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  • 28-09-2020 6:46pm
    #1
    onedmc
    Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭


    So Bullethq has just sent me an email to say that their Free-Forever package is no longer free.

    No warning - bang - you have to pay to have access to you accounts.

    Anyone else think that that is DISHONEST

    I did get an email to say that they were updating their free pricing but no mention that it would not longer be free or that I would now have to pay to have access to MY historical account information.

    I'm kinda stunned at this sort of behaviour from a company that you are supposed to trust with your accounts information.


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    #2
    ObiTwoKenobi
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭ObiTwoKenobi


    At least you got an e-mail - I received nothing at all.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057131523

    "100% Free Online Accounts & Invoicing Forever, No Limits Or Caps"


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    #3
    in2dark
    Registered Users Posts: 330 ✭✭in2dark


    onedmc wrote: »
    So Bullethq has just sent me an email to say that their Free-Forever package is no longer free.

    No warning - bang - you have to pay to have access to you accounts.

    Anyone else think that that is DISHONEST

    I did get an email to say that they were updating their free pricing but no mention that it would not longer be free or that I would now have to pay to have access to MY historical account information.

    I'm kinda stunned at this sort of behaviour from a company that you are supposed to trust with your accounts information.

    Totally dishonest! Agree with you...

    Im using my own local server and running invoiceninja.
    Totally free and not sharing my clients info anymore with the smarty bullet...


  • Options
    #4
    ObiTwoKenobi
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭ObiTwoKenobi


    in2dark wrote: »
    Totally dishonest! Agree with you...

    Im using my own local server and running invoiceninja.
    Totally free and not sharing my clients info anymore with the smarty bullet...

    Invoice Ninja is a great system - but Bullet was handy for all the other stuff inc VAT returns, but I see this is exclusive to the top-tier package now. I wish they had another package in between the €15 and €28 but there seems to be no demand for it. I can find very little chatter about bullet on-line apart from their own forum which is most likely censored anyway. Maybe they don't have that many clients and so have to squeeze them now to make ends meet?


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    #5
    in2dark
    Registered Users Posts: 330 ✭✭in2dark


    ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »
    Invoice Ninja is a great system - but Bullet was handy for all the other stuff inc VAT returns, but I see this is exclusive to the top-tier package now. I wish they had another package in between the €15 and €28 but there seems to be no demand for it. I can find very little chatter about bullet on-line apart from their own forum which is most likely censored anyway. Maybe they don't have that many clients and so have to squeeze them now to make ends meet?

    Dont find it hard to do my own vat returns to be honest every 2 months....
    I also do my vies once a month


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    #6
    ObiTwoKenobi
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭ObiTwoKenobi


    in2dark wrote: »
    Dont find it hard to do my own vat returns to be honest every 2 months....
    I also do my vies once a month

    Yes VAT returns are easy enough, but it was a nice touch to Bullet.
    Have you ever looked at GnuCash? It seems to be well supported and has a setup for small business accounts. I think I'm going to give it a whirl. I've looked at two other self-hosted solutions, Front Accounting and WebZash but both seemed quite hard to use.


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    #7
    in2dark
    Registered Users Posts: 330 ✭✭in2dark


    ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »
    Yes VAT returns are easy enough, but it was a nice touch to Bullet.
    Have you ever looked at GnuCash? It seems to be well supported and has a setup for small business accounts. I think I'm going to give it a whirl. I've looked at two other self-hosted solutions, Front Accounting and WebZash but both seemed quite hard to use.

    I had a look @gnucash now, still believe that my ninja
    A. Looks better
    B. Has all the features I need

    I am not utilising all its features ... If I wanted I could have it working fully automatically for me (taking payments from customers, sending reminders etc)

    For my needs I have it configured the way I wanted.

    Plus, it is free forever and 100% private.

    All I had to do was to follow a very easy guide and install it on a virtual machine at home


  • Options
    #8
    vintagecosmos
    Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭vintagecosmos


    onedmc wrote: »
    So Bullethq has just sent me an email to say that their Free-Forever package is no longer free.

    No warning - bang - you have to pay to have access to you accounts.

    Anyone else think that that is DISHONEST

    I did get an email to say that they were updating their free pricing but no mention that it would not longer be free or that I would now have to pay to have access to MY historical account information.

    I'm kinda stunned at this sort of behaviour from a company that you are supposed to trust with your accounts information.

