Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

TV's with MPEG4 DTT decoder

1…3435373940…60

Comments

  • #1082
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The Cush wrote: »
    Finland, Sweden and Italy will also use DVB-T2 for HD,

    We are so delayed that we didn't roll out DVB-T MPEG2, which is a silver lining in cloud.
    But also don't forget folks, that while DVB-T2 is a good choice today, that is nearly 2 years late.
    There was supposed to be finalised the spec in 2007, then in 2008 for 90% roll-out by December 2009! DVB-T2 was only on Trials then.
    Only the doctrinaire clinging to the idea of Pay DTT prevent DTT rollout in 2000 and then later by early 2008 then later (when no time limit on Boxer/Onevision) the roll out by 2009 had not happened.

    No-one then wanted to change the spec when everything running so much behind hand. Didn't first public TX of DVB-T2 only December 2009 and setboxes only available this year.

    Now if there had been another year of pointless negotiations and posturing and RTE NL hadn't taken the Government at their word in 2007/2008 and went and spent nearly €40M on gear for PSB and Pay TV Mux, we would be looking at DVB-T2 + MPEG4.

    Plenty of the newer rollouts are using DVB-T + MPEG4 for HD.
    Virtually all the original DVB-T + MPEG2 will go for DVB-T2 + MPEG4 to add HD.
    People even further behind than us that are having HD, will have DVB-T2 + MPEG4 from the start.

    So given the Stupid timescale and withering about, DVB-T + MPEG4 was best compromise.
    Also DVB-T2 + MPEG4 + AAC boxes will work (and fully probably if MHEG5).
    We don't have much Indigenous PayTV (Setanta + TV3e?) or complete 4 channel analogue UHF to run so the extra spectrum saving of DVB-T2 isn't important. We don't in fact even have Pay TV operator on DTT as some other countries do.

    In the extremely unlikely event of payTV happening on DTT it could use DVB-T2 on its Multiplexes and they can supply a free set-box with card.

    So I don't see any problem at all with DVB-T + MPEG4 + AAC
    MHEG5 is a reasonable Middleware choice as UK use it. The only viable alternative is MHP.


  • #1083
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    The Cush wrote: »
    Finland, Sweden and Italy will also use DVB-T2 for HD, some other countries are running trials - almost all are DVB-T/MPEG-2 for SD.

    Indeed (I knew that but didnt want to confuse matters). I'd previously posted the Digitag list which is the latest list I have of who is doing what. And Watty is right, everything is about timing. At least by not being an early adopter we dont have the problem of double DSO ! A lot of the early pioneers are stuck with MPEG2 and it may suit them not to do anything until well after 2012.

    It is a very simplistic view to take that version 2 is better than version 1 of anything. Dont forget the main reason that the UK is adopting this is that they have capacity problems due to its number of stations and its use of legacy lossy inefficient codec MPEG2 and the wish to carry HD content. So its a UK solution to a UK problem.

    The majority of countries in Europe who have been tresting DTT in the mid noughties have adopted DVB-T and MPEG4.

    We wont have capacity probolems running MPEG4 SD and HD channels on DVB-T. People think they are being swindled by not adopting DVB-T2, but its only advantage is more efficient use of bandwidth for getting more stations on a mux. There is no quality increase for Ireland in adopting dvb-t2.



    124816.bmp


  • #1084
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    STB wrote: »

    We wont have capacity problems running MPEG4 SD and HD channels on DVB-T. People think they are being swindled by not adopting DVB-T2, but its only advantage is more efficient use of bandwidth for getting more stations on a mux. There is no quality increase for Ireland in adopting dvb-t2.

    Beautifully and clearly put. Also absolutely nothing stopping people using UK DVB-T2 HD boxes, Probably*.

    (* It should be OK and UK DVB-T2 boxes tested seem OK. Will any get dual Freeview HD + Saorview logo? Advantage in N.I and 10% of IRL market).


  • #1085
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,059 ✭✭✭championc


    watty wrote: »
    Beautifully and clearly put. Also absolutely nothing stopping people using UK DVB-T2 HD boxes, Probably*.

    (* It should be OK and UK DVB-T2 boxes tested seem OK. Will any get dual Freeview HD + Saorview logo? Advantage in N.I and 10% of IRL market).

    Although from another thread, it would seem that UK Panasonic TV's (or more specifically the G20B) will possibly have issues with the ServiceType coding - see STB's posting http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67975019&postcount=16


  • #1086
    John Dough
    Registered Users Posts: 347 ✭✭John Dough


    STB wrote: »
    WRONG, WRONG AND WRONG.

