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Champions Cup 2019/20

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    French and English teams prioritise the league because it is in their best interests to do so.

    Irish teams prioritise Europe because it is in their best interests to do so.

    Neither of these is objectively better or worse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,742 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    awec wrote: »
    But that's not the same thing at all, that's why it never comes up.

    A French team could send a full team away any time they wanted. Every French side can prioritise whatever fixture it wants, to suit itself, because they are all independent.

    And there are very few IRFU mandated rest weeks. There is a number of games players are allowed play in a period. The provinces then generally pick and choose which games to play them for and which to rest them for. That's why generally in Christmas interpros the home team is a strong one while the away team is a weak one. The provinces arent going to rest these guys for the HEC games because they can afford to drop points in the league more than in Europe.

    This year is the exception. There is a mandated 2 consecutive weeks off. This is because the RWC players have had so little time off all year given the RWC pre-season. Theres a human factor at play here too, which is another thing that gets regularly forgotten.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,742 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    French and English teams prioritise the league because it is in their best interests to do so.

    Irish teams prioritise Europe because it is in their best interests to do so.

    Neither of these is objectively better or worse.

    This. That's a financial thing given the revenues in their leagues. We get our money from the national team and then Europe with the league being the smallest earner. Hence our priorities are fundamentally different. This is simple reality. People can balk against it all they want but it's not going to change.


  • Administrators Posts: 53,127 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    French and English teams prioritise the league because it is in their best interests to do so.

    Irish teams prioritise Europe because it is in their best interests to do so.

    Neither of these is objectively better or worse.

    Maybe true, but it is certainly frustrating that the competition we watch week in, week out, is run in such a half arsed manner for a competition we see much less of.

    The imbalance is far too great IMO. I get that our league is never going to be amazing, but it should be better than it is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,742 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    awec wrote: »
    Maybe true, but it is certainly frustrating that the competition we watch week in, week out, is run in such a half arsed manner for a competition we see much less of.

    The imbalance is far too great IMO. I get that our league is never going to be amazing, but it should be better than it is.

    If the Welsh got their act together it would be though. I get the interpros have become a very, very pale shadow of what they were. And that sucks. But when there are at least 2 teams in the league massively underperforming that's 3 or 4 games affected for every other team in the league. If that changed and we had 7 or 8 teams really fighting it out we'd be grand and could probably take a couple of crap interpros. Theres a lot of dross in the Premiership and theres a big scramble now to gloss over that and justify their poor performances in Europe by crapping on the P14. There is a lot of dross in our league too, but we dont start blaming others for that.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,889 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    It makes a mockery of the game.

    Should a team that loses by a large margin deserve anything? My opinion is no. You shouldn't earn a point for scoring tries in garbage time when the contest is over.


    What about if they scored 4 tries at the beginning of the game and then got hammered later?...


    It's not a perfect system but it serves a purpose and keeps games alive right to the end in many circumstances. I am much more concerned with the appalling level of refereeing which ruins game after game and TMOs who appear the be related more to Helen Keller and Blind Dave than to rugby and it's laws.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    They had the same spiel before Gloucester v Connacht on BT.

    Of all the games to moan about the Pro14 that was hardly the one. Connacht have one of the smallest squads in the league and don't have the luxury of being able to rotate wholesale for league games.

    prawnsambo wrote: »
    The threat there was ending professionalism in Connacht. Not closing it down. But you clearly knew that. :p

    What's the difference, apart from the semantics involved in your statement?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    There seems to be this false idea that the premiership is a far superior product to the pro 14. I watch quite a bit of it cuz I have BT anyway and I find a lot of the matches even with rotated squads a lot more competitive/entertaining than some of the absolute ****e you see in the premiership.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,554 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Zzippy wrote: »
    What's the difference, apart from the semantics involved in your statement?
    There would still be support for Connacht clubs and development work I'd assume. Connacht as a provincial squad would continue to exist as an amateur setup. I know this is hardly something to get excited about, but it's a hypothetical situation, which never happened. A premiership club that went bust would probably disappear completely. Ground gone, property sold to pay creditors etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,895 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    We turn out more lads from our academies than the premiership sides. Our young players get tested regularly, and will progress. England have one a couple of u20 rwc's and few of these lads get their chance!
    How would the likes of Lyttle and Shane Daly progress if the provinces only played the 1st team lads.
    The premiership is not stacked with great teams. 3 or 4 of them would lag in the pro14.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,902 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    The fundamental reality is that generally you need a ring fenced organisation to have a profitable set up. Football might speak against this, but they have over a century of existence that allowed them to build to where they are today, and even with that, success is largely dependent on massive spending by owners.

    I agree with Awec that the IRFU have a somewhat unfair advantage relative to english teams in that they can manage players to their benefit. The fact the Leinster B team can still beat any other team is hardly their fault. I read a lot of post by Welsh folks on Gwlad bemoaning the Pro14 and castigating the Irish teams, with the wish to join the Premiership. Conveniently overlooks the reality that they'd be just as **** there as they are presently.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    There would still be support for Connacht clubs and development work I'd assume. Connacht as a provincial squad would continue to exist as an amateur setup. I know this is hardly something to get excited about, but it's a hypothetical situation, which never happened. A premiership club that went bust would probably disappear completely. Ground gone, property sold to pay creditors etc.

