Feeling like AGS are giving me the run around.

The pigeon man · 08-12-2019 9:32pm

Asus1 wrote: »

I do a bit of maintenance work in a few stations around kildare and meath every few month's and most of the men and women i meet in the stations are no worse or better than anyone else i do work for.I read whats written here and it just seems a bit alien reading about superintendents being power crazy freaks who are so untrustworthy that we should record our conversations with.Im not denying anybody's experiences with them it just makes me sad that its gotten to this stage.

It's sad but have a read of the story of Morris McCabe. Had he not recorded his conversation with a particular Garda his reputation would never have been redeemed.

It's important to record because the word of an experienced, well decorated Garda superintendent will always be held more credible than your own if it goes to court.

Asus1 · 08-12-2019 9:47pm

The pigeon man wrote: »

It's sad but have a read of the story of Morris McCabe. Had he not recorded his conversation with a particular Garda his reputation would never have been redeemed.

It's important to record because the word of an experienced, well decorated Garda superintendent will always be held more credible than your own if it goes to court.

Yes that whole affair was absolutely amazing in its own horrible way,how no people served serious time for trying to frame the man is disgusting.Its just mad that the simple act of applying for a licence or renewal has people dreading the thought of talking to the guards,it shouldn't have gotten to this stage.

Cass · 08-12-2019 10:25pm

Asus1 wrote: »

.Its just mad that the simple act of applying for a licence or renewal has people dreading the thought of talking to the guards,it shouldn't have gotten to this stage.

That is the crux of the matter.

It was "always" at this stage however the thing i see now is people are better educated since the new Act in 2009. Meaning they are not so easily bluffed with bulls**t and fake/made up laws.

AGS do not see the need for people to own guns. I have been told on many, many occasions that if they had their way [Superintendent) i wouldn't own a catapult. How do you expect to be treated fairly, or more accurately, according to the law when this is the attitude. Its akin to be being arrested, thrown into prison, and then having to prove you are innocent to get out. You are starting on the back foot.

This creates the sense of "dread" you describe which immediately, and understandably, leads to conflict. We are viewed as undesirables, and if i were forced to use a more severe term, the enemy. How else can you (the general you) explain refusals without legal grounds, punishment for the criminal activity of others, and complete lack of trust from those that govern us?

If you punish a section of society for the criminal actions of others you are saying that our freedoms rely on their behaviour and not our own.

Asus1 · 08-12-2019 11:00pm

Cass wrote: »

That is the crux of the matter.

It was "always" at this stage however the thing i see now is people are better educated since the new Act in 2009. Meaning they are not so easily bluffed with bulls**t and fake/made up laws.

AGS do not see the need for people to own guns. I have been told on many, many occasions that if they had their way [Superintendent) i wouldn't own a catapult. How do you expect to be treated fairly, or more accurately, according to the law when this is the attitude. Its akin to be being arrested, thrown into prison, and then having to prove you are innocent to get out. You are starting on the back foot.

This creates the sense of "dread" you describe which immediately, and understandably, leads to conflict. We are viewed as undesirables, and if i were forced to use a more severe term, the enemy. How else can you (the general you) explain refusals without legal grounds, punishment for the criminal activity of others, and complete lack of trust from those that govern us?

If you punish a section of society for the criminal actions of others you are saying that our freedoms rely on their behaviour and not our own.

As im only a gun owner × 2 the last 5 years i haven't as of yet had to deal with any bad experiences which people have been talked about in this thread and many other threads on here,and as such i feel very lucky.Reading other peoples experiences with gaurds in a position of power over firearm policy it is pointing towards a general restriction on owning any at all.

ZiabR · 09-12-2019 10:41am

Asus1 wrote: »

I do a bit of maintenance work in a few stations around kildare and meath every few month's and most of the men and women i meet in the stations are no worse or better than anyone else i do work for.I read whats written here and it just seems a bit alien reading about superintendents being power crazy freaks who are so untrustworthy that we should record our conversations with.Im not denying anybody's experiences with them it just makes me sad that its gotten to this stage.

As previously mentioned in above posts, 95% of Garda are very approachable and for the most part will help you. There are always bad eggs, but the same can be said for ANY profession.

The frustration when it comes to firearms licencing is not so much with the Garda, it is with the process as a whole. It should not be taking some stations 2-3 weeks and other stations 3-4 months.

I have never had an issue with the procedures around firearms licencing, the background checks etc. They are a good thing, but it all boils down to wait times and the fact that we get fobbed off when we request updates.

The process needs an overhaul both to help the applicants and the Gards.

Cass · 09-12-2019 12:15pm

ZiabR wrote: »

The process needs an overhaul both to help the applicants and the Gards.

I have to wonder how much is the process and how much is the Garda doing the job.

In the last ten years i've never waited more than 3 weeks for a new application, substitution, or renewal. Since all the previous FOs (and there were four of them in that ten year period) have retired the latest one has extended that process to a minimum of 3 months for a sub, renewal or new application with times up to 5 months.

The system hasn't changed so that only leaves the FO.

ZiabR · 09-12-2019 12:48pm

Cass wrote: »

I have to wonder how much is the process and how much is the Garda doing the job.

