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Cork - Light Rail [route options idenfication and initial design underway]

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Comments

  • #182
    Curb Your Enthusiasm
    Registered Users Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭Curb Your Enthusiasm


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    If the intention was to create a impression of what the scheme will look like, they should have left the cycle lanes and removed one of the car lanes. The street has a finite width, and to omit the cycle lanes gives a false impression - which I would hope they did not intend.

    It's unfortunately something Cork City Council and others seem to be hellbent on doing. Even removing existing infrastructure....

    https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Segregated-cycle-lane-due-to-be-removed-from-Sullivans-Quay-1f2e1aa8-b1a5-4f4e-ae59-cacc873fc390-ds

    https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Cycling-and-pedestrian-groups-both-reject-plans-for-improved-public-realm-in-Cork-suburb-fe45afb5-91c6-4a70-9e08-ee5f3f6294d0-ds


  • #183
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    If the intention was to create a impression of what the scheme will look like, they should have left the cycle lanes and removed one of the car lanes. The street has a finite width, and to omit the cycle lanes gives a false impression - which I would hope they did not intend.

    How do you know that they’ll remove a car lane? There is currently 4 lanes on the street, they simply replaced 2 of the lanes with tram lanes.

    Honestly, it’s not a big deal.


  • #184
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    To be honest ,I'd prefer properly designed shared car/bike Lanes ,to badly done shared pedestrian/bike Lanes ( thinking of penrose quay and Patrick's quay) (,but it's a while since I cycled in urban areas so I could be behind the curve ... )
    So reduced speed limits for shared bike/ car Lanes, reduced parking on the road or better separated anyway. ( possibly narrower Lanes ) but not just bike Lanes appearing and disappearing as a junction approaches ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #185
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,335 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Last Stop wrote: »
    How do you know that they’ll remove a car lane? There is currently 4 lanes on the street, they simply replaced 2 of the lanes with tram lanes.

    Honestly, it’s not a big deal.

    Compare current layout with the photo shop version.

    They have removed two cycle lanes and one bus lane and retained two car lanes, and added two tram lines.


  • #186
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Compare current layout with the photo shop version.

    They have removed two cycle lanes and one bus lane and retained two car lanes, and added two tram lines.

    They haven’t removed anything. They’ve shown 2 tram lanes and 2 car lanes. That’s it. It’s a bloody photo. We don’t even know if the cycle lanes were there in the original photo they used. It’s this sort of nonsense that makes people resent cyclists :rolleyes:


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  • #187
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I'm assuming a guided trambus or a rail system would allow for narrower lane width ..but if you put the tram next to the kerb you have to allow for pedestrians stepping off in front of the tram ... You can't put a cycle lane between the tram lane and footpath because ,where do the bikes go when you get to a tram stop/ or a junction ...
    What city center streets or routes would people envision a tram following ??
    2 way trams on macurtain street or one way ? Could the old rail " cutting " between lower glanmire road and Brian boru street be used , ?
    Patrick street and/ or south mall ?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #188
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,335 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Last Stop wrote: »
    They haven’t removed anything. They’ve shown 2 tram lanes and 2 car lanes. That’s it. It’s a bloody photo. We don’t even know if the cycle lanes were there in the original photo they used. It’s this sort of nonsense that makes people resent cyclists :rolleyes:

    Check Google street view.


  • #189
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Check Google street view.

    That may not be the photo that was used. Odds are it wasn’t. Get over it


  • #190
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,335 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Last Stop wrote: »
    That may not be the photo that was used. Odds are it wasn’t. Get over it

    You mean it was an artists impression. I suppose that is how glossy proposals are usually produced - not based on facts.


  • #191
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    You mean it was an artists impression. I suppose that is how glossy proposals are usually produced - not based on facts.

    No I mean photo as all artists impressions are based on photos and then photoshopped to include the proposals. If they used a slightly dated photo, it mightn’t have contained the cycle lanes. This proposal also doesn’t include the bollards on that street either.
    I really struggle to see why it’s such a big deal. The proposed bridge is based on the Samual Beckett in another visual. Obviously it’s not going to look like that.


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  • #192
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    just came across this on youtube...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYGeWmi00XQ

    seems to offer a number of advantages over system we have in dublin...


  • #193
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    just came across this on youtube...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYGeWmi00XQ

    seems to offer a number of advantages over system we have in dublin...

    This would appear to be Translohr/Bombardier tech from the 80s/90s rehashed by the Chinese. These systems which were implemented in a couple of cities globally, are being torn up in France.


  • #194
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,335 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    donvito99 wrote: »
    This would appear to be Translohr/Bombardier tech from the 80s/90s rehashed by the Chinese. These systems which were implemented in a couple of cities globally, are being torn up in France.