    John Dough you have been posting around here long enough to have a grasp of what is going on. I am shocked!

    Jeez. Tell me you understand what basic certification branding is for various countries! TNT HD is the certification for France.

    And that nonsense about dvb-t2 being the HD standard for Europe - WHERE did you pick that up ?????

    EACH COUNTRY has adopted their OWN PLATFORM and SPEC!!

    The majority of country WILL use DVB-T for MPEG4 HD! ONLY the UK use DVB-T2 for HD.

    Tell me you understand this.

    Keep your knickers on mate!!

    It is all on the E.U. website Try Googling!!!


  • Advertisement
  • #1087
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,476 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    John Dough wrote: »
    It is all on the E.U. website Try Googling!!!

    Same easy answer every time.

    When you post a statement as fact at least back it up with a link and don't expect others to waste their time searching for something that doesn't exist.

    The closest the EU have come to DVB-T2 is recommending that spectrum efficient standards (incl. MPEG-4 with DVB-T) to be used in the EU so that the Digital Dividend can be achieved in the shortest time possible. It is not mandated and each country will decide in their own best economic and industry interests.


  • #1088
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    John Dough wrote: »
    Keep your knickers on mate!!

    It is all on the E.U. website Try Googling!!!

    Me knickers are on pal.

    I know what I am talking about John Dough.

    My suggestion is you stop gooooogling! :)


  • #1089
    reslfj
    Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭reslfj


    The Cush wrote: »
    The closest the EU have come to DVB-T2 is recommending that spectrum efficient standards (incl. MPEG-4 with DVB-T) to be used in the EU so that the Digital Dividend can be achieved in the shortest time possible.

    The EU consultation asked among other things if MPEG-4 and/or DVB-T2 should be required in STB/IDTV's.
    Consultation document 2009-09-04


    The EU concluded that the recommendations should focus on early DSO (before 2012 if possible) and on harmonised DD - i.e. clearing the 800 MHz band.
    Council (of EU ministers) conclusions.


    MPEG-4 and DVB-T2 were not included as they were believed to be implemented rather soon anyway.

    The DD and the 800 MHz band is not a EU 'thing', it is an ITU/WRC07-WRC11/CEPT plan that the EU is recommending.


    Lars :)


  • #1090
    reslfj
    Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭reslfj


    STB wrote: »
    It is a very simplistic view to take that version 2 is better than version 1 of anything.
    We wont have capacity probolems running MPEG4 SD and HD channels on DVB-T. People think they are being swindled by not adopting DVB-T2, but its only advantage is more efficient use of bandwidth for getting more stations on a mux. There is no quality increase for Ireland in adopting dvb-t2.

    I may agree - in view og the current financial situation - that DVB-T/MPEG-4 is OK for Irland - at least for now.

    But DVB-T2 has huge quality benefits compared to DVB-T. There are very many features within DVB-T2 that makes the signal much more robust - even at the higher bit-rates.



    Let me mention a few:
    • 10+ dB higher impulse robustness - (32k mode and/or deep time-interleave)
    • Indirect signals (e.g. indoor-aerials)- Rayleigh channels - have lower C/N requirements - ('rotated constellations' 'bit interleave' 'frequency interleave')
    • 0 dB echo robustness is much higher - not least for the higher coderates - ('rotated constellations' 'bit interleave' 'frequency interleave')
    • PAPR reduction - potential savings in power and TX-equipment.
    • Country wide SFN is possible with DVB-T2, but not with DVB-T.
    Watty wrote:
    Also DVB-T2 + MPEG4 + AAC boxes will work (and fully probably if MHEG5).
    And may well be the closest thing to 'futureproof' there is.


    Lars :)


  • #1091
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,476 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    reslfj wrote: »
    The EU consultation asked among other things if MPEG-4 and/or DVB-T2 should be required in STB/IDTV's.
    Consultation document 2009-09-04


    The EU concluded that the recommendations should focus on early DSO (before 2012 if possible) and on harmonised DD - i.e. clearing the 800 MHz band.
    Council (of EU ministers) conclusions.


    MPEG-4 and DVB-T2 were not included as they were believed to be implemented rather soon anyway.

    The DD and the 800 MHz band is not a EU 'thing', it is an ITU/WRC07-WRC11/CEPT plan that the EU is recommending.