    Check out wave accounts for invoicing and day to day bookkeeping.

    Bullet used to be free forever. Then it was free for 5 invoices. Now it's paid for a basic feature. Do yourself a favour and export your data and fine someone reputable and with a solid track record. Have heard some horror stories around bullet and accountants charging a packet to start from scratch and do up accounts. (Although probably the fault of peoples input) regardless, You just can't trust a legal compliance matter to such a small venture.

    "Awarding Winning Online Accounting Software for Ireland. Free Invoicing Software, Free Accounting Software, Free Mileage Software. No caps, Limits or Tricks :)"

    Misleading. And the award was a 2012 beta Dublin startup award which was an informal meetup where people in attendance voted on the night. Hardly an endorsement at all. Lad gets pat on back by mates does not equal award winning.

    https://www.siliconrepublic.com/start-ups/new-start-ups-make-their-debut-at-dublin-beta


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    #9
    vintagecosmos
    Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭vintagecosmos


    ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »
    Invoice Ninja is a great system - but Bullet was handy for all the other stuff inc VAT returns, but I see this is exclusive to the top-tier package now. I wish they had another package in between the €15 and €28 but there seems to be no demand for it. I can find very little chatter about bullet on-line apart from their own forum which is most likely censored anyway. Maybe they don't have that many clients and so have to squeeze them now to make ends meet?

    I noticed the forums and social media is heavily censored. Owner seems to be a a bit stuck up. Made a dope of himself on twitter when someone suggested doing more in Irish. Amazing how many 5 star reviews they have from people with only one review....

    Anyway. As you can tell. I'm not a fan. :)


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    #10
    ObiTwoKenobi
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭ObiTwoKenobi


    vintagecosmos wrote: »
    I noticed the forums and social media is heavily censored. Owner seems to be a a bit stuck up. Made a dope of himself on twitter when someone suggested doing more in Irish. Amazing how many 5 star reviews they have from people with only one review....

    Anyway. As you can tell. I'm not a fan. :)

    LOL yes I found them to be quite arrogant. Bullet would not accept new dates when my VAT reporting changed. They insisted that I had to talk to revenue as no-one else had the problem, but in fact I figured it out myself that their implementation was a bit quirky and got it entered. When I alerted them to the "problem" I was ignored. Another time they replied that display problems in the browser was the fault of my computer.


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    #11
    ObiTwoKenobi
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭ObiTwoKenobi


    vintagecosmos wrote: »
    Have heard some horror stories around bullet and accountants charging a packet to start from scratch and do up accounts. (Although probably the fault of peoples input) regardless, You just can't trust a legal compliance matter to such a small venture.

    They introduced me to one of their recommended accountants who could help out as he was familiar with the Bullet system - trouble was he was four times more expensive than the competition.


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    #12
    vintagecosmos
    Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭vintagecosmos


    ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »
    LOL yes I found them to be quite arrogant. Bullet would not accept new dates when my VAT reporting changed. They insisted that I had to talk to revenue as no-one else had the problem, but in fact I figured it out myself that their implementation was a bit quirky and got it entered. When I alerted them to the "problem" I was ignored. Another time they replied that display problems in the browser was the fault of my computer.

    Yes I had a similar experience. Reported multiple errors in the software but was blanked when there wasnt a quick fix. Had to rely on fixes/workarounds to get it somewhat right. When the founder of the "award winning" company is manning the customer support chat it really makes you wonder about the scale of the business. Nothing wrong with it for a small business but unusual for someone who declares themselves as global and an alternative to the bigger brands like Big Red Cloud, Sage etc.


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    #13
    vintagecosmos
    Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭vintagecosmos


    ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »
    They introduced me to one of their recommended accountants who could help out as he was familiar with the Bullet system - trouble was he was four times more expensive than the competition.
    Didnt realise they did recommendations. I thought their aim was to get rid of accountants :)

    Any accountant I spoke to has issues with Bullet. But as I mentioned above, issues are more related to the data users input. I guess bullet makes you think it is straightforward and you don't need an accountant. But if you have been entering items in the wrong accounts, or not depreciating etc then it can make quite an issue when producing a set of accounts. No accountant I know uses it. And they have charged extra to start from the beginning as they just couldnt trust the figures in Bullet. They mentioned a case where someone over paid VAT and another underpaid it....