In the last ten years i've never waited more than 3 weeks for a new application, substitution, or renewal. Since all the previous FOs (and there were four of them in that ten year period) have retired the latest one has extended that process to a minimum of 3 months for a sub, renewal or new application with times up to 5 months.

The system hasn't changed so that only leaves the FO.

Interesting. I presume you are linked to the same station for the past 10 years? No change of address etc? From what I understand, the change to civilian staff has increased wait times for all applications but I really wonder are they just being used as a scap goat. I live in Leinster myself and got my first licence before the change to civilian staff. The application took about 5-6 weeks.

Fast forward to today and I am into week three of a substitution application. Very annoying because I have recently renewed my club membership, insurance and I had entered into a few club competitions which I am now unable to shoot in.

I am resigned to the fact that I wont get my licence back until the new year and likely towards the end of Jan which would see my substitution taking longer than my new application did.

How much of this is down to the gards and how much down to the process? I would LOVE to know.

EDIT - See the below which is taken from the Garda website. Scroll to Annex E and you will see that Subs should take 14 days and in bold letters it says that superintendents will attempt to have them completed quickly. In my case, I know my local garda personally, so they signed and stamped my sub the day I dropped it in and they handed it into the Super for me. So my wait times are directly linked to either the Super or the Civilian staff.

https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/online-services/firearms-licensing/commissioner-s-guidelines-2018.pdf

Grizzly 45 · 09-12-2019 4:33pm

Cass wrote: »

That is the crux of the matter.

It was "always" at this stage however the thing i see now is people are better educated since the new Act in 2009. Meaning they are not so easily bluffed with bulls**t and fake/made up laws.

AGS do not see the need for people to own guns. I have been told on many, many occasions that if they had their way [Superintendent) i wouldn't own a catapult. How do you expect to be treated fairly, or more accurately, according to the law when this is the attitude. Its akin to be being arrested, thrown into prison, and then having to prove you are innocent to get out. You are starting on the back foot.

This creates the sense of "dread" you describe which immediately, and understandably, leads to conflict. We are viewed as undesirables, and if i were forced to use a more severe term, the enemy. How else can you (the general you) explain refusals without legal grounds, punishment for the criminal activity of others, and complete lack of trust from those that govern us?

If you punish a section of society for the criminal actions of others you are saying that our freedoms rely on their behaviour and not our own.

Thank the EU and UN with their policies of as few firearms as possible in civillian hands.Which I had confirmed today in a roundabout way in the DOJ. All you need is zealots in authority to impliment this.

ZiabR · 09-12-2019 4:47pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Thank the EU and UN with their policies of as few firearms as possible in civillian hands.Which I had confirmed today in a roundabout way in the DOJ. All you need is zealots in authority to impliment this.

It does seem though that it completely depends on where you are from and what station you are linked to, that determines how you will be treated as an applicant. Some supers and garda dont try to make it more complicated than it is, and will just sign off on applications provided everything is in order.

Then there are to other supers and stations that seem to have a personal vendetta against applicants, and make it as hard as possible for people to get their licence.

That is where the majority of the frustration comes from. There is NO need for something as straight forward as a Sub or a Renewal to take 4-12 weeks. You already exist in pulse and are already the licenced owner of said firearm. I do think that they need to differentiate between New, Subs and Renewals.

ZiabR · 10-12-2019 5:12pm

madmac187 wrote: »

Very sceptical I rang Phoenix Park, application is only on system since October.

Excuse what might be a stupid question, but how do you mean you phoned the Phoenix Park? Do all New applications, Subs and Renewals go through this station? Am I missing something here?

Can you not collect your Sub or Renewal etc from the station you are linked to? Are the licences only printed in a central office?

Gorgeousgeorge · 10-12-2019 5:15pm

ZiabR wrote: »

Excuse what might be a stupid question, but how do you mean you phoned the Phoenix Park? Do all New applications, Subs and Renewals go through this station? Am I missing something here?

Can you not collect your Sub or Renewal etc from the station you are linked to? Are the licences only printed in a central office?

garda hq

tudderone · 10-12-2019 5:16pm

Is the garda ombudsman any use, or is he only window dressing ?

ZiabR · 10-12-2019 5:31pm

Gorgeousgeorge wrote: »

garda hq

Ah yes I know its the Garda HQ, but do all applications have to go through the HQ? I was under the impression that the details are entered into pulse in the local station and then the grant letter is issued. An Post handle the payments etc.

I know for example that there are 3 x Civilian staff in my local station that input all of the data into Pulse.

Cass · 10-12-2019 9:05pm

ZiabR wrote: »

Do all New applications, Subs and Renewals go through this station?

No.

Am I missing something here?

Probably the FPU (Firearms Policy Unit)

Can you not collect your Sub or Renewal etc from the station you are linked to?

All receipts, grants and licenses are posted out, not for collection.

Are the licences only printed in a central office?

I believe so, yes. Most grants and licenses have a Blackrock address on the envelope.

ZiabR wrote: »

Ah yes I know its the Garda HQ, but do all applications have to go through the HQ?

No, your local station.