    Lars :)

    Yes, thanks reslfj. I knew that but was keeping it as simple as possible in reply to John Dough who said "'cos DVB-T2 will be the HD standard for the E.U. countries" and as we both know DVB-T2 has not been mandated by the EU as the HDTV standard in the EU countries and is for each country to decide its own standard, which could be DVB-T2 or DVB-T together with MPEG-4. Ireland as you can see from recent posts started DVB-T/MPEG-4 HD video tests yesterday.

    We discussed this very recently if you remember and John Dough was there too.


  • Advertisement
  • #1092
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    That's why the likely compromise is that if payTV EVER happens on DTT, it can use DVB-T2 on its Multiplexes and supply DVB-T2 PayTV boxes.


  • #1093
    reslfj
    Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭reslfj


    The Cush wrote: »
    We discussed this very recently if you remember and John Dough was there too.

    Sure, but then I only stated the facts - this time I have linked to the EU papers.

    You should note that this EU consultation process was a year ago and much have happend on the MPEG-4 front and even more with DVB-T2.

    I have just heard from Teracom (Boxer) in Sweden, that they - even though T2 will not be mandatory before 2012 (15 month) in the Nordig spec., - expect the prices of all DTT devices with or without DVB-T2 to be almost identical within a few months - except for very low cost FTA STB's.

    Lars :)


  • #1094
    reslfj
    Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭reslfj


    watty wrote: »
    ....if payTV EVER happens on DTT ...

    Boxertv.dk do not have a lot of customers - not yet at least - and we do not have access to any free satellite channels (in our own language). I think pay-DTT will be very difficult in ROI.
    watty wrote: »
    ... it can use DVB-T2 on its Multiplexes and supply DVB-T2 PayTV boxes.

    Without a doubt. A 'free' STB with a pay-DTT subscribtion most surely will be a DVB-T2 STB.

    Where will the capacity for the BBC channels (MoU) come from ? BBC-1 will be in HD by year end.

    Lars :)


  • #1095
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,476 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    reslfj wrote: »
    expect the prices of all DTT devices with or without DVB-T2 to be almost identical within a few months - except for very low cost FTA STB's.

    Lars :)
    reslfj wrote: »
    Without a doubt. A 'free' STB with a pay-DTT subscribtion most surely will be a DVB-T2 STB.

    Where will the capacity for the BBC channels (MoU) come from ? BBC-1 will be in HD by year end.

    Lars :)

    First off the BBC channels in relation to the MoU is a dead duck because of the failed commercial DTT process. RTÉ has said that these channels will not be part of the PSB muxes and that they are available on freesat or Sky if you wish to pay. BBC1 HD will not replace BBC 1 SD, it will be a simulcast, probably until the UK decides to migrate all muxes to DVB-T2.

    By the end of 2012 with ASO happening on both sides of the border and the different DTT standards a DVB-T2 freeview-HD receiver will be necessary if you want to watch the NI freeview-HD overspill. I would expect these Saorview certified DVB-T2 compatible receivers to be available long before that.
    reslfj wrote: »
    Sure, but then I only stated the facts - this time I have linked to the EU papers.

    I was going to leave that for John Dough to do, he's big into googling the EU websites.


  • #1096
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    An MOU is no commitment to spend money or indeed really do anything more that say we won't try and block stuff...


  • #1097
    Machinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 732 ✭✭✭Machinehead


    Quick Pop Quiz: Are DVB-T2 & DVB-T (MPEG4-AVC [H.264]) one in the same?


  • #1098
    copacetic
    Subscribers Posts: 16,558 ✭✭✭✭copacetic


    no


  • #1099
    Machinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 732 ✭✭✭Machinehead


    copacetic wrote: »
    no

    Crap - I thought my Panny D25L was future proofed. First no MHEG5, now no DVD-T2.frown.gif.


  • #1100
    copacetic
    Subscribers Posts: 16,558 ✭✭✭✭copacetic


    it's extremely unlikey you'll miss not having DVB-T2 in Ireland for the lifetime of your TV set.


  • #1101
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    reslfj wrote: »
    Boxertv.dk do not have a lot of customers - not yet at least - and we do not have access to any free satellite channels (in our own language). I think pay-DTT will be very difficult in ROI.

    Without a doubt. A 'free' STB with a pay-DTT subscribtion most surely will be a DVB-T2 STB.

    Where will the capacity for the BBC channels (MoU) come from ? BBC-1 will be in HD by year end.

    Lars :)

    Pay DTT outside of just a Top up TV Sports channels was always going to be a non runner.

    Most UK DVB-T2 products available in Ireland are DBook spec.