    What is wrong with the system? France have a Metro line (9 - I think) that is rubber wheeled.


  • #195
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    donvito99 wrote: »
    This would appear to be Translohr/Bombardier tech from the 80s/90s rehashed by the Chinese. These systems which were implemented in a couple of cities globally, are being torn up in France.

    not having to rip up the entire roads and allegedly nowhere near as bad noise v the normal steel wheels on the track, is that true?


  • #196
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    What is wrong with the system? France have a Metro line (9 - I think) that is rubber wheeled.

    yeah I have been on that metro line in paris, it only stands out, as I remember the rubber wheel as standing out...


  • #197
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Nothing wrong with putting a normal tram in Cork.

    Not sure what's wrong with a proven system like the Luas. No need for Cork to be a transit system laboratory.


  • #198
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    marno21 wrote: »
    Nothing wrong with putting a normal tram in Cork.

    Not sure what's wrong with a proven system like the Luas. No need for Cork to be a transit system laboratory.

    do you not think that system appears to have a number of benefits? assuming nowhere near as much building disruption, one rail as a hazard, instead of two. Reduced noise polution.


  • #199
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    do you not think that system appears to have a number of benefits? assuming nowhere near as much building disruption, one rail as a hazard, instead of two. Reduced noise polution.

    Massively inefficient when compared to steel on steel though and has a serious propensity to derail. It's not a terribly quiet system either.

    One merit to the system is it can be applied on gradients unsuited to conventional light rail.


  • #200
    niloc1951
    Registered Users Posts: 2,035 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    donvito99 wrote: »
    This would appear to be Translohr/Bombardier tech from the 80s/90s rehashed by the Chinese. These systems which were implemented in a couple of cities globally, are being torn up in France.

    Where in France is the system being 'torn up'
    Currently the Van Hool Trambus SEE HERE, which is similar to the CRRC product, is being rolled out in many Europen cities including French cities.


  • #201
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    niloc1951 wrote: »
    Where in France is the system being 'torn up'
    Currently the Van Hool Trambus SEE HERE, which is similar to the CRRC product, is being rolled out in many Europen cities including French cities.

    Caen is digging up and replacing its Bombardier GLT system with a normal tram despite having only been in service 17 year.s..

    That Van Hool system isn't comparable as it isn't guided by rail. It's just a bus.


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  • #202
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Isn't the advantage of the vantool system that it's "just a bus " if a rubber wheel guided tram follows a fixed route , it will have to run on a concrete "runway /track way " or it'll rut the surface ...
    If you have to install a concrete track way and the guide rail for the length of the route then just put in a regular tram ...
    The advantage of the trambus is it's flexibility though, if a following a guide rail (or wire) improves it's flexibility at a pinch point , (a junction ,or right turn ) or even ensures the vehicle is correctly lined up at a stop then that's a good thing ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #203
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,335 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Isn't the advantage of the vantool system that it's "just a bus " if a rubber wheel guided tram follows a fixed route , it will have to run on a concrete "runway /track way " or it'll rut the surface ...
    If you have to install a concrete track way and the guide rail for the length of the route then just put in a regular tram ...
    The advantage of the trambus is it's flexibility though, if a following a guide rail (or wire) improves it's flexibility at a pinch point , (a junction ,or right turn ) or even ensures the vehicle is correctly lined up at a stop then that's a good thing ...

    If the rut problem is a serious issue, the tambus could randomly take a different path as it trundled along. The ground rail is partly a guide but is also the return path for electric current. The road could be surfaced with concrete anyway if that is required. I am sure that it would not be a huge cost over tarmac.

    It has the benefit that the ground rail takes no load so has no huge foundation and so can be quite cheap to lay, and if necessary, to move. I think it might be a good solution for Cork and other cities. Luas type tram systems are hugely expensive, and the tram bit is going to be more expensive than the trambus.


  • #204
    niloc1951
    Registered Users Posts: 2,035 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    One of the dissadvantages of a fixed rail system is the total loss of service on a route when an accident or breakdown occurs LIKE THIS which are all to common. A Trambus, whether self-powered, hybrid or powered from an overhead supply, can easilly detour around a blockage thus maintaining the scheduled services on the route.


  • #205
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    niloc1951 wrote: »
    One of the dissadvantages of a fixed rail system is the total loss of service on a route when an accident or breakdown occurs LIKE THIS which are all to common. A Trambus, whether self-powered, hybrid or powered from an overhead supply, can easilly detour around a blockage thus maintaining the scheduled services on the route.