I was under the impression that the details are entered into pulse in the local station and then the grant letter is issued. An Post handle the payments etc.

Correct.

ZiabR · 11-12-2019 10:20am

Thanks for clearing that up. It is shocking just how over complicated the whole process is.

Bagpipe · 13-12-2019 7:01pm

So an update on this epic saga,

I was in contact with the super during the week. We got a date arranged for the interview but things aren't looking very good. The first thing said over the phone was that he already was inclined to deny the "4 applications I had sent in multiple times for 3 shotguns and rifle". For no aforementioned reason I might add. (It's a great day for the parish when you've applied for more 3 more firearms unbeknownst to yourself in your own name and with your own address :eek: )

The following conversation had a tone that sounded as though I should've been shot for having the audacity to even attempt to apply for another firearm let alone ring to arrange the time of the meeting.

When asked the usual why I needed this firearm and accessory over the phone my reasons didn't seem audibly satisfactory at all.

And thats everything I have for the moment until my next encounter.

Cass · 13-12-2019 7:07pm

Just a bit of an opinion/advice. Accept no verbal refusal (if one comes). Make sure everything is in writing. No paper trail and you have no avenue to appeal.

Bagpipe · 13-12-2019 7:09pm

Cass wrote: »

Just a bit of an opinion/advice. Accept no verbal refusal (if one comes). Make sure everything is in writing. No paper trail and you have no avenue to appeal.

Would it be sent in a formal letter?

Cass · 13-12-2019 7:45pm

Yes. Unlikely that it'll be given to you at the end of the meeting and hopefully it won't be issued at all, but if it comes down to it you should receive it in the post and if not demand one.

IOW if at the end of the meeting it is a refusal make sure you say "when will i receive/can i expect the refusal in writing?"

Emmersonn · 14-12-2019 6:27pm

It might be a good idea as suggested earlier to have your solicitor with you.

Grizzly 45 · 14-12-2019 9:10pm

IF the Super or Cheif will agree that is...Most will refuse that request.So hit them with the fact that you will then be recording the meeting instead.:p

ZiabR · 16-12-2019 9:58am

Christ Bagpipe, I have not read a story as good as this in a long time. The plot thickens for sure. Keep us updated.

Cass · 16-12-2019 12:16pm

I would not recommend a solicitor. A witness or someone to accompany you by all means, but not a solicitor. It sets a tone and will immediately set a defensive and possibly confrontational tone in the meeting.

Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut comes to mind. A solicitor should be a last resort and not used a means of threat, intimidation and in my opinion it can have a negative effect.

tudderone · 17-12-2019 2:25pm

I see on the front of todays Irish times that there is to be a clear out of the senior ranks of the Gardai. 30 superintendents and chief superintendents are to be give the golden handshake and told so long.

ZiabR · 17-12-2019 2:32pm

tudderone wrote: »

I see on the front of todays Irish times that there is to be a clear out of the senior ranks of the Gardai. 30 superintendents and chief superintendents are to be give the golden handshake and told so long.

This part of weeding out the backhanders and bringing in more transparency?

Grizzly 45 · 17-12-2019 2:33pm

Or is that just a new PC way of calling it ,and doing a "purge"? Can be a double edged sword stuff like this.

tudderone · 17-12-2019 2:35pm

They are getting great pay-offs, very generous by any standards. Who knows, we may even get a police force thats professional and fit for purpose.

ZiabR · 17-12-2019 2:42pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Or is that just a new PC way of calling it ,and doing a "purge"? Can be a double edged sword stuff like this.

I would tend to agree with you Grizzly. Things rarely just involve the Super or Chief Super. Whatever the reason for the layoffs, the repercussions would nearly always filter down into the lower ranks of guards and knock a few noses out of joint. This can be a double edged sword for sure.

We already know that the guards are way understaffed, so I think it would be a safe assumption that there is more to this than just clearing ranks.

Grizzly 45 · 17-12-2019 2:47pm

tudderone wrote: »

They are getting great pay-offs, very generous by any standards. Who knows, we may even get a police force thats professional and fit for purpose.

In a parallel universe Ireland that is.:rolleyes::D It's an endemic ingrained problem in the force since the States foundation.Only way to sort this out is to do like the RUC.Disband the force and strt again from the ground up.Or create a a 3rd force like in many EU countries,an armed para military police force whose sole job is dealing with political,radicals and threats of the like to the state,with CLEARLY defined zones of busisness under the constitution and law.And let AGS get on with the mundane police tasks of parking tickets,and helping old ladies cross the road.

Grizzly 45 · 17-12-2019 2:51pm

ZiabR wrote: »

I would tend to agree with you Grizzly. Things rarely just involve the Super or Chief Super. Whatever the reason for the layoffs, the repercussions would nearly always filter down into the lower ranks of guards and knock a few noses out of joint. This can be a double edged sword for sure.

We already know that the guards are way understaffed, so I think it would be a safe assumption that there is more to this than just clearing ranks.

Once you get above the rank of Sgt in AGS,it starts becoming political.Once above the rank of inspector,it is a political promotion.Once you are super,you are there because of politics.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Feeling like AGS are giving me the run around.

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