    The Teracom document referred to in this thread do not take in to account the add ons Ireland has made to Nordig for our requirements but as you can see there are there are differences alone with Nordig and UK dvb-t2 spec. Our nearest neighbour would be the source of such grey boxes/Tvs.

    Anyhow any approved products or ROI will receive "Saorview" certification and would not be dvb-t2 off the shelf from the UK unless conforming with RTE spec. As a grey box they may well work but given what I have seen defined in previous UK Dbook firmware it can not be relied on as manufacturers can take very narrow views on spec.

    Back to manufacturing standards which is a separate issue. So whilst it would be nice to have a standardisation to cover all of Europe specs I cant see it being implemented any day soon and even then there will be a lead in time (first of all to allow the products become affordable and secondly to allow the old legacy TVs have their allowable shelf life). And in this regard the biggest bugbear is the early adopters of DTT (the swiss etc of this world). Nearly all of the early adopters broadcast in MPEG2 including our neighbours in GB who still broadcast in MPEG2 for their SD stations. Big problem is warehouses full of MPEG2 products for those early adopter markets. Certainly the manufacturers will be reluctant to just dump them overnight (I wish they would!!!). Given 2012 as ASO/DSO, conservatively that could take up to 10 years for MPEG2 only IDTVs to die (and that is assuming no further such manufacturing of MPEG2 takes place). CI+ standardisation will be a big help to where you are going with this.

    Where will additional capacity come from you asked. RTE NL are not confined to 1 mux. They will be using a second mux which may be up and running by April 2010. DVB-T platform will be used or a long time to come over here for a long time to come.
    watty wrote: »
    An MOU is no commitment to spend money or indeed really do anything more that say we won't try and block stuff...

    People seem to presume that any such implementation of MOU carried stations would require a change in the broadcast platform adopted by Ireland. Why ?


  • Advertisement
  • #1102
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Machinehead wrote: »
    Crap - I thought my Panny D25L was future proofed. First no MHEG5, now no DVD-T2.frown.gif.

    Ireland use DVB-T not DVB-T2. You will be fine.

    You are well within your rights to ask Panasonic for a firmware update for Irish spec. This will turn on MHEG5.

    Is there an option for UK in Country set up (you restore the TV to shipping mode). MHEG5 will be present if you can do this.

    Irelands spec was published some time ago. Lets pester Panasonic to offer the firmware for Irelands spec on European models (L and E's)! They have no UKDbook to hide behind here.


  • #1103
    Thargor
    Registered Users Posts: 17,865 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Hi, can anyone tell me if theres any way for this tv to pick up digital tv and what I would need for that? If it cant then do any of the cheap argos tvs do it? Stuck typing on a phone since my laptop died, sorry.

    www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/5295449/c_1/1%7Ccategory_root%7CHome%2Bentertainment%2Band%2Bsat%2Bnav%7C14419512/c_2/2%7Ccat_14419512%7CTelevisions%7C14419667/c_3/3%7Ccat_14419667%7CLCD%2BTVs%7C19878730.htm


  • #1104
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Probably not.

    Wait and Argos, Tesco, Dunnes etc will have TVs with Saorview stickers. Take out the guess work.


  • #1105
    Machinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 732 ✭✭✭Machinehead


    STB wrote: »
    Ireland use DVB-T not DVB-T2. You will be fine.

    You are well within your rights to ask Panasonic for a firmware update for Irish spec. This will turn on MHEG5.

    Is there an option for UK in Country set up (you restore the TV to shipping mode). MHEG5 will be present if you can do this.

    Irelands spec was published some time ago. Lets pester Panasonic to offer the firmware for Irelands spec on European models (L and E's)! They have no UKDbook to hide behind here.

    Tried the go to "Shipping Condition" option before to get full D-Sat EPG & MHEG5 (rather than now & next EPG) but UK is not listed as one of the country options in the settings menu for the D25L.
    This is a response I got from Panasonic customer care on 11/08/2010 re MHEG5.

    In response, unfortunately the televisions are going to be unable to receive this broadcast and there are no planned firmware updates at present. The decision by the broadcaster to change the transmission signal has been taken long after the televisions were designed and produced. However, I will pass your feedback to our product development team for their information.

    We trust that the above information will be of assistance to you. However, of course, if you should have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact us on 0844 844 3852 or email us using the following email address:
    customer.care@panasonic.co.uk

    Where can I get the finalised specs for DTT software requirements?


