then you might have a point.
...another myth, which is clearly showing in our housing and health care sectors!

socialist government!

...by any chance are the depths of welfare cuts in the uk, related to their current situation?
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28-09-2020, 13:40   #567
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All welfare rates except pension were cut twice during the Great Recession in Ireland, 2009-2012.
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28-09-2020, 13:54   #568
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...and theres only so much belt tightening that can be done, before the economy collapses on itself, people increase savings for a reason, during downturns, and our government is defaulting to its hardwired economic conservatism, this may not work, they could be playing with fire!
What do you suggest should happen?
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28-09-2020, 13:56   #569
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What do you suggest should happen?
reinstate full covid payments, and quickly, or we re probably gonna be dealing with a much bigger problem in 21
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28-09-2020, 14:05   #570
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reinstate full covid payments, and quickly, or we re probably gonna be dealing with a much bigger problem in 21
The country can’t afford to do that and there is no guarantee that the jobs will be there in 2021 or that by then we are not in the same situation as now.
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