    For business owners trying to bootstrap and do it all themselves I highly recommend finding an accountant you can work with. So you can spend your time building up the business, not the admin. Your evenings should be with your family and friends not slumped over a computer doing accounts on bullet of all things.


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    #14
    ObiTwoKenobi
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭ObiTwoKenobi


    Can anyone clarify another point? - Bullet told me "it's tax deductible, so it comes out of your tax not your profit, and so is in effect free". My accountant says that this is incorrect and the Bullet fees will come off your taxable profits before /U] tax is calculated. So the saving is actually 12.5%, not 100% or "free".


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    #15
    vintagecosmos
    Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭vintagecosmos


    ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »
    Can anyone clarify another point? - Bullet told me "it's tax deductible, so it comes out of your tax not your profit, and so is in effect free". My accountant says that this is incorrect and the Bullet fees will come off your taxable profits before /U] tax is calculated. So the saving is actually 12.5%, not 100% or "free".

    That's hilarious. They must think you are thick. As an example, So if you spend 100k on business stationery it's a business expense so you won't pay corporation tax on it so therefore it's free? Where is the 100k gone then :)


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    #16
    Royale with Cheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,979 ✭✭✭Royale with Cheese


    I got emails about pricing changes but quickly scanning them was told their €7 package wasn't increasing price so I thought grand. First of the month rolls round and I try to create an invoice... nope that'll cost you €15 a month now. More than double the price.


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    #17
    vintagecosmos
    Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭vintagecosmos


    Royale with Cheese wrote: »
    I got emails about pricing changes but quickly scanning them was told their €7 package wasn't increasing price so I thought grand. First of the month rolls round and I try to create an invoice... nope that'll cost you €15 a month now. More than double the price.

    It really is underhand. Wait til you are invested in a system that they promise is free forever etc etc, then extort money out of you. Wave is great for invoicing, you can take payments with Stripe etc. Very neat and has zapier integration so you can integrate it with your other systems.


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    #18
    ObiTwoKenobi
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭ObiTwoKenobi


    vintagecosmos wrote: »
    That's hilarious. They must think you are thick. As an example, So if you spend 100k on business stationery it's a business expense so you won't pay corporation tax on it so therefore it's free? Where is the 100k gone then :)

    I assume their point is that the 100k has been paid by the state in lost CT effectively subsidising your stationery. I've asked more than one accountant about this and they have all said that it's "misleading".


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    #19
    vintagecosmos
    Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭vintagecosmos


    ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »
    I assume their point is that the 100k has been paid by the state in lost CT effectively subsidising your stationery.

    it is a peculiar marketing message. Like if you cant convince them, confuse them.

    They would have been better to say "here is why we are good value bla bla bla..."


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    #20
    ObiTwoKenobi
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭ObiTwoKenobi


    vintagecosmos wrote: »
    it is a peculiar marketing message. Like if you cant convince them, confuse them.

    They would have been better to say "here is why we are good value bla bla bla..."

    Agreed. I don't have an objection to paying for Bullet. I pay outright for some software I use and lease others. That's OK. What I object to is that they set off as "free", became "freemium" and now are "premium", trapping the users after they have loaded several years of data onto their servers. Also the pricing model is a bit cynical, as the base package of 5-a-month for invoice and bills and not VAT returns is basically useless, so in effect it's €28 a month.


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    #21
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    The "free, forever" thing was probably done in good faith. But as companies so often discover, when you give away the milk for free, nobody will buy the dairy cows that you're selling.
    It's a common mistake I've seen with a lot of software startups. Where it would have made more sense to have usage limits that encouraged people to sign up without binding themselves into a "free forever" agreement.

    At some point it was likely decided that the bad PR from shutting down free accounts was worth the cost savings/income that it would yield.


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    #22
    ObiTwoKenobi
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭ObiTwoKenobi


    seamus wrote: »
    The "free, forever" thing was probably done in good faith. But as companies so often discover, when you give away the milk for free, nobody will buy the dairy cows that you're selling.
    It's a common mistake I've seen with a lot of software startups. Where it would have made more sense to have usage limits that encouraged people to sign up without binding themselves into a "free forever" agreement.

    At some point it was likely decided that the bad PR from shutting down free accounts was worth the cost savings/income that it would yield.

    Yes agreed - I'm sure the business model was born out of naivety rather than anything else.


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    #23
    vintagecosmos
    Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭vintagecosmos


    ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »
    Yes agreed - I'm sure the business model was born out of naivety rather than anything else.