    These are rare occurrences to be fair. A better solution would be higher fines and enforcement for behaviour which leads to accidents


  • #206
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,335 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    niloc1951 wrote: »
    One of the dissadvantages of a fixed rail system is the total loss of service on a route when an accident or breakdown occurs LIKE THIS which are all to common. A Trambus, whether self-powered, hybrid or powered from an overhead supply, can easilly detour around a blockage thus maintaining the scheduled services on the route.

    There are various configurations that would work. O/H power with battery backup would allow the trambus to pull pass obstructions. A fully battery trambus would need recharging which means downtime at some point. An electric powered trambus is zero pollution which is important for city centre operation.

    But the trambus has a big advantage over Luas - it is cheaper to install - and presumable quicker to install. If it needs harder road surfaces, then that is no big issue - many roads are concrete anyway. Luas needs firm foundations that require services to be moved, which is not the case with the trambus.


    .


  • #207
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Sam Russell wrote: »

    But the trambus has a big advantage over Luas - it is cheaper to install - and presumable quicker to install. If it needs harder road surfaces, then that is no big issue - many roads are concrete anyway. Luas needs firm foundations that require services to be moved, which is not the case with the trambus.


    .

    Cheaper to install initially but likely more expensive overtime as you have to constantly repair and relay the service which is being battered everyday by buses. Poorer ride quality for this reason also.

    If we had built a tram-bus (as many incl the Colm McCarthys and Sean Barretts of this world suggested back in the day) instead of Luas in 2004, how quickly would it have been abandoned and how much longer would it have taken to arrive at a more sensible Luas (or possibly a Metro) type solution?

    I can understand the merits of a system like this for standalone, moderate-demand routes like an airport to a city centre with few stops in between. But their use on trunk, high demand commuter routes would be misguided IMO.


  • #208
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,335 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Cheaper to install initially but likely more expensive overtime as you have to constantly repair and relay the service which is being battered everyday by buses. Poorer ride quality for this reason also.

    If we had built a tram-bus (as many incl the Colm McCarthys and Sean Barretts of this world suggested back in the day) instead of Luas in 2004, how quickly would it have been abandoned and how much longer would it have taken to arrive at a more sensible Luas (or possibly a Metro) type solution?

    I can understand the merits of a system like this for standalone, moderate-demand routes like an airport to a city centre with few stops in between. But their use on trunk, high demand commuter routes would be misguided IMO.

    If we install segregated bus lanes with high frequency (a bus every 2 mins), will this not suffer the same effect. As I pointed out in an earlier post, the trambus can be programmed to deviate from the same path to reduce this effect. Also, the surface can be concrete to reduce this effect also.

    The single rail is not load bearing and in effect is merely an electric current return, so no special foundations are needed. This means installation is quick and cheap. The vehicles are probably the same cost, and could be similar to Luas trams. In fact, very similar to trolley buses, but using single O/H wires instead of twin O/H wires.


  • #209
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    In an ideal world we'd be talking a high frequency route .. and cork is at the moment (and for the foreseeable future ) a small City.... So to my mind the important part is the route and stops , not the launch vehicle ..
    So it to my mind it could be a single carriage bus,(with 2 or 3 doors,and a largely flat floor) ,that can pull up to designated ,correct height stops , and drive along a properly designated ,policed, road way ..
    If it needs to be made self driving in future then grand ,
    If multi carriage buses are needed in future then grand,
    If they need to be hybrid or fully electric then grand ...

    But to my mind it's the route....,frequency...stops/platforms and the ticketing before all else

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #210
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridgeshire_Guided_Busway

    Not exactly what'd suit cork but ...
    Interestingly,huge cost overruns the main contractor was involved a major legal dispute ... BAM , now where have I heard that name and story before ....

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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  • #211
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,278 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Markcheese wrote: »
    In an ideal world we'd be talking a high frequency route .. and cork is at the moment (and for the foreseeable future ) a small City.... So to my mind the important part is the route and stops , not the launch vehicle ..
    So it to my mind it could be a single carriage bus,(with 2 or 3 doors,and a largely flat floor) ,that can pull up to designated ,correct height stops , and drive along a properly designated ,policed, road way ..
    If it needs to be made self driving in future then grand ,
    If multi carriage buses are needed in future then grand,
    If they need to be hybrid or fully electric then grand ...

    But to my mind it's the route....,frequency...stops/platforms and the ticketing before all else

    This ‘if it needs to be upgraded in the future, grand’ thing is the last thing we should be doing in this country. I use the luas for work and it’s a great system but has some flaws especially with having needed upgrades and now at capacity because we didn’t do it right from the start. We should aspire to build the best we can for future generations to use not fix.


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