  • #1106
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    First off -

    Q1 exact model no. TX-L- D25
    Q2 when and where did you buy it

    Is it this one ? Forget the size.

    http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-tx-l42d25-tx-l42d25b-20100430437.htm

    If it is Panasonic will not be able to fob you off on this (NOTHING WAS CHANGED - it has been the public domain since early 2008). This LED was only released on the market this year. Infact anything after the published date above is a problem for Panasonic not you. I will go off and get the EN Directive on this about offering updates.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    The min spec was first published in Feb 2008

    MINIMUM RECEIVER REQUIREMENTS FOR DTT IN IRELAND V1.0 (6 FEBRUARY 2008)

    Specifically says:

    4.1 Middleware

    Support for Data Broadcast Services is a highly recommended feature of the Receiver. If the Receiver supports middleware, the ability to receive and output Data Broadcast Services presented in accordance with the "MHEG-5 UK Profile, version 1.06[17]" is a minimum requirement.

    Source: http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/NR/rdonlyres/BFED0C82-501B-42E0-8F38-0789EA604497/0/MinimumReceiverRequirementsforDTTinIrelandv10.pdf

    The RTE NL amended Spec was published in December 2008.

    That also specified MHEG5. IRDs shall include MHEG-5 API UK profile version 1.06 with support of HDTV video as specified in
    DTG D-Book specification.

    When using ‘IRD’ (Integrated Receiver Decoder) it refers to all types of receivers. The IRDs can be
    divided into the following main implementation categories:

    * A STB (Set Top Box) is an IRD which is a separate unit (external) from the TV Set (Display)
    * An iDTV (integrated Digital Television Set) is an IRD which is a integrated into the TV Set/Display
    Source: http://www.rtenl.ie/downloads/RTE-FTA-DTT-Receiver-Spec.pdf


  • #1107
    Machinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 732 ✭✭✭Machinehead


    Thanks STB.
    The model is Panasonic TX-L42D25L
    Purchased for Soundstore 04/06/2010
    Who published those minimum receiver requirements?
    I have an email ready to go to Panasonic with the relevant link.


  • #1108
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Okay you have these bang to rights. Released this year and doesnt have MHEG5 in the Irish country profile. IDIOTS. Its a European model.

    Panasonic have to offer you the update that will turn on MHEG5 in your TV. The TV shouldnt have a DVB logo if they cant offer that. Also you will have a CAM slot on that TV - its mandatory especially for these type scenarios. They should send you out an update on a CAM that you insert into the side of the TV.

    Also either way you have a 2 year warranty under EU law.

    The first published spec is the Department of Communications in Ireland. The second link is RTE NL the network operator.

    Let us know how you get on. You might also mention that DTT has been on continuously since August 2008 but will only be launched in October so there will be a lot of people returning their so called COMPLIANT Integrated Digital TVs.

    It is in manufacturers interest to keep abreast of country broadcasting standards. They should not be depending on irate customers.


  • #1109
    Machinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 732 ✭✭✭Machinehead


    Thanks again STB. Email sent to Panasonic, hope it gets some results. As you've said, all recent Panasonic customers who don't have MHEG5 middleware set up should pester these guys. Just wondering, is it just D25 models or all Panasonics sold in Ireland that don't have MHEG5? Although my understanding from other posters is that a lot of them have the UK option in set up. I figure why they don't have MHEG5 on the D25L is down to freesat availability outside the UK & the inbuilt DVB-S tuner on the D25. (Am I making sense here?)


  • #1110
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Machinehead wrote: »
    Thanks again STB. Email sent to Panasonic, hope it gets some results. As you've said, all recent Panasonic customers who don't have MHEG5 middleware set up should pester these guys. Just wondering, is it just D25 models or all Panasonics sold in Ireland that don't have MHEG5? Although my understanding from other posters is that a lot of them have the UK option in set up. I figure why they don't have MHEG5 on the D25L is down to freesat availability outside the UK & the inbuilt DVB-S tuner on the D25. (Am I making sense here?)

    The "B" model is the UK model (D25B). They have the Freesat 7 day EPG and MHEG5 for Freeview. There have been serious problems with ALL Panasonic Freesat Combo's TVs use in ireland due to guess what..... incomplete firmware.

    Freeview is MPEG2. HD Freesat is MPEG4. They both use a common MPEG4 processor which processes the decoding on both tuners. Unfortunately they chose to turn off this option on the Freeview part so it only tunes in MPEG2 instead of MPEG4 and MPEG2. The people who have bought these products have been told that the products are for UK market.

    You bought a European model....... lets see what happens next. You will need to elevate this complaint.


  • Advertisement
  • #1111
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    UK is in Europe. Though you'd wonder.

    Nor is UK the only place to use MHEG5


Advertisement