    True. I suppose it would have been nice for users to have free honoured and fees for new customers. Or perhaps a one time payment for a licence.


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    #24
    onedmc
    Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭onedmc


    ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »
    naivety

    Closer to stupidity.

    When I saw bullet was free forever, I simply though that's a bit stupid when you could have said "free for five years".


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    #25
    vintagecosmos
    Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭vintagecosmos


    onedmc wrote: »
    Closer to stupidity.

    When I saw bullet was free forever, I simply though that's a bit stupid when you could have said "free for five years".

    I suppose the question is, would you trust them to be around in the next few years if the shift to paid plans doesn't work?

    I'm sure it's costly to maintain it with all the continuous changes, especially the PAYE online etc. Their website isn't in great shape too. Quite dated content and looks terrible on mobile.

    To measure it against another Irish company, Big Red Cloud, has a strong paying customer base for years on their big red book software. Then they shifted to the cloud and seem to be going strong.

    Wave is free, but they have a sustainable model in partnership with Stripe i.e. they charge standard rates to the client for online payments, but get a percentage from Stripe.


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    #26
    meijin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭meijin


    vintagecosmos wrote: »
    Wave is free, but they have a sustainable model in partnership with Stripe i.e. they charge standard rates to the client for online payments, but get a percentage from Stripe.

    3rd time you're suggesting Wave here... do you work for them?


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    #27
    vintagecosmos
    Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭vintagecosmos


    meijin wrote: »
    3rd time you're suggesting Wave here... do you work for them?

    Nope. Just a user. What do you use for invoicing?


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    #28
    John_Mc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,790 ✭✭✭John_Mc


    I never received any notification from them at all. I was paying for Payroll but nothing else. I logged in 2 days ago to find that I couldn't access any of my data and the price was now €28 + VAT.

    It's not as if they have added a lot of new functionality over the last few years and really enhanced it to justify this massive increase. The UI is dated and very simplistic. The Android app never worked for me and I came across quite a lot of bugs over the years.
    ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »
    LOL yes I found them to be quite arrogant. Bullet would not accept new dates when my VAT reporting changed. They insisted that I had to talk to revenue as no-one else had the problem, but in fact I figured it out myself that their implementation was a bit quirky and got it entered. When I alerted them to the "problem" I was ignored. Another time they replied that display problems in the browser was the fault of my computer.

    Yes, Pete is absolutely arrogant and horrible to deal with. The other girl didn't understand at all and was wasting my time with her suggestions.
    ObiTwoKenobi wrote: »
    Can anyone clarify another point? - Bullet told me "it's tax deductible, so it comes out of your tax not your profit, and so is in effect free". My accountant says that this is incorrect and the Bullet fees will come off your taxable profits before /U] tax is calculated. So the saving is actually 12.5%, not 100% or "free".

    She said this to me also. It's so idiotic. Imagine justifying a pay rise to your boss with the same logic?

    I had recommended Bullet to some contractors and now regret doing so as this terrible move by them. I wish them the worst as that's what they deserve after this.


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    #29
    ObiTwoKenobi
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭ObiTwoKenobi


    It will be interesting to see what happens. I imaging they're going to lose a lot of clients now as their value proposition is weak compared to the more established alternatives now at the same monthly price. The whole transition was handled poorly. They never offered any discount or anything by way of a customer loyalty program - I was paying for payroll only also.

    I know that if I treated my customers with the same level of contempt I would not be in business at all.


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    #30
    vintagecosmos
    Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭vintagecosmos


    Since I plugged wave so much :( looks like I'll need an alternative

    https://community.waveapps.com/discussion/9686?utm_medium=email&_hsmi=101479219&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-_OnhKLRMlhMldE0TTROi84BIqsB7lEHmF60D_8kAJMf3BlW7y7ASpRoOdEefE4ISA0Kz70vWM59kGMMLc2_M77b6RWeQ&utm_content=101479219&utm_source=hs_email


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    #31
    ObiTwoKenobi
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭ObiTwoKenobi


    OK so Bullet are obliged to retain your data but not obliged to give you access to it without payment.
    I assume that is legal under the current laws? Just interested in any opinions out there.

    For what it's worth my advice would be to get your data off the system (and also at regular intervals if you stay on board) for sake-keeping but they don't make that particularly easy. As far as I know there is no bulk dump for everything at once.


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