    Again, pure semantics. In a discussion about pro teams and pro leagues, to say closing down Connacht as a pro team is not akin to the IRFU walking away is just nitpicking semantic nonsense. How would Connacht continue as an amateur provincial squad with no one to play against?


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    jacothelad wrote: »
    What about if they scored 4 tries at the beginning of the game and then got hammered later?...

    They still deserve nothing because they got hammered.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,554 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    They still deserve nothing because they got hammered.
    A few crucial injuries could turn a game around like that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,895 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Welch sides are a joke! They would be shute in the premiership. The Scots would fare better, imo.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 321 ✭✭171170


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    I'm not sure all the provinces would be loss making. Leinster for example, would be close enough with the payouts from the EPCR and getting paydays from matches in Lansdowne. Presumably sponsorship would be significant as well. But it's apples and oranges comparing the IRFU's support of the provinces with the 'sugar daddies' supporting Premiership clubs. The IRFU can't walk away, rugby is its business and the provinces are a vital part of its player development programme.

    There's never much (if any) talk of French clubs under pressure financially. Gate receipts would form a big part of their income and then there's also the 'sugar daddy' factor. They've always had massive budgets, so something has to be keeping that money flowing in.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Jonny Sexton's return to Leinster from Racing92 bankrolled either by Denis O'Brien or BoI or both?

    Sugar daddy Irish style?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 321 ✭✭171170


    Why is this a problem? Because the English like to whinge about it?

    If you were a Disinterested Observer then presumably you'd understand why.


  • Administrators Posts: 53,127 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    171170 wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Jonny Sexton's return to Leinster from Racing92 bankrolled either by Denis O'Brien or BoI or both?

    Sugar daddy Irish style?

    Denis O'Brien.

    Topping up contracts with private money is a model that the IRFU have been using more often.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,554 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Again, pure semantics. In a discussion about pro teams and pro leagues, to say closing down Connacht as a pro team is not akin to the IRFU walking away is just nitpicking semantic nonsense. How would Connacht continue as an amateur provincial squad with no one to play against?
    I have no idea since it's completely hypothetical. And based in the distant past when things were a lot different. Both in the amateur and professional ranks. Back then, what were essentially semi-pro Welsh teams were competing in the Celtic league for instance. But characterising it as the IRFU 'walking away' when it's a constituent part of the IRFU we're discussing is arguably as much semantics if not more so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 321 ✭✭171170


    awec wrote: »
    Denis O'Brien.

    Topping up contracts with private money is a model that the IRFU have been using more often.

    So we're tacitly copying the English/French sugar daddy model on the qt? While still pretending that our squeaky clean provinces have an IRFU-imposed salary cap!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,554 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    awec wrote: »
    Denis O'Brien.

    Topping up contracts with private money is a model that the IRFU have been using more often.
    Players getting cars from sponsors is one such form of support that's been going on for a long time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 321 ✭✭171170


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    A few crucial injuries could turn a game around like that.

    Or a dodgy red card.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    I have no idea since it's completely hypothetical. And based in the distant past when things were a lot different. Both in the amateur and professional ranks. Back then, what were essentially semi-pro Welsh teams were competing in the Celtic league for instance. But characterising it as the IRFU 'walking away' when it's a constituent part of the IRFU we're discussing is arguably as much semantics if not more so.

    The discussion was about pro teams in a pro league. No one but you ever characterised it as walking away from amateur and grasroots rugby. That's your strawman. It was a firm proposal to shut down Connacht as a professional entity. Portray it any way you want, but you're the only one engaging in semantics here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,554 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Zzippy wrote: »
    The discussion was about pro teams in a pro league. No one but you ever characterised it as walking away from amateur and grasroots rugby. That's your strawman. It was a firm proposal to shut down Connacht as a professional entity. Portray it any way you want, but you're the only one engaging in semantics here.
    Awec called it 'closing down' Connacht. Better ask him what he meant, but notable that it wasn't him that jumped in to challenge what I said. Just you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,554 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    171170 wrote: »
    So we're tacitly copying the English/French sugar daddy model on the qt? While still pretending that our squeaky clean provinces have an IRFU-imposed salary cap!
    Is somebody actually saying that? It's kind of a nonsense if they are. It's like saying that your own employer is operating a salary cap.


  • Administrators Posts: 53,127 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    171170 wrote: »
    So we're tacitly copying the English/French sugar daddy model on the qt? While still pretending that our squeaky clean provinces have an IRFU-imposed salary cap!

    Yes, for some players. The players in question do some "work" for their backer, PR crap and the like, but in reality it's really a salary top up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,597 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    I've not problem with Irish players receiving top ups.

    I have a minor issue with Denis O Brien trying to buy back his reputation after making billions directly out of Irish people, dodging tax and thinking he can fix it all by throwing money at everything from rugby and soccer to salaries to buildings in UCD.

    No amount of philanthropy is worth more than just paying your damn taxes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,978 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Picamoles did his ACL on Saturday


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Awec called it 'closing down' Connacht. Better ask him what he meant, but notable that it wasn't him that jumped in to challenge what I said. Just you.

    Why is it notable?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,554 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Why is it notable?
    Because you're a Connacht supporter and the chips they carry are visible from space.


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